Why Evolution is True is a blog written by Jerry Coyne, centered on evolution and biology but also dealing with diverse topics like politics, culture, and cats.
It’s been a while since I’ve featured the photos of Colin Franks (website here, Instagram page here, and Facebook page here), but we have a doozy today: a bunch of beautiful photos of a beautiful animal: the red fox (Vulpes vulpes). As you see, wild ones come in different colors. Colin’s notes are only the sentence below; I asked about locations, and he’s keeping it a secret to protect the foxes.
Here’s another batch of photos, but this time it’s Red Foxes!
I love this photo of a kit staring at a bee:
This color chart from Deviant Art, made by CJC NightFox, says there are three colors of wild red foxes, and many more in the domesticated breeds. We seem to have red, silver, and crosses in the photos above.
We’ve reached the Ides of May: Wednesday, May 15, 2019. It’s National Chocolate Chip Day, but of course you don’t eat them on your own (unless you’re stoned). It’s also International Conscientious Objectors Day, which I’ll celebrate because I was one.
The big news is of course the odious Alabama abortion bill, but we’ll get to that soon. In the meantime, Matthew calls to our attention the birthday of geneticist Mary Lyon, who discovered X-chromosome inactivation in mammals (including us, of course), which explains the patterns of calico and tortoiseshell cats in the picture below.
X-chromosome inactivation, the genetic process that leads to coloration like calico or tortoiseshell cats, was discovered by Mary Lyon FRS. Lyon was born #OnThisDay in 1925 pic.twitter.com/Cg2TMNA8MB
On this day in 1536, Anne Boleyn, Queen of England, was tried and convicted of treason, adultery, and incest. She was condemned to death and executed on May 19. In 1618, Kepler confirmed the third law of planetary motion (which he’d previously rejected): “The square of the orbital period of a planet is directly proportional to the cube of the semi-major axis of its orbit.” Got that?
On May 15, 1648, the Treaty of Westphalia was signed, ending the European Wars of Religion and the Thirty Years War. On this day in 1776, the Fifth Virginia Convention told its delegation to the Continental Congress to propose a resolution about becoming independent from Great Britain. This was the precursor to the Declaration of Independence.
On May 15, 1817, according to Wikipedia, occurred the “opening of the first private mental health hospital in the United States, the Asylum for the Relief of Persons Deprived of the Use of Their Reason (now Friends Hospital, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania).” What a name! In 1869, the National Woman’s Suffrage Association was formed by Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton.
On May 15, 1905, the city of Las Vegas was founded when 110 acres of what would become its downtown were auctioned off. It was incorporated as a city six years later, and now it’s the weirdest city in the U.S.
On this day in 1928, Mickey Mouse made his first appearance in the Walt Disney cartoon “Plane Crazy“. Here’s the cartoon: Mickey appears 32 seconds in, but note the assiduous duck before that:
On this day in 1941, Joe DiMaggio began a hitting streak that would last for 56 consecutive games. It’s the longest hitting streak in modern baseball, with Pete Rose’s 44-game streak in 1978 coming second. Here’s a four-minute video about the streak, which experts say is one baseball record that may never be broken:
On this day in 1948, when the British Mandate for Palestine expired, Israel was invaded by Egypt, Transjordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia, beginning the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Remember that, ye Israel haters! And on May 15, 1963, the final launch of the Mercury Mission, Mercury-Atlas 9, carrying astronaut Gordon Cooper, did 22 orbits of Earth in 34 hours. This was the last time an American astronaut went into space alone.
On this day in 1972, Alabama governor George Wallace was shot (and paralyzed) in Laurel, Maryland while campaigning for President. Finally, for you footie fans, it was on this day in 2004 that Arsenal F.C. went unbeaten in an entire English Premier League campaign (38 games), claiming (along with Preston North End F.C.) the title of The Invincibles.
Notables born on this day include L. Frank Baum (1856), Pierre Curie (1859, Nobel Laureate), Arthur Schnitzler (1862), Katherine Anne Porter (1890), Mikhail Bulgakov (1891), Richard J. Daley (1902), Eddy Arnold (1918), Mary F. Lyon (1925), Jasper Johns (1930), Brian Eno (1948), and Jamie-Lynn Sigler (1981).
