An exchange with Dan Barker

October 29, 2011 • 10:23 am

I met Dan Barker, co-president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, at the FFRF meetings in Hartford.  As most of you know, Dan was an evangelical preacher (and a writer of Christian songs) for nearly 20 years, served as a missionary in Mexico, and then became an atheist. He wrote a great book, Godless, about his conversion; do read it.

Taking advantage of my newfound acquaintance, I decided to write Dan, asking him what he thought about the accommodationist claim that promoting compatibility between religion and science could turn the faithful towards science.  Dan wrote a nice response and, with his permission, I quote our correspondence.

Be aware that these were emails not intended for publication, so our tone is informal, and I haven’t edited anything.  Thanks to Dan for his response and permission to put it up.

_______________

Hi Dan,

I wonder if I could ask you a question that draws on your experience as a preacher.  There are many “accommodationists”—some of them atheists—who claim that we have to stress that science and religion are compatible, for if they think they’re incompatible, or that science leads to atheism, they’ll reject the science. (This is particularly stressed for the acceptance of evolution.)  Yet in my whole career as an evolutionist, and in three decades of fighting creationism, I’ve never met one person who said anything like, “Hey, you know, I totally rejected Darwin, but when Ken Miller told me that evolution and religion were compatible, I suddenly accepted evolution.”

I know of many cases (lots are at Dawkins’s “converts corner” on his website) in which forthright atheism has turned people not only against their faith, but toward science, but not one instance of someone becoming science-friendly because of accommodationism.

I’m writing, then, to ask what you think of the acccommodationist argument, and whether you think comporting science and religion is of any value in moving the faithful toward science.

It was great to meet you at the FFRF convention.

cheers,
Jerry

______________

Jerry,

I think you are right. I don’t know of anyone whose views on creationism changed as a result of hearing other religionists champion evolution. (Though I don’t doubt that could have happened. Well, I think it must have happened, given that some people do go through transitional processes, within religion and out of religion.)

I think the reason you are (mainly) right is that few believers hold much respect for the authority or opinion of other believers who disagree with them theologically. Was there ever a Southern Baptist who accepted infant baptism because of the authority of the Pope? Wars have been started over much smaller disagreements than creation/evolution WITHIN Christianity.

In my case, as I was toward the end of the process of emerging from faith, I started reading “outside” my comfort zone . . . science magazines and books, philosophy, liberal theology . . . and I distinctly remember being hit between the eyes by a column Ben Bova wrote for OMNI magazine in the early 1980s: “Creationist’s Equal Time.” It’s like he turned the lens around so that I could look at myself, asking: if creationists are so keen on giving “equal time” to their views in the science class, shouldn’t they also welcome a lecture on evolution by a scientist from their own pulpit, or a chapter from Origin of the Species inserted between Genesis and Exodus? (We got to interview Ben on Freethought Radio, and he was thrilled to hear me mention how that column affected my life.)

I agree 100% with you that there is no fruitful overlap between religion and science.

During my debates on morality I point out that all of the good teachings in the world religions (which show up in all of them) are really HUMAN values: peace, love, cooperation, and so on. Those values transcend religion, and are in fact the values we use when we are judging from the outside whether we think a particular religion is good or not. (So they must not originate from within religion.) When you factor out the common teachings shared by all religions (the good stuff, the humanistic stuff), what you are left with are NOT good teachings. The so-called “religious values” that Christians, Jew, Muslims and other groups hold are divisive, idiosyncratic, and unproductive to moral discourse: what day of the week you should worship, how women should dress, what foods are permitted, whose beards can be shaved, who is allowed to be married, and so on. Thinking of it like that, there is actually no overlap between “human values” (informed by science) and “religious values” (derived from holy scripture).

Here’s an equation:

Religion + Good Works = Good Works

Solve for Religion.
db

___________

I love the last equation!

