Yesterday’s debate between Dawkins and Chopra

November 10, 2013 • 9:50 am

I forgot to post about yesterday’s live-streamed debate between Richard Dawkins and Deepak “Quantum” Chopra at the Ciudad de las Ideas conference in Puebla, Mexico. Fortunately, it’s now been put on YouTube, and I’ve embedded it below.

The first five minutes are plenty weird (and superfluous), with a bunch of harlequins and pirates prancing about onstage. WHY? Then Dawkins, Chopra, and moderator (and organizer) Andrés Roemer enter through a picture frame. Andrés introduces them in Spanish at length. If you don’t speak Spanish and want to skip the pyrotechnics and introduction, the English part starts at 13:10.

There’s roughly an hour of discussion, and I must confess that I haven’t had time to watch it. I’ve listened to bits, and it’s the usual Chopra blathering. At about 26 minutes in, The Deepak goes on about the purpose of evolution being the “production of maximum diversity” for “that is what we see.” I suppose the purpose of tsunamis is death, then, for “that is what we see”. Deepak needs to learn the difference between “purpose” and “effect”! Richard calls him out for using a “word salad” of scientific terms that Chopra doesn’t understand.

Okay, I have to stop watching this and get to work.

For those of you who do watch it (or saw it live-streamed yesterday), weigh in below.

Chopra is an intensely irritating man, and willfully stupid—indeed, duplicitous—because his errors have been pointed out to him many times.  Of course he has a right to blather as much as he wants, but thank Ceiling Cat that people like Dawkins, Shermer, and Harris call him out for his obscurantism.  Of course some of you may feel that such debates are pointless, and I’m on the fence about that.

A theologian at HuffPo informs me that theology “is not about God”

November 10, 2013 • 7:11 am

It is with a heavy heart that I sit down at my keyboard this morning, for I must spend the next hour locking horns (see previous post) with a theologian—one suffering so severely from cognitive dissonance that he argues that theology is not about God. Something is wrong on the Internet.

The misguided theologian, David Dunn, is described by HuffPo as an “Eastern Orthodox Christian, independent researcher, lay theologian, blogger, and dad” (his website is here).  And he’s ticked off because I criticized a piece in The Atlantic by Sara Isabella Burton arguing that we all need to study more theology.  And so Dunn sat down and wrote a longish piece for HuffPo called “Theology is not about God: An open letter to Jerry A. Coyne.” It even starts with “Dear Dr. Coyne.”

I really should stop here by saying simply, “Are you nuts? Of course it’s about God.”  But, as General Patton said, all true Americans love the sting of battle, and so I must engage Dunn in a bit more detail, if for no other reason than to show how a smart theologian, who has obviously spent years in his profession, tries to justify his existence by arguing that theology is about something different from what everyone thinks.  Further, Dunn’s piece is larded with humorous deepities.

I’ll pass over Dunn’s ad hominems; he clearly doesn’t like atheists except for ones like Marx and Nietzsche (whose atheism he calls “fantastic”). But he has no use for Dawkins and the New Atheists:

As a general rule, I avoid arguments with kitchen appliances, Christian fundamentalists, and atheists who think Dawkins makes sense. But I feel obliged to make an exception in this case. You pride yourself on being a reasonable person and on giving Christian theology a fair hearing, so I feel a scholarly duty, as one intellectual to another, to critique your recent screed against Sara Isabella Burton. She wrote an article in the Atlantic about why theology is useful for humanities scholars, whether or not they believe in God. You say you have spent the past several years reading Christian theology. Thank you for your efforts. It is important that we try to understand each other, which is why I am writing, because I think you still don’t know what theology actually is.

His argument is that theology is not about God, but about people, and takes me to task for that egregious mistake:

Dr. Coyne, you are correct when you distinguish between biblical scholars and theologians. You also correctly define biblical scholars as people who study ancient religious texts. But you go off course when you add that theologians “try to figure out what God is telling us through those texts.” This description of theology makes me wonder how much you were paying attention to what Burton actually wrote. For her, “[Theology provides] an opportunity to get inside the heads of those whose beliefs and choices shaped so much of our history, and who–in the world outside the ivory tower–still shape plenty of the world today” (emphasis added). In other words, theology is not about trying to figure out the will of God from religious texts. Theology, in a sense, is not really about God at all. It’s about people!

. . . Theological studies is not about trying to figure out what God wants; it’s the study of how human beings respond to what they think God wants. That is why some theologians are atheists. To do what I do, belief in God is kind of irrelevant.

Well, that came as a surprise to me after two years of reading about theology, including theodicy, eschatology, and apologetics. What are those except attempts to analyze why God is doing what he does, what he wants, and how we should conceive of God and behave according to his will or his nature?

