Helen Pluckrose on Elon Musk and the faux Hitler Salute

January 24, 2025 • 9:30 am

I was quite surprised three days ago when I argued that Elon Musk’s “Hitler salute”  at the post-Inaugural rally simply seemed to be a gesture of exuberance made by an overexcited and awkward man and was not a Hitler or Mussolini salute. He said, when he made the “Sieg Heil”, that “My heart goes out to you,” and, indeed, touched his heart three times while extending his arm twice. See the video below, noting also his awkward dance moves when he also pumps and extends his arms:

It amazed me that this caused a fracas not only in the media, but on my own website, with a lot of people asserting unequivocally that it was Musk’s tribute to Hitler/white supremacy or that he was trolling the Left by doing something that would anger them. Musk himself has denied the allegations. From the BBC:

Some on X, the social medial platform he owns, likened the gesture to a Nazi salute, though others disagreed.

In response, the SpaceX and Tesla chief posted on X: “Frankly, they need better dirty tricks. The ‘everyone is Hitler’ attack is sooo tired.”

But of course to enraged “progressives” on the Left (and do I need to explain again that when I put that word in quotes, it’s perjorative?), Musk’s denial means absolutely nothing. He was lauding Nazis!

My interpretation of the “Hitler salute” explanation is that it is made by people who feel they must demonize their political opponents in the worst way possible, even though there’s a more charitable explanation. And we have to be more charitable in the future, including admitting when our opponents do things that are actually good.

Further, as the ADL (the Anti-Defamation League, an organization that combats anti-Semitism) explains, people are touchy after Trump’s inauguration, and this explains why some could mistakenly interpret an “awkward gesture” as a Hitler salute. One would think that the ADL’s take would give people pause, but not wokesters like AOC, who, in what some called “Jewsplaining”, tells the ADL that they were actually defending a Hitler salute:

This leads to the second issue with the Hitler take: it makes Leftists look loony, ready to demonize their opponents and lose their heads over something that at worst is dubious and at best (and most likely) is simply an “awkward gesture.”  Even the ADL realizes that the Hitler take is not going to reduce antisemitism and, in my view, it simply reduces the credibility of the Left in general.  Surely ludicrous interpretations of gestures as Hitleresque bespeaks a mindset that helped cost us the last election.  So, like Helen Pluckrose in her website post below, I agree that people have to stop this nonsense.  Even if you don’t like Musk, he was not giving fealty to Hitler.  If Democrats don’t regroup and get sensible, we’ll keep on losing elections.

So I’ll quote Pluckrose in extenso, and if you don’t like what she says, take it up with her.  I’m not arguing any more about this issue; I’ve pondered the Hitler argument, dismissed it as a misguided and kneejerk overreaction (Pluckrose calls it “deranged”) and I’ll move on.  But click below to read.

Pluckrose is no fan of Musk, but calls for a thoughtful rather than a reactive rebuttal of his views. Quotes from her piece are indented.

This makes it especially important that those who are concerned about his influence over the policies of the most powerful country in the world and the largest forum for public political discourse, and the impact the combination of these factors can have on the rest of the world conduct themselves as serious and responsible adults in their critiques of him.

Admirers and supporters of Mr. Musk who believe these concerns to be unfounded range from thoughtful, well-informed politically engaged people who support his general views and overall aims and believe that the benefits his expertise, his stances and his influence bring outweigh any personal foibles to utter lunatics, wedded to ideological narratives divorced from reality and engaging in tactics common to both the woke left and the woke right. It is important that his thoughtful and serious critics engage in good faith with his thoughtful and serious supporters and address the reality of his influence in ways that focus on what is true, what is significant and what has real impact on the world.