Two philosophers defend the indefensible, try unsuccessfully to pwn me and my readers

October 29, 2011 • 4:54 am

Sometimes people become so bound up in their own career paths that they’ll defend anyone who’s walking a similar path, even if they’re doing it rong. Two philosophers have just done this, guarding their turf without realizing that some dog has deposited a large poop on that turf.

Remember last week when I singled out a California graduate student who was doing a Templeton-funded postdoctoral fellowship ($81,000 a year for two years, with $5500/year for travel)?  The subject of study was ludicrous: it was an investigation of how an omniscient God could both know everything we’re going to do and yet still allow us free will to make new choices. That, of course, means that God couldn’t know anything in advance. And that’s a big problem!  Time reversal!  Process theology!

The student was, as you recall, going to investigate how to deal with this problem:

His postdoctoral research project, “Divine Foreknowledge, the Philosophy of Time, and the Metaphysics of Dependence: Some New Approaches to an Old Problem,” assesses a core Ockhamist thesis about foreknowledge. William of Ockham was a 13th century philosopher.

“The central contention of the Ockhamist concerns a point about the order of explanation. According to the Ockhamist, it is because of what we do that God long ago believed that we would do these things. That is, God’s past beliefs depend in an important sense on what we do, and thus, says the Ockhamist, we can sometimes have a choice about God’s past beliefs,” he explained. “The overarching goal of this project is to develop and assess this core Ockhamist thesis along two underexplored dimensions: the philosophy of time, and the metaphysics of dependence – both of which have seen an explosion of recent interest.”

Now I hate to pwn other freethinkers, but philosopher Daniel Fincke at the Freethought blog Camels with Hammers has decided to go after my dismissal of that Templeton-funded Travesty.  His post is called “Jerry Coyne’s scientistic dismissiveness of philosophy,” and he defends that student’s proposal as being philosophically useful. Verbose Stoic does the same in a similar post called “Coyne (and his commenters) don’t know philosophy.

One of my several objections to that stupid project was that we shouldn’t worry about how God would handle free will if there isn’t a God in the first place.  Fincke takes issue with that:

In short, it does not matter whether there actually is a God. There is still philosophical illumination from exploring the implications of a hypothetical omniscient knower for our understanding of things like the connections between belief, causation, and time.

Verbose Stoic agrees:

So, that’s the translation of what Coyne calls “gobbledygook”. Now, does it depend on, as he puts it, “three completely unsupported premises”? Not if one understands philosophy, it doesn’t, because the question and the theory is philosophically interesting even if God does not exist. There’s a reason I talked about concepts above. If we have the concept of an omniscient being, we have the concept of something that clearly knows (okay, okay, that’s debatable, but grant it for now) everything that we will do before we do it. If it is conceptually consistent with our notions of time and dependence that any knowledge of that sort would involve the determination of a belief in the past by an action in the future, that would have very interesting consequences for the concepts of time and dependence, even if no such entity existed.

Well, these folks may be philosophers (I’m not sure about V.S), but they’re dead wrong here.  The theory is NOT philosophically interesting in the absence of an omniscient being.  If there isn’t one, as I presume both of these folks agree, then the project becomes an exercise in mental masturbation, musing about what something nonexistent would do if it existed. Why is that any more valid than wondering how an omnimalevolent God could allow good in the world, or why an omnibenevolent God allows evil?  Or, for that matter, how fairies would keep their wings dry in the rain, or how Santa manages to deliver all those presents to billions of kids in only one evening. And what if you assume that God isn’t omniscient? Then the whole project is moot.

That exercise is not philosophy, it’s theology. And it’s a waste of money, for it accomplishes nothing.

Both Fincke and Verbose Stoic claims that I’m opposed to philosophy in general, and V.S. accuses me of—horrors!—scientism. Fincke Verbose Stoic:

The first [reply to Coyne] is that he has no idea if these concepts will have applications in “the real world” anymore than he can say what portions of abstract mathematics will. The second is that while he may not care about concepts, philosophy does, and unless he wants to take away all funding to philosophy and give it to science — which, I’m afraid, would definitely be scientism — it seems odd to protest funding given for post-doc work that’s relevant to philosophy just because he doesn’t personally care about the results … or, rather, because it uses a concept that he doesn’t like.