Those who expired on May 15 include Emily Dickinson (1886), Edward Hopper (1967), June Carter Cash (2003), Jerry Falwell (2007, almost buried in a matchbox), and Carlos Fuentes (2012).
Meanwhile in Dobrzyn, Hili is acting out a Biblical story:
A: Why are you looking back?
Hili: Because they say: “Don’t look back”, but what if a pillar of salt is chasing you?
In Polish:
Ja: Czemu się tak oglądasz?
Hili: Bo mówili, żeby się nie oglądać za siebie, a co będzie jeśli jakiś słup soli zacznie mnie gonić?
And nearby, on the site of his future home, Leon enjoys the Spring with Elzbieta:
From Heather Hastie. The first is 4.5-minute spoof interview with Melania Trump. It’s a bit mean-spirited, what with mocking her grammar and blaming the whole Trump mess on her. But the song is good.
From reader Barry. You think atheists are maligned in the U.S.? Look at what happens in Egypt!
This poor Atheist guy who got humiliated on a TV show in Egypt was forced to flee the country after getting death threats. He has now moved to Germany. Just listen to these idiots. Egypt still live in the Dark Ages with no hope in sight. Read more here > https://t.co/r9v6z2WJ1epic.twitter.com/iCUYkFwJxk
— The Caring Atheist (@Caring_Atheist) May 14, 2019
Tweets from Grania. The first one shows what a real cat lover would do:
Someone on my road has a cat face hole in their glazing so their cat can look through pic.twitter.com/Kx06uqNiyb
Why are these “sacrifices” comparable? Of course the guy is a Republican. . .
"There will be some sacrifice on the part of Americans, I grant you that. But also that sacrifice is pretty minimal compared to the sacrifices that our soldiers make overseas that are fallen heroes or laid to rest," @SenTomCotton on trade war with China pic.twitter.com/lqlEZtaeBs
Only in Australia: a big honking spider takes a feathertail glider: a marsupial gliding “possum”:
Twitter #wildoz geniuses: what kind of spider can capture and devour a feathertail glider? Specifically, who is this furry and magnificent beast?! Found on my sister's property about 1/2 hour inland from Coffs Harbour… @dieterhochuli@LizyLowepic.twitter.com/7xlDapBNGC
OK, zoomed in this gives you a better angle on the spider. They didn't want to get to close and disturb it – they figured it had worked pretty hard for the win…Apparently fed for 2 days straight. pic.twitter.com/P1axecyslF
Civil disobedience is the act of breaking the law to make a statement about politics or justice, trying to effect social change by calling public attention to your grievance. An essential part of the act is to accept the legal consequences of breaking the law. The difference between those who practiced civil disobedience in the 1960s to bring attention to segregation and today’s Woke Students is that the latter want to do the crime without doing the time. In other words, they think they should be able to vandalize, assault, and harass people in the name of their ideology—without facing legal consequences.
Another essential part of civil disobedience is in its name—it’s civil. You don’t practice violence or destruction, for those practices detract from any public approbation you’ll get.
Here are two students who did face the consequences but think they shouldn’t have. Further, they’re not really practicing civil disobedience in the strict sense, as their crimes were theft on one hand and assault on the other.
The first video (sent by reader Su) is that of a University of North Carolina student who is pro-choice (I’m on her side there), stealing an anti-abortion sign from conservatives (I’m not in favor of that). A cop arrests her (she lies throughout: “I have no ID,” “I was going to give the sign back), and he treats her with respect, even informing her that those opposed to her views have free speech and a right to display their signs on campus. She still thinks she’s somehow immune to arrest. I have little sympathy for her—or rather, I sympathize with her views but not her actions.
Both films come from the “Created Equal” site, an anti-abortion group that sets up anti-abortion tables and specializes in showing pictures of aborted and dismember fetuses. Their methods are repugnant, but irrelevant to the point I’m making, which is about the right to peaceably promulgate your opinions and take your medicine if you break the law.
Here’s an enraged woman, also at the University of North Carolina, who screams at and then punches somebody from the Created Equal display. From Epoch Times:
The woman was identified as Jillian Ward, a pro-abortion feminist and aspiring journalist, according to Fox News. She was arrested by citation and charged with non-aggravated assault, reported the Daily Caller. It is unclear whether Ward attends the university.