It is already the case that Musk’s least thoughtful and serious supporters on the woke right typically shut down any criticism of him by claiming it to be a symptom of “Musk Derangement Syndrome” (MDS). This accusation, when made spuriously, functions in a very similar way to the woke left’s use of the DiAngelo style concept of ‘whiteness’ (an unconscious drive to uphold the systems of white supremacy for one’s own political benefit). That is, it functions as a Kafka Trap in which any attempts to deny that one’s motivations in criticising Musk’s or DiAngelo’s ideas are caused by either of these pathologies are evidence of the pathologies. By formulating concepts of MDS or whiteness which contain within them the premise that any denial of them are evidence of the derangement or unconscious bias skewing the speaker’s judgement, it preemptively shuts down the possibility of any critique being legitimate. This kind of circular reasoning is not persuasive to reasonable, ethical people who care about what is true and share the stated aims of Musk to oppose censorship and dismantle governmental corruption or of DiAngelo to oppose racism and dismantle racial prejudice (my readers are likely to support both) but think that doing so in an evidence-based and consistently principled way is essential

Nevertheless, if one wishes to counter claims that any criticism of Musk is a manifestation of Musk Derangement Syndrome, it is important not to be deranged.

She gives a number of social-media examples of this “derangement”, and then analyzes interpretations of the gesture, all three of which followed my post:

. . . . even if there is a possibility that [Musk] was deliberately making a Nazi salute, mindreading him as doing so and responding in a hyperbolic and overwrought way is not remotely helpful whatever the motivations were. Consider the reasonable responses people are likely to make to such interpretations in any scenario.

  1. Musk was simply illustrating his heart going out to the people he was speaking to.

People will see the woke left doing its “Everybody who disagrees with me is a Nazi” thing again and the perception that it should not be taken seriously is strengthened.

  1. Musk was trolling with the gesture and trying to provoke this response in order to illustrate how deranged ‘the left’ is.

Well done. You played right into that and consequently reduced the credibility of left-wing critiques of Musk including from those of us who are not deranged.

  1. Musk really does have sympathies with Nazi ideology and intended to convey that he will influence the Trump administration in that direction.

This would be highly alarming and indicate a need to seriously and carefully scrutinise his policy recommendations and shore up your credibility so that you are taken seriously should you find indications of it. The worst thing to do is shriek “Nazi” spuriously and increase the tendency of reasonable people to assume that somebody being accused of being a Nazi has simply said something considered problematic using the tortuous reasoning of the Critical Social Justice Left and ignore it rather than have a look to see if they have, in fact, expressed views compatible with a genocidal antisemitic and/or ethnonational ideology.

Stop it.

There is never a good time for hyperbolic, overwrought and, yes, deranged accusations of Nazism, fascism or far-right beliefs and intentions based on little to no evidence, but of all the times when this is a terrible idea, this is probably the worst. The Trump administration is in power, Elon Musk has significant influence on it, the power and influence of X as a platform for news has never been higher and policies that impact not only Americans but the rest of the world are already underway. This is a time to be serious grown ups and carefully, thoughtfully and honestly scrutinise both policy decisions influenced by Elon Musk and the impact of his social media platform on the state of political discourse and what everyday people who vote and influence culture believe to be true and ethical. It is a time to be particularly conscientious when evaluating the views and actions of Musk, give him credit for anything positive and beneficial he achieves in an ethical way, and present any concerns that arise in a serious, well-evidenced and well-reasoned way.

If there is reason to be concerned about the power, influence and character of Elon Musk (and I suspect there is), the people who will need to be convinced of this will be serious, ethical, thoughtful, American conservatives who care about what is true and what is morally right, who are currently of the view that Musk is beneficial to their great nation (and hopefully the world) and are absolutely sick of the authoritarian irrationality and spurious name-calling of the Critical Social Justice left.

I beg you, please stop being deranged.

Helen Pluckrose knows whereof she speaks, as she’s been a critic of “Critical Social Justice” for a long time, including her book with Lindsay, Cynical Theories (yes, Lindsay has gone a bit off the rails after the publication).  Her take on this whole kerfuffle is sensible and, I think, correct.

The best criticism is often satire, and here’s some: first a take from the Babylon Bee, and then a Musk interpretation of the often-used “Hitler goes nuts” scene from the 2004 movie Downfall:

85 thoughts on “Helen Pluckrose on Elon Musk and the faux Hitler Salute”

  1. So AOC actually wrote this about the ADL? “Just to be clear, you are defending a Heil Hitler salute that was performed and repeated for emphasis and clarity.”

    She is one or a combination of the following:

    Not a serious person
    Not particularly bright
    An arrant liar, who knows this was not a Nazi salute, but is trying to mine the lie for political gain. As a corollary to this, she must not think much of her supporters.