Verbose Stoic Fincke:

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: atheists need to take philosophy seriously.

My response:

1. I do take philosophy seriously, but only serious philosophy.  The kind of mushbrained lucubrations embodied in the Templeton proposal may be meant seriously, but they’re not to be taken seriously.  They involve spinning out the consequences of a nonexistent omniscient being. What’s the point?

The kind of philosophy I do take seriously is ethical philosophy—or any kind of philosophy that gives us logical tools to think about our beliefs, getting us to examine them closely and pointing out their fallacies.  In fact, one of my favorite colleges courses was a philosophy course in ethics, taught by a student of John Rawls.  And I’ve read and appreciated a fair amount of philosophy.  But I’ve studied philosophy, I know some philosophy, philosophy is a friend of mine, and, Dr. Fincke, that proposal is not philosophy.  It’s addled theology.

2.  I do indeed advocate scientism, if by scientism you mean “we accept no truths about the world that aren’t derived by logic, reason, and empirical observation.” That’s construing science broadly, but I think it encompasses what is meant by the term “scientism”. I’m proud to take that stand, though philosophers like Fincke and V.S. use it in a pejorative way. Philosophy alone cannot tell us what is true about the world.  It gives us tools to help us find what is true about the world. But that Templeton-funded Travesty tells us nothing about the world. It’s a waste of money that could be used to do something constructive, like funding scientific research.

I don’t need to go on because, if you look at the comments on Fincke’s post (there’s none on Verbose Stoic’s), nearly all of them take him to task for defending that postdoctoral proposal.  I find it very odd that a skeptic would defend a proposal to study what a nonexistent God would do if he existed. That defense can only be seen as a wider defense of the value of philosophy, and I don’t disagree that some philosophy has value.

Oh, and I’m not the only one taking flak from Verbose Stoic: so are many of you who commented.  So, stooshie, Mattapult, Parick, 386sx, jer, sally, Dominic, Tulse, and Andrew B., go over to Verbose Stoic’s post and see which of your comments have make the Stoic want to ” tear out his hair in frustration”. (I’m guessing that V.S. is male because he says he implies that he doesn’t have much hair left, but since he’s pulling the cowardly trick of attacking people under a pseudonym, I can’t be sure.)

Caturday felids:

October 29, 2011 • 4:09 am

Four quick videos this morning.

First, this video combines Catholicism, a choir, and cats.  It’s proof that good things can occasionally come from religion. It’s the Catalunia  (emphasis on “cat)” Catholic Boys’ Choir from Spain, performing the famous Duetto buffo di due gatti (“Humorous duet of two cats”) drawn from Rossini but incorporating pieces from two composers.  This is the best of many versions I’ve heard:

Second, a tabby who plays basketball. He’s good on defense, not so good on offense:

Next, a Russian cat learns to use electronic device to let itself in:

Finally, a cat with nonfunctional hind legs learns to walk on her forepaws:

h/t: articulett, John S.

More shenanigans at BioLogos: attacks on science and Giberson

October 28, 2011 • 8:24 am

If I seem obsessed with the accommodationist website BioLogos, it’s for two reasons: its fervent attempts to meld science and evangelical Christianity clearly demonstrate both the follies and failures of accommodationism, and its funding by the John Templeton Foundation shows how insidious Templeton really is. (Out of their billion-plus dollar endowment, they give 70 million dollars per year to scientists and theologians, many of them trying to harmonize science and faith.)

Yesterday I highlighted the follies of pastor Dave Swaim, who’s presenting a four-part sermon on BioLogos that supposedly promulgates that science/faith harmony. In part 3, he tried to tell us not only how to distinguish the metaphorical from the literally true in the Bible, but also made completely bogus claims about the historical truth of many parts of Genesis.