If you want to break the law to make a political point, be ready to face the consequences of your action. I was once arrested for making a political statement, but peacefully, and I was prepared to go to jail had I not been given conscientious objector status during the Vietnam War. The heroes of the civil rights movement never committed assault on people or damage to property: they made their point quietly and were still beaten by billy clubs, thrown in jail, and bitten by dogs. It was their acquiescence to their attacks and their legal punishment that inspired the country and helped bring reform.
Civil disobedience doesn’t work if you hurt people or damage property in your “statement”, for you get no sympathy for breaking the law by damaging people and property. These two women above are the consequences of an entitlement that wants to censor free speech and doesn’t want to accept the consequences of illegal “censorship.” They are having tantrums, not effecting social change.
Scott Aaronson writes about the the Kolmogorov option (suggested alternate title: “Kolmogorov complicity”). Mathematician Andrey Kolmogorov lived in the Soviet Union at a time when true freedom of thought was impossible. He reacted by saying whatever the Soviets wanted him to say about politics, while honorably pursuing truth in everything else. As a result, he not only made great discoveries, but gained enough status to protect other scientists, and to make occasional very careful forays into defending people who needed defending. He used his power to build an academic bubble where science could be done right and where minorities persecuted by the communist authorities (like Jews) could do their work in peace.
Let’s be like Kolmogorov and do some good within the entirely reasonable restrictions that the social justice movement places on us. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Identity politics doesn’t seem quite true, but it’s not doing too much harm, really, and it helps keep the peace, and lots of people like it. Just ignore this one good prosocial falsehood that’s not bothering anybody, and then you can do whatever it is you want.
I disagreed, of course, and you can see my answer to this comment at the first link above. But truly, I’m astounded at someone claiming that we should shut up and just go along with the social justice warriors and identity politics so we can get on with our quotidian tasks. I want the Democrats to win in 2020, and I don’t want the lunacy of some Leftists to scotch that possibility. I can still do science while criticizing what I see fit.
I forgot to add, however, that even doing a particular kind of science can land you in trouble, as happened with Nikolai Vavilov during the Lysenko era in the Soviet Union.
I’ll call “Kolmogorov’s” attention to this post, so feel free to respond to him/her. But be polite, of course.
There’s not much news today except for what you already know: Trump is imposing ridiculous tariffs on China, which will, contrary to his stupid claim, cost U.S. citizens more. Tariffs are never a good idea. And Doris Day died. The big news from Chicago is that all ten of my ducklings are still alive and thriving, which goes a long way toward counteracting the bad news.
In the absence of news, here’s a personal rant, which I’ve made before. Commercial scientific publishers like Springer and Elsevier are well known for gouging both scientists and university libraries by charging huge amounts for subscriptions to journals, for “publication charges” (what you pay when you publish a paper in their journals), and for online reprints. I recently discovered, for instance, that the University of Chicago Library, which is not impecunious and is well stocked with journals, can’t afford to carry Nature Ecology & Evolution, an important journal in my field. That’s because its publisher, like all Nature journals, is Springer, and is charging more money for the journal than our library can afford. (This is not a predatory journal or an obscure one; it’s one I would read if I had access.)
As I wrote in 2016, the profit margins of commercial science publishers are obscene. My beef at that time, which still holds, was this:
I’ve long complained about the bloated profits of commercial scientific publishers, which can be as high as 40%. That’s obscene if you realize that other companies which actually make a product make far less money, that the scientific publishers get that money by not only charging authors to publish there, but having their scientific papers refereed and improved by reviewers who are paid nothing. Those reviewers—and I’ve done plenty of gratis reviewing for journals like Nature and Current Biology, as well as for journals issued by less greedy publishers—are done out of a sense of “public service”. Profit-hungry journals like to play on our sense of duty and public service, all the while raking in huge profits by using scientists to do the journal’s job for free. And remember that these journals charge people for access to papers that are, by and large, funded by government grants—by the taxpayer. It’s reprehensible that the public who funds such research is denied access to the results of that research. (Some funding organizations, however, allow journals to charge for access for only one year. But even that is too much.) Commercial publishing of taxpayer-funded research is a travesty unless the profits, beyond those needed to pay salaries and run the company, are plowed back into more science.