    Whatever she is, she is NOT the future of the Democratic Party. We need to back a different horse.

    1. AOC claims to be clarifying matters (‘just to be clear’) when in reality she is confusing them. She claims the ADL were ‘defending’ a Heil Hitler salute. In fact the ADL denied that it was a Heil Hitler salute. Can she really not tell the difference between defending something and denying it?

    2. She is using a time honored and very common tactic: “just to be clear”, i.e., I am about to state unassailable facts that you are not allowed to disagree with. What I say is right, and you are wrong, no debate allowed. The fact that you have taken a contrary position irretrievably condemns you.

    3. AOC, Elizabeth Warren, Hillary, Obama, Harris, and others have all used the same gesture. I suppose they are all ‘Nazis’.

  2. I believe that Pluckrose’s most important point is that concern over the arm movement is trivial compared to Musk’s influence on policies that could greatly benefit him and his companies, as well as his personal views fueling Trump’s impetuous nature.

  3. Hypocrisy has really become a hallmark of the Left hasn’t it? They constantly accuse everyone of racism, to the point of bordering on racial hysteria, whilst engaging in the most egregious anti-white racism. They reflexively accuse everyone they don’t like as being Nazis, whilst engaging in the most vicious anti-semitism we have seen in modern times. It just goes to show as long as it falls under the banner of their criterion of “Social Justice”, then you get a free pass to participate in the very injustices they so enthusiastically claim to be defending.

  4. AOL is not (hopefully) the future of the Democratic Party. She introduced the bogey of “genital inspection “ into the kerfuffle about Sarah McBride’s use of appropriate toilets in the Capital. The Republican ruling that McBride could not use women’s restrooms but would be limited to sex-neutral toilets and her own private toilet did not involve a threat of genital inspection, and AOL suggesting that it did was pure demagoguery.

  5. I’m unsure about whether Elon Muck purposely did a Nazi/Roman salute, but I don’t particularly blame people for claiming he did.

    Musk’s history of trolling, chumming with pro-Russian Nazi apologists, bigging-up far right political groups/people like the AfD, Orban (both of whom are pro-Russia – a common theme), etc., and indulging in conspiracy theories, gives those who think he performed a fascist salute, a certain amount of ammo.

    Conversely, he’s a strong defender of Israel and Jews, and is anti-Hamas. So why would he perform such as bizarre “salute”?

    Musk is his own worst enemy, and he knows this, and he doesn’t care.

    1. Absolutely Rich. Most commentators in Germany, for example, made reference to Musk’s support for the AfD in German elections, including mention of the fact that AfD leaders were in Washington for the inauguration. Yes, people can misinterpret the gesture in this case, but the reality is that people in some political environments find it is quite plausible that Musk would make a Nazis gesture or see it as an accurate reflection of his political leanings.

      1. I agree with Jerry on this one. As for the AfD, I doubt that Musk understands German politics. They are definitely a far-right party, but closer to Trump than to actual Nazis. My guess is that, like with Trump, he agrees with them on some things then appears to support them whole-heartedly, at least in public. That doesn’t mean that he agrees with them on every issue. Similarly, I’m sure that he doesn’t agree with Trump about electric cars.

        If we’re in for a period of conservative rule, it’s mainly the fault of the woke and those who go along with them or at least don’t call them out. (And I’ll say it again: I think that even harmless “pronoun play” is a slippery slope which should be avoided.) Their newest idea: Trump isn’t just dismantling DEI, but the plan is to go back to Jim Crow. I am no fan of Trump, but I seriously doubt that. There is enough to criticize about Trump as it is; inventing fake news as if it strengthens the case actually weakens it.

    2. Agreed. No one knows what was going through Musk’s ketamine-addled brain when he made the gesture. To me, arguing that it wasn’t a Nazi salute is just as pointless as arguing that it was. Narcissists love attention and that’s just what he’s getting.

      1. There’s plenty I don’t like about Musk but a “narcissist”?

        I understand he’s a high-functioning autistic. Could that explain this better?

          1. I don’t know enough about him to judge.

            I don’t see making Twitter free speech is a bad thing.