It’s gotten worse.  In part 4 of his sermon, Swaim engages in some unwarranted denigration of science.  First he takes out after plate tectonics and radiometric dating, apparently part of his strategy to show that science doesn’t have all the answers (this is, of course, another accommodationist strategy).

A couple years ago, a researcher at Los Alamos National Labs explained why our models for plate tectonics are all wrong.1 And another presented a paper questioning the veracity of radiocarbon dating.(1) Both of these tools have been foundations for the current theories of the age of the earth.

Note that the editor (probably BioLogos president Darrell Falk) apparently added the footnote (1) here (“Editor’s Note: These are fringe reports that are far outside of the realm of mainstream science”) to distance himself from the evidence Swaim is mentioning. Reader Sigmund, who brought this sermon to my attention, suspects that the tectonics model “is by John Baumgartner and is pure flood geology.”

Swaim then goes on to cast aspersions on abiogenesis, the idea that life on Earth originated as a purely naturalistic process from nonliving precursors:

And while all scientists agree that genetic mutation happens just like the theory of evolution describes, no scientist can explain abiogenesis, which is an undirected process producing the first living organism from nonliving chemicals. That’s scientifically impossible, but atheists must believe it’s true in order to exclude the possibility of God.

This is pure stupidity: scientists—not all of whom are atheists, by the way—don’t “believe” anything just to exclude God.  As I’ve said elebenty billion times, we have no a priori commitment to atheism or non-supernaturalism; we take the Laplace-ian stance, born of experience, that the invocation of gods has simply been useless and unnecessary in helping us understand nature.

In the comments section, Darrel Falk tries to defend Swaim:

I don’t think Dave was telling atheists that God is in those gaps more than any place else.  He, like me, was just expressing surprise, given the naive state of our knowledge, that atheists think they can—on scientific grounds—rule out the existence of God.

Oh dear, Dr. Falk.  It’s the lack of evidence, don’t you know? We can provisionally rule out God on precisely the same grounds that we can rule out fairies, dragons, and the Loch Ness monster.

But Falk emphasizes (and here he agrees with P.Z. Myers and others) that evidence has nothing to do with believing or disbelieving in God:

Jerry Coyne asked me one time, “Can you think of any bit of scientific knowledge that could conceivably arise in the future that would be inconsistent with your view about the existence of God?”  My answer was “no.”   Science, as I see it, is simply studying God’s activity.  The natural laws are a manifestation of the ongoing regular activity of the Spirit of God which pervades the universe.

But this, of course, is a blatant admission not only that belief in God rests purely on revelation, but there is nothing that could ever shake that belief—no fact about the world, no tragedy bespeaking God’s indifference, nothing.

At any rate, Swaim’s semon shows how closely BioLogos is skirting creationism and criticizing science, all in the name of promoting science. It’s the cognitive dissonance inherent in such extreme accommodationism.

***

Speaking of the dangers of accommodationism, here’s another: perhaps anti-science Christians won’t necessarily turn toward science if they see that evolution doesn’t entail atheism. Perhaps they also must be convinced that science isn’t connected with other values as well.  This came to my attention when Mark Mann, from Point Loma Nazarene University, wrote an essay at BioLogos, “Let’s not surrender science to the secular world,” on the anti-evangelical-mindset essay by Giberson and Stephens.

He makes two dubious but familiar accommodationist points. First, he claims, correctly, that no form of Christianity is opposed to science in its entirety:

There is no ‘Christianity’ that stands or ever has stood as a whole against science or reason. Whatever Christianity IS it certainly is an incredibly complex movement, and throughout its history there have been multiple ways that Christians have thought about the relationship between faith and reason, science and theology. This is a point I wish to unpack at greater length in a later blog, but for now it is sufficient to say that there has never been any single way that Christians have thought about the relationship between faith and reason, much less what faith and reason even mean. So to treat Christianity (if there even can be said to be such a ‘thing’) as a univocal totality is highly problematic.