But young scientists, who need to make their reputations by publishing in well-known journals like Cell and Nature, have no choice, for their hiring, tenure, and promotion often depend on what journals accept their papers. Sadly, many of the “high quality” journals are put out by greedy publishers. And it’s not just young scientists, either: organizations that hand out grants often look at where you’ve published your papers before deciding whether to give you further funds.
I’ve complained about this before, especially about the company Elsevier, one of the greediest scientific publishers around (see here). Eventually I, and 16,383 other scientists (the number is growing), pledged to do no more work for Elsevier until they adopted reasonable business practice instead of gouging scientists. Even editors have fought back: as I reported last November, “all six editors and 31 editorial board members of Lingua, a highly reputed linguistics journal that has the misfortune to be published by Elsevier, have resigned in protest of high library and bundling fees and of Elsevier’s refusal to convert the journal to open access.”
Companies like Springer and Elsevier are, unlike society journals or university-published journals, purely capitalistic: their aim is not to disseminate science, but to make money. And they do. Here are the profits I reported in the post above; note that I can’t be sure that these figures hold now, nor that they were absolutely accurate in 2016. But this is what I had:
Want to know the obscene level of profits these companies make? From Sauropod Vertebrata Picture of the Week, we have a listing of the profits of well known technical scientific publishers. These are from 2012 and represent profits as a percentage of revenue:
Here’s a comparison of profits from various companies, including nonscientific ones, listed on Alex Holcombe’s blog in 2013; they’re compared to profits of other companies. [JAC: I believe these are profits as a percentage of revenues.]
As pointed out in the article I’ll shortly summarize, Elsevier made a profit of $1.13 billion dollars in 2014—1.3 times the entire annual budget of the Howard Hughes Medical Institute.
One way that companies like Springer fatten their purses is by getting scientists to do reviewing for them, and then paying them nothing or almost nothing. What this means, in effect, is that scientists are working as no-wage slaves so that commercial scientific publishers can make more money. Here’s an email I got yesterday from an editor at Springer (names changed to protect the capitalists):
From:[NAME REDACTED] Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 2:50 PM To: Jerry Coyne Subject: Population Genetics-Historical Fiction
Dear Prof Coyne,
Greetings from New York. Please allow me to introduce myself as an editor in Life Sciences at Springer. As you may know, Springer is an international publisher of scholarly research and reference works in a variety of academic disciplines.
We have recently received a book proposal entitled [TITLE AND DESCRIPTION OF BOOK REDACTED]. Given your academic interest in this field, I wonder if you are available to review this unique project for scope and suitability for publication (2 pages plus sample chapters). I am delighted to offer any ebook of your choice from Springer (valued at $250 or less) as a token of my gratitude. In the event that you are unable to review for us, please feel free to suggest a colleague who might be a suitable alternative.
I look forward to hearing from you, and thank you in advance for your time and consideration.
With best wishes, [Name REDACTED]
Note what they’re offering. In return for several hours of work (I’d have to review a short book proposal but also “sample chapters”, which are long and take time), I get an ebook of my choice. Now what does that cost Springer? Nothing! Once an ebook is produced, handing out one free copy to a reviewer has a marginal cost of zero. (And I don’t even read books online.) In other words, they’re asking me to put in several hours of work in return for bupkes. Nobody else who invested so much time in acquiring scientific expertise would be expected to work for nothing. But journals like this one do, counting on our “sense of duty as scientists.” (Some companies do offer real books, but often of a value less than that of a reviewer’s time, especially given that the cost of a book to a publisher is about half what you’d pay in a bookstore or online.)
Well, I will and do exercise a sense of duty for journals that aren’t run for profit, but not for companies like Springer. I wrote them this reply:
Sorry, but the offer of an e-book, which costs you virtually nothing, is hardly reasonable payment for what would be at the minimum several hours of work on my part. I should make at least as much as a plumber, don’t you think?
And I don’t have an e-reader.
I consider such offers pure exploitation of academics so that your already obscenely large profits (34% of revenue) can become even larger. When you offer a decent stipend instead of e-books, then maybe you’ll get more takers.
I’ll add that your journals cost so much that our library at the University of Chicago cannot even afford to take Nature Ecology & Evolution, which is a journal right in my area.
I can see why you make so much profit: you pay book reviewers virtually nothing.