In fact, “studying how human beings respond to what they think what God wants” is to a large extent “figuring out the will of God from religious texts.” If it’s not, then what were people like C. S. Lewis, Whitehead, Plantinga, Karen Armstrong, Kierkegaard, Tillich, and so on doing? Theology is certainly more than studying how people act when they believe in God. The latter involves psychology and sociology, and while those may form a part of classical theology, you won’t find a lot of psychology and sociology in Aquinas or Augustine.

Now if you argue that theology is “about people” because it involves arguments about God filtered through the brains of theologians, then yes, it is about how humans respond to the idea of God. But Plantinga is not about sociology; he’s about apologetics: how we know God exists, why it’s rational to believe in him, and why God allows things like suffering. These people don’t write a lot about how the minds of medieval monks were affected by their beliefs.

And really, how many atheist theologians are there? I can’t think of one, except, perhaps, Shelby Spong.

I did in fact look up “theology” in the Oxford English Dictionary and found the following two definitions (the first ones):

 a. The study or science which treats of God, His nature and attributes, and His relations with man and the universe; ‘the science of things divine’ (Hooker); divinity.

b. A particular theological system or theory.

Where are the “responses of people” in there?

Perhaps Dunn spends his time, as does Burton, pondering the history of how people act when they think that there’s a God, but that’s certainly not the bulk of theology—at least not the sort I’ve read. What I think Dunn is up to is avoiding all the exegesis and apologetics because he senses that the arguments for God and the interpretations of his will are weak, confused, and conflicting. It’s much easier, and less controversial, to talk about how religious people have behaved—and martyred themselves—through history.

Dunn’s cognitive dissonance, resolved by arguing that theology isn’t about God, leads him down some strange paths:

Theologians sometimes focus exclusively on a narrow swath of the tradition, in the past, but many of us also work to explain to others how our tradition should shape the way we act in the present. Maybe this seems pointless to you. After all, the New Atheist mantra is that religion is dangerous. Okay! Let’s go with that for a minute. Let’s suppose the final solution to religion is to do away with it, but that does not really solve any immediate problems. Trying to convince Ayman al-Zawahiri (the current head of Al-Qaeda) to become an atheist is like trying to turn water into wine when you don’t believe in miracles. It is a pointless exercise. A Muslim theologian who can teach others about orthodox Islam is a more effective opponent of religious extremism than an irate evangelist for New Atheism.

Does that last sentence strike you as strange? After all, it is the imams and Islamic clerics who incite and justify much of the violence of extremist Muslims.  We don’t see a lot of “Muslim theologians” decrying the censorship of The Satanic Verses or the violence that followed publication of the Danish cartoons. And how stupid is it to claim that we atheists are trying to change the minds of peolpe like al-Zawahiri, Pat Robertson, or Ken Ham? We aren’t going after them, but after the doubters and the people on the fence.

Dunn appears to see theology as a branch of history: the branch that explains how people behaved because they believed in God. Where I come from we call that “psychology”:

We do read historical documents (often in the original languages), study artistic and archaeological evidence, engage ancient and contemporary philosophy, and utilize a variety of other critical theoretical tools, but theology is not really about religion as sets of ideas, artifacts, or cultural-historical phenomena. (That is more the purview of religious studies departments.) Religion, as you rightly say, is something people kill and die for, but you only half understand why that is the case. History, anthropology, psychology, etc. can help explain the psychopathic corruption of religion as an instrument of murder, but it cannot do justice to Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., Teressa of Calcutta, or St. Maria of Paris. For the record, I am not trying to make this a competition between religion and atheism or faith and science. My point is that only theology can begin to unravel the mystery of how these human beings could suffer and die for the love of a God they cannot see, and for people they can only believe are God’s handiwork. Ideology will make murderers, but it cannot make martyrs. Only love can do that! Only love can make a person give her life for the condemned, embrace the untouchables, and expose injustice by suffering violence without retaliation.

Only love can make martyrs? Really? Does he truly believe that? Because if he does, he’s ignorant of all the history behind martyrdom. Did the people of Jonestown kill themselves out of love? Did the 9/11 bombers act out of love? One might consider other factors, including ideology, group pressure, indoctrination and, yes, as in the case of the 9/11 “martyrs,” hatred. And, most of all, the belief that if you die for your faith—the right faith—you’re going to join God, Jesus, or Allah in the hereafter. These things are not love, but groupthink, fear, and indoctrination.

Now you might be able to twist the word “love” in such cases so it becomes the same thing as “conformity,” “indoctrination,” or even “hatred,” but that’s Orwellian doublespeak. But theologians are good at that.