That’s irrelevant, for many forms of Christianity, especially evangelical Christianity, are opposed to things like evolution and global warming, and on scriptural grounds. The point was not that Christians oppose all science: presumably many of them take antibiotics and use cellphones.   I don’t think Giberson and Stephens erred on the important issue, particularly because Giberson, who’s on board with evolution and anthropogenic causes of warming, is also an evangelical Christian.

Mann also reprises the dreary argument that the roots of science lie in religion:

The same goes for science. Is it truly or purely a secular pursuit? [JAC: Of course it is!] What are we to make, then, of the countless religious individuals who have been scientists and who have made significant contributions to our knowledge of the cosmos? Did they do so only by some kind of compromise between their faith and secular forms of knowledge? Again, the historical evidence would indicate quite the contrary. Take, for example, the Islamic Golden Age of scientific discovery (c. 750-1200).. . .

And the list of Christians who have made significant contributions to scientific discovery ever since is absolutely eye-popping: Nicholas Copernicus, Isaac Newton, Blaise Pascal, Rene Descartes, Gottfried Leibniz, Robert Boyle, Joseph Priestly, Michael Faraday, Gregor Mendel, Louis Pasteur, Lord Kevlin, Max Planck…to name just a few . . . I can, I believe, say with a great sense of confidence that few, if any, of these great Christian scientists understood themselves to be integrating their faith with secular knowledge.

Totally irrelevant again.  Everyone back then was a Christian.  To say that science wasn’t a secular pursuit but a religious one is to say that brewing was also a religious pursuit, because nearly all brewers were Christians.  Even an addled creationist can see through that argument.

What I found most interesting, though, was one of the comments: #6748, by a Christian named Alan:

It is op-eds like Giberson’s that makes me generally nervous about Biologos.  I do find much that is helpful on the website, but when I read the op-ed, it seems that the head of the organization not only wants us to accept evolution, but also the global climate change scare and the legitimacy of homosexuality and gay marriage.  I accept evolution because of the evidence.  But why mix these other issues into the pot?  Mr. Giberson, respectfully, I would suggest that you’re shooting yourself in the foot if you really want conservative evangelicals (like myself) to consider the case for evolution; as soon as they read your takes on global warming, but ESPECIALLY homosexuality/gay marriage, they will just disregard you as a politically left-leaning Christian.

This suggests that getting Christians to become pro-science isn’t merely a matter of showing that science doesn’t entail atheism.  You have to accommodate Jebus in other ways, specifically, by not accepting the idea of global warming or gay marriage.

If you’re. say, Chris Mooney, and tell the faithful that evolution doesn’t cause atheism, that might not convert them if you also take stands in favor of gay marriage or anthropogenic global warming (things I’m sure Mooney accepts).  All they have to do is “read your takes” on these issues, and their interest wanes.  Since many people who advocate science (and most accommodationists, I think) are in favor of gay rights, that accordingly diminishes their effectiveness.

All this shows is that accommodationism involves more than disconnecting science from atheism.  In fact, to convince the faithful, it seems as if you have to be largely on board with much of their social/political agenda.  And that is why BioLogos is increasingly kissing up to evangelical and conservative Christians.

UPDATE: Alert reader Sigmund points out that BioLogos president Darrel Falk has added a comment to Mann’s post that supports my contention about what the organization is up to.  Here’s part of Falk’s comment:

Our primary goal at BioLogos not to convert conservative Christians to the BioLogos point of view.  More than anything, our task is to work towards depolarizing the discussion. That, as I see it, supersedes whether people actually come to take on the BioLogos point of view.  I am more concerned that we exhibit Christian integrity in how we dialog with each other.