Today we see the return of insect and arthropod photographer Mark Sturtevant. Mark’s notes are indented:
Here are some pictures from last summer. Enjoy!
First up are two damselflies. The first is the lovely Aurora damselfly (Chromagrion conditum). This fairly large damsel is one of the species that I can easily identify in the field. It habitually holds its wings slightly open, much like members of the ‘spreadwing’ family of damselflies, although the aurora damsels belong to a different family that do not typically hold their wings that way.
The second damsel is the common but personally challenging Eastern forktail damselfly (Ischnura verticalis). I have the hardest time getting acceptable pictures of these very small damsels. This is in part because they are extra shy, and in part because their delicate green color is easily saturated by the flash. I had to really fuss with the settings to get this picture. It seems that the majority of Eastern forktails around here have parasitic mites on them.
Rotting logs that are covered in mosses and fungi are worth a careful look. On one occasion I came across such a log with several small and very active flies, as shown in the next two pictures. These are rust flies (Chyliza sp.). Their activities kept me entertained for a long time as the males, like that in the first picture, were busy defending their small patch of moss from rival males. But any female, like the one shown in the following picture, would be pretty much tackled in an effort to mate. This activity would cause nearby males to charge in as well. The females always refused these entreaties, and so perhaps they were already mated.
Among the little rust flies were other insects, including this larger Xylophagid fly (I think Xylophagus sp.) shown in the next picture. It seemed much calmer but also a bit snooty as it loomed motionless over the busy busy busy rust flies. The drama on this one log was so engrossing that I was later quite unable to stand up for a time. My feet had fallen asleep!
Earlier this year I had purchased a batch of Luna moth cocoons (Actias luna) through the mail. Once spring was moving into summer, I set them out in a bug cage to have them emerge, and I would then photograph some of the adult lunas. One day I heard a distinct scritch scritch scritch sound from the cage where the cocoons were held. A moth was working its way out! I retrieved it and watched the magic.
What was curious was that I could see that the moth inside the cocoon was using some sort of short blade somewhere on its front end to cut its way out of the cocoon. I had no idea that they could do this. In any case, after a time the moth freed itself and crawled out into my hand. I hung it up on a wreath to let it expand its wings. The next pictures show some of its transformation from small wet thing to ethereal beauties. Interesting how the wings change colors as they expand. Pictures of fully formed adults will be reserved for the next posting, as I don’t want the folks here to be ‘over-lunafied’.
In a place I call the Magic Field, the ground is heavily marked with entrances of various arthropod burrows. Among these are large openings to burrows belonging to very large wolf spiders. Because they stick around all summer in the same burrows, I become rather attached to each of the spiders that I find. I will check on the known locations of several of them during my return visits to the field. But of course such spiders will have their enemies. One day I came across an impressively large black wasp that was exploring the ground. I did mistake it at first for our local ‘great black wasp’, a common species that preys on katydids. But from this picture I realized that the antennae and the sutures on the thorax identify this insect as a spider wasp. This is one of the ‘blue-black’ spider wasps in the genus Anoplius, but it is difficult to identify which species from the pictures I have. It was evidently hunting for ‘my’ wolf spiders. Of course this plays out with the wasp paralyzing the spider and feeding it to their young.
Which brings me to the final subject: one of the burrowing wolf spiders in the Magic Field. This is Geolycosa missouriensis. Most of the time they are not visible except by shining an LED light down their burrow. But on some occasions they are inclined to sit at the entrance to their burrow. Of course approaching them makes them hide, but if one stays very still at the entrance for a few minutes, camera aimed, the spider will eventually peek back out, as shown in the final picture. It’s a fan of big spider wasps, I am sure!
It’s Tuesday, the cruelest day: May 14, 2019. It’s National Buttermilk Biscuit Day, a wonderful American breakfast breadstuff that should be culturally appropriated by the entire world. It’s also Israel Independence Day, marking the day in 1948 when Israel declared independence. Expect pushback from Israel-hating students throughout the U.S. and UK.
On this day in 1607, Jamestown, Virginia was settled as an English colony. It was the capital of Virginia from 1619 until 1699. On May 14, 1643, Louis XIV, aged only four, became the king of France after his dad (Louis XIII, naturally), died. The Sun King reigned for 72 years and 110 days, the longest of any European monarch so far (but Queen Elizabeth may surpass him—she’s reigned for 67 years. On this date in 1796, Edward Jenner administered the first smallpox vaccination, though there are descriptions of others having used the method before. Here’s how Wikipedia describes what Jenner did after observing that milkmaids (who got cowpox) were subsequently immune to smallpox.