      2. Yes. The likelihood is that he was trolling people, which he loves to do. But who knows what he was actually thinking, if he was thinking at all. Frankly I couldn’t care less.

  6. I am always concerned about assigning intent to another person’s actions and even words. Giving Musk the benefit of the doubt, it was a spurious action in the moment.

    Having said that Musk must be aware (in hindsight) of the similarity of his gesture to the salute. I am not from the US, so has Musk distanced himself from this particular form of fascism?

    1. Well, ever since, in typical Elon style, he’s been posting lots of ridicule of Nazi comparisons and re-Tweeting jokes about the whole affair. A typical example would be this Tweet and the one it is replying to. See also this one. Effectively, he is treating the whole “Nazi salute” intrepretation as ridiculous and not worthy of a formal rebuttal, which is indeed appropriate.

      1. There wouldn’t be much point in having the world’s largest stash of FU money and not saying FU, eh.

  7. My wife, a normally sensible person, is convinced it was an intentional Nazi salute and there’s no talking her out of it!

    I agree, it makes the left look loony.

      1. Stalinists, Fascists — you can’t identify the players without a program. If you like long historical novels, check out Vasiliĭ Grossman’s Life and Fate. It’s sort-of the War and Peace of the Greater War (a.k.a. WW-II).

  8. Whether he meant it or not, he has undoubtedly owned it. Every subsequent post has been crafted to ambiguous perfection. People are upset (does it matter why?), and he could have helped with a simple “that is not what I meant”. Instead, he is reveling in their distress. Not a Nazi, just an awful way for a human being to act.

    1. Exactly. He has denied nothing. If the gesture wasn’t trolling his follow-up certainly is.

    2. I think I’m one of the few who isn’t taking sides in this psychoanalysis of Elon Musk as to what he “really” meant. So this:

      “I am not a _______” is never convincing. It just reinforces prior opinions because the speaker engaged with it. I would never let myself be bullied by a mob into saying something like that…unless of course someone who controlled my livelihood told me to. Especially since it wasn’t anything he said, Mr. Musk doesn’t owe anyone an explanation except if his boss wants one. Absent that, he’s enjoying watching his opponents make fools of themselves.

  9. Two nights ago, Chris Cuomo interviewed Musk’s father on NewsNation to ask about this and other matters. It was an interesting interview, particularly in that you could see some of Elon’s quirks in his father’s demeanor—in attenuated form. When asked whether Elon’s gesture could have been a Nazi salute, his father laughed (a bit strangely) and said that such an act was preposterous. Musk’s father, apparently, was an opponent of apartheid when he served in government. It looked to me like Elon was simply overwhelmed with emotion and that his gesture—while crisp and seemingly purposeful—was nonetheless simply awkward. Anyone seeing him jump around on stage like a child can understand that the man isn’t quite as buttoned down as most people are.

    We’ll probably have many opportunities to tune our understanding of Musk, now that he is such a prominent figure in Trump world. Time will tell.

  10. Perhaps AOC and her histrionic ilk would care to provide a list of approved gestures. I wonder if Musk could get by with Churchill’s “V” sign. Or not, because “progressives” don’t like Churchill (knocking down and/or throwing paint on his statue) and would be all too easily predisposed to claim that the “V” stands for the Nazi V-1 and V-2 rockets?

      1. [pedantry]
        Oh, and the the V-1 was not a rocket but a pulsed-jet cruise missile.
        [/pedantry]

        Not that that made being killed or maimed by one any different. However many did did get shot down.

        And IMO anyone visiting Munich should check out the Science Museum, particularly for its standing V-2 exhibit. Standing next to a V-2 made me feel very small and definitely creepy.

        1. Many captured V-2s and rocket scientists were brought to the United States where they formed the nidus of the strategic rocket program and later the space program.
          So no discussion of the Vengeance weapons is complete without Tom Lehrer.

          One commenter noted that von Braun’s biography was entitled “I Aim for the Stars.” Mort Sahl riposted a sub-title, “But sometimes I hit London!”

  11. These arguments ignore Musk’s long history (and family history) of support for far-right organizations in the US to the tune of 100’s of millions of dollars and many other countries including the neo nazi German AfD and defending specific British fascists. After purchasing twitter (for $44 billion) he changed its restrictions which flooded the space with neo nazi accounts, some of which Musk reposts. Even ignoring all of this, he has before given the “my heart goes out to you” gesture, saying the words while making a heart symbol with fingers of both hands over his heart and then throwing open his arms. In this case he made a textbook perfect roman salute that thrilled many neo nazis around the world. He knows the difference. He is not Schrödinger’s idiot, simultaneously a brilliant engineer and businessman but stumbled into a perfect roman salute when attempting a kwaii gesture.

    1. AOC must be a Nazi. After all, she has been highly critical of Israel and has a history of misleading and inaccurate statements about the conflicts in Gaza and the Westbank. Clearly she aligns with Palestinian leadership, who is in fact Hamas, who are the closest thing to actual Nazis today.

      Further, she favors the woke left racialist view of the world, which divides humanity into discrete racial groups and ranks them on a scale based on moral righteousness, with “people of color” at the top, whites at the bottom, and asians somewhere in the middle. Jews are also considered a “race” in this scheme and appear to down at the bottom of the ranking these days among the left.

      So…anti-Jew and favoring a racial hierarchy….who is the real Nazi then, AOC or Elon?

      For the record, I don’t think either of them are Nazis. Just as AOC’s criticism of Israel and her tendency to view the world in reductionist racial terms overlaps with what a Nazi would think on these matters does not make her a Nazi, neither does Elon’s support of far right causes like immigration control make him a Nazi.

      I’m just pointing out how easy it is to demonize any politician that you disagree with as a “Nazi” if you are sufficiently motivated and not given to critical examination of your own biases.

    2. To Mr/Ms. Swain: I am SO SO glad that you know what Musk’s intention was: to thrill neo-Nazis around the world. My mind is at peace now that you’ve ignored his clumsy dancing around on a special occasion for him and are SURE that it was a neo-Nazi gesture.

      Sorry, I’ll take Pluckrose’s analysis over yours.

    3. I can only add that I don’t know of any dispositive evidence that he is a brilliant engineer and businessman. Even if he was either, he can certainly also be very awkward and bumbling.

      1. There’s plenty of evidence that he is not an engineer. It’s fairly well documented that he isn’t even a good computer programmer.

        It’s undeniable that he has built up two companies into multi-billion dollar businesses somehow, but I think that was luck rather than being a brilliant business man. Tesla isn’t doing so well anymore and Musk’s record at Twitter is abysmal.

        I think I can citer plenty of negative (I hate the word “dispositive”) evidence about both assertions but Musk is undeniably a genius at grifting.

        As for the “Nazi salute”. I think he is trolling. We are giving him exactly the reaction he wants.

        1. I reject your view that it is just “luck”. What on earth do you mean by that? The guy had the insight to realize that if we really want to go into space, we need to have reusable parts, recoverable rockets, do it cheaply, and do repeated launches to get the bugs out.

          It makes me laugh to see people attribute Musk’s success to accident, as if the man had no managerial talent or visionary qualities. LUCK?

          There is no need to reply. LUCK? You may not like him, but to deny his talents is deeply, deeply misguided.

          1. Yes. And I would add that he has put together businesses that support his big innovative ideas such as making better batteries and lots of them to support the ev’s. His command of supply chain and speed with which he can hire the right people and keep them in place and most importantly focus them on understanding and solving unique problems is no accident or luck. Except that if one defines luck more deterministically as happening when opportunity meets preparation. Musk creates the opportunities and identifies needed preparation…ie he fully creates that “luck” himself.

          2. I am lucky to have the talents that I have … in both senses of the word.

            In a deterministic or indeterministic world, it is a matter of luck whether we are brilliant or not, good-looking and tall or not, born into money or not … etc. etc.

          3. we need to have reusable parts, recoverable rockets, do it cheaply, and do repeated launches to get the bugs out.

            To me, this sounds like words from a snake oil salesman.

            Didn’t the say he wanted to take DOGE to Mars? The department of government efficiency, to Mars?? The man loves trolling.

            I couldn’t care less, but I do think it was a nazi salute. Not because he is a nazi but because he was trolling, maybe because his support for AfD has been in the news lately. Either way it was of very bad taste.