And then comes Dunn’s most hilarious deepity:

Christians believe that God is love. So we academic theologians are not really studying God, because you cannot see love.

That is so amusingly puerile that it merits not a response, but a horselaugh. Suffice it to say that millions of believers throughout the world see God as more than the emotion of “love.” If Dunn simply means that God is a loving God, then he’s committed a deepity—one that completely sabotages his argument. This kind of argument wouldn’t pass muster in one of our introductory philosophy classes.

Dunn finishes off by reiterating his thesis, as if repeating it several times makes it true. (Geneticist J. B. S. Haldane’s armamentarium of wrongheaded arguments included what he called Aunt Jobiska’s Theorem: “What I say three times must be true.”) Dunn also adds a bit of snark:

Maybe God is imaginary. Maybe love is too. So what? The imagination matters. It shapes civilizations and the saints (and even the tyrants) they produce. Understanding what people imagine God to be demands an interdisciplinary approach that is only preserved in theological studies.

One day, New Atheists may convert the world to reason and usher in a thousand years of humanistic peace. When that happens, sure, let’s get theology out of colleges and universities. But until then, the academy needs theology precisely for what you fail to understand about it: theology is about people. So if theology does not matter, then your problem is not with an “imaginary” God. It is with human beings – marvelously flawed humans! Perhaps you wish, Dr. Coyne, that we were imaginary too.

I would suggest that if you want to understand why people martyr themselves over an imaginary God, you need to study psychology, especially ideology, indoctrination, and wish-thinking—not just theology. By all means let us teach religious history and the philosophy of religion in the academy. But what we don’t need are entire schools of theology, staffed largely by believers who occupy themselves with justifying God’s ways to man. Schools of theology do not, for instance, teach courses on “why people believe crazy things.” We don’t need schools of theology any more than we need schools of Marxism, homeopathy, or pseudoscience. Those schools are a waste of money and brainpower. Put the biblical scholars in history departments, and add a couple of philosophers of religion to the philosophy department. But deep-six most of the theologians.

In the end, any sensible person who actually reads theology can see that it is based largely on the idea that God exists. Given that belief, it falls to theologians to explain what kind of God it is, how he acts in the world, and how we should behave according to those lights. For it is God’s will, and his perceived nature, that determines how believers behave.  If you don’t believe that, look at how Catholicism has promoted the denigration of women and gays, played hob with people’s sex lives, and tortured them with threats of hell.  And don’t tell me these have nothing to do with God or his nature.

Liberal theologians claim the opposite, but the basis is still a belief in God and an interpretation of what his existence means for us. For this is what theologians are paid to do.

Maybe Dunn isn’t that kind of theologian, but he has no basis for claiming that he represents the whole baying pack.

Vintage boots

November 10, 2013 • 5:23 am

One of the most famous of all “factory” cowboy boots was the “Golden Angus,” made by the now-defunct Acme Boot Company (no, not run by Wile E. Coyote). This design was made in the fifties and sixties, and was described, as in the ad below, as “the most beautiful Western boots ever created.”  They featured a bull head inlaid with leather, including golden-colored horns and cheeks. The design and gold-leather explains the boot’s name:

Golden angus

They weren’t of course the most beautiful boots of all; there were plenty of custom makers back then turning out not only prettier boots, but sturdier ones. The Golden Angus was, after all, mass-produced. Still, they’ve assumed an iconic status among boot collectors, for they were unique among factory boots in their creative design.

And so I was excited to find a pair for virtually nothing on eBay, and in good condition, too.  The “pulls” on the boots (those straps on the top that help you put them on) have printing inside that leads me to think these were made in the very late 50s or early 60s. At any rate, they’re over fifty years old.

More art-loving boot collectors call them “the Guernica boots” for obvious reasons:

P1040777The bull in Picasso’s Guernica (1937):

guernica_all

Note the unusual “toe bug” (the stitching near the toe; each make has his/her own identifying pattern):

P1040778

 

Sunday: Hili dialogue

November 10, 2013 • 3:58 am

“Fitness”, you may recall, is the black tomcat who lives with the boarders upstairs. Fitness hates Hili and chases her at every opportunity. They are kept apart. This photo was taken by Fitness’s owner when Hili had climbed up (for the first time) to the upstairs window in Fitness’s digs.  (“Fitness”, by the way, is the cat’s real name, and in English, for he was found abandoned in the rain outside a health club.)

A: You are spying on Fitness again!

Hili: Don’t tell me that you are not curious what the neighbours have for dinner.

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In Polish:

Ja: Znowu podglądasz Fitnessa.
Hili: Nie powiesz mi, że ciebie nie interesuje co sąsiedzi mają na obiad.

Petition to Amazon about books advocating child abuse

November 9, 2013 • 2:26 pm

As one reader pointed out in a comment on my earlier post, Change.org has a petition to Amazon asking it not to carry books that advocate violence toward children—that is, corporeal punishment.  I see this as an issue of imminent harm, which trumps free speech, and had no compunction about signing the petition. It asks Amazon to review its books and not carry ones that advocate beating children. The language seems reasonable:

Currently there are several books available to buy on Amazon (both .com and .co.uk) that advocate, endorse and advise on parenting methods that involve the physical abuse of children. Examples of titles include To Train Up A Child, by Michael and Debi Pearl; Shepherding a Child’s Heart by Tedd Tripp; and Don’t Make Me Count to Three by Ginger Plowman.

Such books, and others like them, promote behaviour which is abusive of children. All of the above books advocate the use of a rod and other implements on children under one.

Such behaviour is abusive to children, and it is also ‘offensive’, which is contrary to Amazon’s Content Guidelines.

It may well also be illegal, as it seems to go far beyond the ‘reasonable chastisement’ currently sanctioned by law in the UK, (where this petition originated) and in many US States. Not only is beating on a regular basis with a rod likely to leave a mark, which is illegal in the UK, it is also likely to amount to inhuman or degrading treatment, which is a breach of human rights.

We wish Amazon to urgently review their decision to stock any book or other product which advises the physical abuse of children.

There are a lot of readers here, and if you agree with that sentiment then you know where to go.  There are about 16,600 signers, and they need eight thousand more.

You can see a list of notable signers, including experts on child abuse, here.

OMG: Kosher cat food!

November 9, 2013 • 2:24 pm

This is a new one on me. After I just told you that cats are atheists, reader Lorena sent me a picture she took of a can of cat food she bought for her ailing cat (she thought it would stimulate his appetite):

koshercat

So there are Jewish cats as well as atheist cats! I don’t know where in Talmud it mandates kosher food for pets, but I’m sure some reader will inform me why we need such comestibles.

This is real, by the way: check out Evanger’s kosher pet food site.

I wonder if they have gefilte fish flavor. . .or whether Hili (a confirmed atheist) would eat this.

_______

UPDATE: I asked Lorena if her cat actually liked this stuff, and she replied “Thanks for posting my picture!  The cat liked the food but was unimpressed with its kosherness, since he also stole bacon off my plate.”  There is still no evidence, then, of any religiosity in cats.

She included a link to a post on halal cat food (“The lunach of Islam #14,998 (or thereabouts): Halal cat food”) that has some absolutely hilarious stuff in it. Here’s part of an ad from a British firm that makes this food:

Those that have attempted to comply with their faith’s requirement by buying fish based products are doubly concerned on discovering, that even in this supposedly harmless product the coating used on the food itself contains haram meat and even pork.

Muezza Pure, our premium brand of cat food (minimum 39% meat content) is the UK’s first Halal pet food for cats. It gives Muslim cat owners the choice and opportunity of purchasing a 100% Halal pet food for their cats, thus avoiding the need to compromise their beliefs by handling Haram food stuffs in their home.

Muezza, of course, was the name of Mohamed’s mythical cat.

The good Christians of Kentucky deface my posters again

November 9, 2013 • 12:20 pm

I’m speaking at Murray State University in Kentucky on Nov. 21 and 22 (stay tuned for BBQ reports) under the aegis of the Murray State University Student Organization for Reason and Science. The head of that group just told me that the posters for one of my talks are being removed and defaced.  This is exactly what happened when I spoke—about evolution—at the University of Kentucky at Lexington several years ago.  The students sent me a photo of a defaced poster in which somebody—I’m betting a believer—ripped the “is true” part off of my book cover:

Damaged poster, Murray State

This doesn’t really anger me, but I’m sorry that the students have to replace the ones that were taken down.  And I’m always aware that this kind of acadmic vandalism, at least against evolution, is based on fear: fear that  people might hear the anti-Biblical truth about science. And that’s exactly why I prefer to speak in places like Murray, Kentucky. I am talking about evolution, but the talk touted above is on accommodatinism—a far more incendiary topic. You never feel the oppressive pervasiveness of religion in America more strongly than in the South.

The students, bless their hearts, have asked me if I’d like some campus security there in case there’s trouble.  I don’t really need that (though when I spoke in Augusta Georgia they provided a guard packing heat), but I told them I’d let the campus cops figure out if it was really necessary.

___

p.s. “Freed Curd” Auditorium sounds like it was named after a compatibilist yogurt.