On 14 May 1796, Jenner tested his hypothesis by inoculating James Phipps, an eight-year-old boy who was the son of Jenner’s gardener. He scraped pus from cowpox blisters on the hands of Sarah Nelmes, a milkmaid who had caught cowpox from a cow called Blossom, whose hide now hangs on the wall of the St George’s medical school library (now in Tooting). Phipps was the 17th case described in Jenner’s first paper on vaccination.
Jenner inoculated Phipps in both arms that day, subsequently producing in Phipps a fever and some uneasiness, but no full-blown infection. Later, he injected Phipps with variolous material, the routine method of immunization at that time. No disease followed. The boy was later challenged with variolous material and again showed no sign of infection.
On May 14, 1804, the Lewis and Clark expedition, setting out to explore the American West, departed from Camp Dubois, traveling up the Missouri River. They did not return for two years and four months. On this date in 1925, Virginia Woolf’s famous novel Mrs Dalloway was published.
And this is unbelievable. Wikipedia says that on this day in 1939, “Lina Medina becomes the youngest confirmed mother in medical history at the age of five.” FIVE YEARS OLD (and seven months) AND SHE HAD A BABY! She gave birth via a Caesarian section, never revealed the father’s identity, and is still alive at 85. Here’s a video about her:
Finally, on this day in 1948, Israel was declared to be an independent state and formed a government. The very same day, the country was attacked by neighboring Arab states, triggering the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.
Notables born on this day include Thomas Gainsborough (1727), Otto Klemperer (1885), Sidney Bechet and Ed Ricketts (both 1897), Bobby Darin (1936), George Lucas (1944), Cate Blanchett (1969; 50 today), and Mark Zuckerberg (1984).
Here’s “Six Studies of a Cat” by Gainsborough, drawn between 1763 and 1769 (chalk on brown paper).
Those who passed to the Great Beyond on May 14 include Carl Schurz (1906), August Strindberg (1912), Emma Goldman (1940), Sidney Bechet (1959, died on his birthday), Rita Hayworth (1987), Frank Sinatra (1998), B. B. King (2015), and Tom Wolfe (last year).
Meanwhile in Dobrzyn, the dialogue between the beasts was a bit opaque, so I asked Malgorzata for an explanation:
Hili starts to say something in a usual way (“you see” here may mean “you understand”), but Cyrus interrupts her and answers that he does see (probably meaning that he is not blind). Such instant understanding makes Hili think about peripatetics, this very wise group which used to hone their wisdom while walking. And Hili and Cyrus are walking.
To wit:
Hili: You see, my dear… Cyrus: I see. Hili: And that’s the wisdom of peripatetics.\
In Polish:
Hili: Widzisz, mój drogi…
Cyrus: Widzę.
Hili: I na tym polegała mądrość perypatetyków.
From Facebook—a bad choice of words. At least they aren’t Catholics!
Two tweets from Heather Hastie. This cat would make a great goalie!
Really clever. I wonder if he can make one that quacks.
Jose Vitancio Umeres demonstrates his Peruvian whistling vessels. When water is added to a chamber inside the vessel and the sculpture is rocked back and forth the shifting air creates sound patterns. Depending on the construction different animal sounds can be imitated. pic.twitter.com/VS1NFjb35z
I’ve put a video of the “snakebird’s” fishing technique and lifestyle below the tweet:
What has wings, a snake-like neck, & the tail of a turkey? Meet the Anhinga. It's called the "snake bird" for its long, serpentine neck, or the "water turkey" for its fan-shaped tail. When hunting in the water, it uses its sharp bill as a spear to stab fish. [📸:Good Free Photos] pic.twitter.com/4tmDlldIa3
— American Museum of Natural History (@AMNH) May 13, 2019
Look at those crazy chicks!
This question is a bit ambiguous, as “real” could mean either “real and divine” or “a regular person who gave rise to the Jesus story.” Still, go see the answers.
Atheists only: do you believe Jesus was real, that Jesus is a myth, or are unsure either way?