And Sigmund’s take:

So they’ve stopped trying to change the evangelical environment and have settled on building a nature reserve—with evangelical theist evolutionists as the pandas.


Creationists infiltrate geology meeting

October 28, 2011 • 4:46 am

Shoot me: I wasn’t aware of the Skepticblog, which is run by six people who include Steve Novella, paleobiologist Don Prothero, and Michael Shermer, but I’ll be paying attention to it from now on.

Two days ago, Don Prothero filed a report on how creationists had invaded the 2010 annual meeting of the Geological Society of America (GSA), including running an entire field trip in Colorado on which young-earth creationists, while identifying various formations as the results of “sudden deposition,” never identified their real agenda.  There were also some talks by creationists, including a bizarre presentation by Marcus Ross of Liberty University (a tipoff) on Cretaceous mosasaurs, here described by Prothero’s colleage Steve Newton:

Because most of the audience probably did not know Ross’ background, it must have been puzzling to them when the first question following Ross’ talk challenged him on how he could “harmonize this work with [his] belief in a 6,000-year-old Earth.” (This question came from University of Florida geology professor Joe Meert, who bloggedabout the exchange.)

Ross answered the question by saying that for a scientific meeting such as GSA, he thought in a “framework” of standard science; but for a creationist audience, he said, he used a creationist framework. Judging from the reaction of the audience, this answer caused more confusion than enlightenment. Ross pointed out that nothing in his presentation involved Young-Earth Creationism. But he then volunteered that he was indeed a Young-Earth Creationist.

It was a strange moment for the audience. It was the last talk of the session, and as everyone migrated into the hallway, several people asked me what had just happened, as if they had misheard the exchange.

The problem is that although these folks should be given the right to talk at meetings so long as they adhere to conventional scientific standards (and they do, although it’s a lie), they can then boast about how their “science” has been presented at important meetings.  As Prothero notes:

Sadly, the real problem here is that YEC “geologists” come back from this meeting falsely bragging that their “research” was enthusiastically received, and that they “converted” a lot of people to their unscientific views. As Newton pointed out, they will crow in their publicity that they are attending regular professional meetings and presenting their research successfully. For those who don’t know any better, it sounds to the YEC audience like they are conventional geologists doing real research and that they deserve to be taken seriously as geologists—even though every aspect of their geology is patently false (see Chapter 3 in my 2007 Evolution book). And so, once more the dishonesty of the YEC takes advantage of the openness and freedom of the scientific community to exploit it to their own ends, and abuse the privilege of open communication to push anti-scientific nonsense on the general population that doesn’t know the difference.

The good news is that the latest meetings don’t appear to have included stealth creationists—or at least they didn’t run any field trips.

Saturn’s moons

October 27, 2011 • 12:53 pm

Alert reader Diane G. sent me this amazing photo (from Astronomy picture of the day) of four of Saturn’s moons and part of its rings (be sure to click to enlarge):

Image Credit:Cassini Imaging Team, ISS, JPL, ESA, NASA

The explanation:

A fourth moon is visible on the above image if you look hard enough. First — and farthest in the background — is Titan, the largest moon of Saturn and one of the larger moons in the Solar System. The dark feature across the top of this perpetually cloudy world is the north polar hood. The next most obvious moon is bright Dione, visible in the foreground, complete with craters and long ice cliffs. Jutting in from the left are several of Saturn’s expansive rings, including Saturn’s A ring featuring the dark Encke Gap. On the far right, just outside the rings, is Pandora, a moon only 80-kilometers across that helps shepherd Saturn’s F ring. The fourth moon? If you look closely in the Encke Gap you’ll find a speck that is actually Pan. Although one of Saturn’s smallest moons at 35-kilometers across, Pan is massive enough to help keep the Encke gap relatively free of ring particles.

More information on this photo is here.

And, as Diane wrote, “Pandora does look like a potato”.  Pandora is the bright speck just to the right of the ring, and its mean radius is only about 41 km: