Although people argue that you can’t bring creationists to accepting evolution simply by showing them thge facts, this Radiolab audio shows that that isn’t an inviolable truth. The podcast tells the story of a pious Muslim who studied evolution to try to debunk it, because she realized that evolution was undermining her faith, and if she could show that evolution was bogus, her faith would remain sound. Well, you know what happened next: she learned the irrefutable facts of evolution and gave up her faith, losing her “tribe” in the process.
This transformation is not unique. As I’ve said before, at one of James Randi’s “Amazing Meetings,” I met two Orthodox Jews, both of whom told me (independently) that they abandoned their faith because, after reading Why Evolution is True, gave up their pious Judaism (many Orthodox Jews reject evolution). Both were sad because, having embraced evolution, they were rejected by their family, but they stood firm in their acceptance of science. Such people are very brave, for the love of truth outweighs not only their love of superstition, but their need for a social network.
This 40-minute recording is the fascinating story of a well-known paleoanthropologist, fossil collector, evolutionist, and science popularizer, Ella al-Shamahi. A Muslim in full jilbāb and in an arranged marriage, al-Shamahi studied evolution at Imperial College London so she could understand why it was false. Instead, she became a convert.This is from is the Wikipedia page on al-Shamani:
As a child, Al-Shamahi was a devout Muslim who wore the hijab from the age of seven and began missionary work throughout Britain at the age of 13. Her biology studies at Imperial College London were undertaken with the eventual aim of disproving evolutionary theory, but she soon came to believe that the theory was correct and her later studies would further distance her from her faith. As of 2025, she was describing herself as a “non-practising Muslim”.
Al-Shamahi characterizes her political views as “wokey-progressive — definitely left-wing”, but she has also called for the scientific field to be more accommodating of those who are right-wing or devoutly religious and for discussions to be more nuanced.
In the podcast al-Shamahi describes two moments that were pivotal in getting her to embrace evolution:
A.. One was in Drosophila! She describes an experiment in fruit flies in which, she said, she saw the very beginning of speciation: two groups of the same species that began evolving reproductive barriers between each other. She doesn’t describe the experiment, but my best guess was the intriguing experiment of Bill Rice and George Salt, published in Evolution in 1990 (see also Rice 1995 ). In this experiment, flies were divided into groups by being running them through a complex maze that involved their having to make four “chocies”: light vs. dark (phototaxis), up versus down (geotaxis), faster versus slower development time, and whether they preferred the odor of acetaldehyde or ethanol. This produced eight groups of flies, of which Rice and Salt selected only from the two extremes. After 35 generations, they got nearly complete separation of the two groups with no intermediates, which is the beginning of the type of reproductive isolation called “habitat selection,” which of course impedes gene flow because the two groups don’t encounter each other. There was no mating discrimination shown when the flies were tested in the same chamber. Now this is a lab experiment, and the flies likely would merge if selection were stopped, but it shows nevertheless that a form of impeded gene flow could evolve in only 35 generations (a couple of years). This was convincing to al-Shamahi, though I’d argue that there are many other types of evidence that are more convincing (island biogeography, the fossil record [she does mention that under “stratigraphy“], and other stuff in my book.
B. The other bit of evidence, which I don’t discuss but Ken Miller has, is the finding that in “retrotransposons“—nonfunctional bits of DNA that move around in the genome—mutations in humans and chimps are in identical positions in the jumping DNA. That similarity implies a close relatedness of humans and chimps: they must have shared some of these “jumping genes” that were present in a common ancestor. Since the DNA is nonfunctional, there’s no adaptive explanation that a creationist could devise to explain for this identity.
Both cases led to al-Shamahi’s epiphany, and, accepting it, she says “I knew I was going to have to leave my whole world.” (20:40 on the podcast). Fortunately, her sisters supported her views, but she didn’t talk about her new feelings to her friends, for she “did not know how to exist in a secular world.” In the end, however, she found community among secularists and forged a career based on evolution. She still says that “gentle does it” with creationists, and she tries to bond with them rather than convince them. In the end, though, that is her aim, however she achieves it.
She hasn’t spoken in detail about her “conversion,” so the podcast at the bottom is fascinating, for al-Shamahi is eloquent and funny despite her travails. Here’s its introduction:
Ella al-Shamahi is one part Charles Darwin, one part Indiana Jones. She braves war zones and pirate-infested waters to collect fossils from prehistoric caves, fossils that help us understand the origin of our species. Her recent hit BBC/PBS series Human follows her around the globe trying to piece together the unlikely story of how early humans conquered the world. But Ella’s own origins as an evolutionary biologist are equally unlikely. She sits down with us and tells us a story she has rarely shared publicly, about how she came to believe in evolution, and how much that belief cost her.
Special thanks to Misha Euceph and Hamza Syed.
EPISODE CREDITS:
Reported by – Latif Nasser
Produced by – Jessica Yung and Pat Walters
with help from – Sarah Qari
Fact-checking by – Diane Kelly
and Edited by – Pat Walters
To hear the episode, and I recommend you do, click below and then click “listen” (there’s also a transcript). Note that there are several longish commercial interruptions.

I found a video of al-Shamahi recorded a month ago in which she also describes her conversion, and I’ve started it at that place. But the whole thing is worth watching,
Or go here to hear her dispelling some myths about human evolution in a 9-minute video. After watching it, I wish I were a Homo floresiensis.
h/t: Robert.