  12. Many on the identitarian left argued that he fully intended it to send an overt Nazi signal as a threat of what was to come while others opined that it was a coded gesture that would be recognised as such by fellow Nazis (often implied to be ubiquitous among Trump supporters).

    I think the claim that Musk deliberately gave a nazi salute is seriously undermined when this part is considered: how credible are these motivations?

    The first one only makes sense if you already believe the subset of the US population who are American Nazis is very large, very powerful, very visible, and very open about admitting “yup, we’re Nazis all right.” The gesture then acts as a call to arms, with a willing audience enthusiastically responding and Musk proudly admitting that the salute was ushering a return to German-style fascism.

    Clearly not true. He denies it, his supporters deny it. They’re not all doubling down and going Full Nazi.

    Instead, we presumably have to believe there’s a huge groundswell of secret Nazis hiding in the shadows, biding their time, pretending they’re not Nazis but recognizing during this massively televised Presidential inauguration a sly, subtle little dog whistle that totally flies under the radar of the unsuspecting general American public … a Nazi salute. Way to blow our cover, Musk.

    It doesn’t make any sense. What would be the point of a threat?“Musk deliberately gave a nazi salute because … and then they’re going to … and then they’ll …” just starts falling apart early.

    1. I shared PCCe’s previous post on this subject on Facebook, saying I agreed with his take. A few friends were furious. One of them informed me that Musk is OBVIOUSLY a Nazi because he supports the AfD.

      In response, I posted a link to an article from the Brookings Institute, a (so far as I can tell) well-regarded and non-partisan think tank specializing in the social sciences, whose author, a German, says that most AfD members are not far right; that though a sadly significant minority of their members are neo-Nazis, overall they run the gamut from center to far-right.

      Friend replied that he’d heard AfD leaders on BBC radio, and that was enough evidence for him.

      Another friend asked him what Nazi ideas the AfD people he’d heard had expressed.

      He called the question “stupid” and said, “You wouldn’t expect them to ADMIT they’re Nazis, would you?”

  13. I can never get enough Downfall parodies.

    Screencaps from videos or short-snippets are nothing more than selected quotation and should be viewed as likely misleading.

    Here is a video of French President Macron doing the same stupid hand on heart salute.

  14. I have good news for Leftism :

    Leftism’s perpetually perfect, secret weapon – over 100 years in development :

    Dialectical Political Warfare

    Make no mistake – Hegel’s Left knows how to win the battles every single time – the dialectical ratchet merely needs to turn one… little… click.

    #Kant
    #Rousseau
    #Hegel
    #CriticalConsciousness
    #Struggle
    #Criticism
    #UnityOnANewBasis

    I’m glad Pluckrose picked up on the Woke Right.

  15. Two observations: 1. On Musk’s gesture: Dr. Coyne’s analysis seems spot on. People who voted on the losing side of the election are upset and looking for scapegoats to throw into the volcano since they were unsuccessful at throwing the election’s winner into one. Primates, you just gotta love us.
    2. Progressives like AOC are marching left, in lockstep, desperately seeking to create a utopia that resembles the socially just world they envision, controlled by themselves and people who look like the people they want to elevate to the top of the status ladder while folks who were born into progressively identified “oppressor” groups roll in the mud competing with each other for any remaining resources. Except for progressives themselves who, if born into “oppressor” groups, may get a pass as allies of the movement. And this philosophy is identified with “liberalism”? In what universe?

    1. So true. The progressives like AOC have ruined the left. It’s not just the US either.

      People are voting right or not voting at all to avoid voting for the progressives (Trudeau is a prime example in Canada).

    2. The modern Left, whether you regard “progressive” as a state of Grace, a pestilence, or an unintended but acceptable consequence, is anything but liberal.

  16. I think the hysterical verbiage about Mr. Musk’s hand gesture reflects two, very familiar factors on the political Left.
    (1) An obsession with gestures per se: woke behavior consists of little else. Back in the 60s, for example, there were young people who (like John Jacobs of the noisier part of SDS) thought that calling oneself a guerilla fighter was the same as being one. Today, that would perhaps qualify for the label of “trans-guerilla”, and would perhaps qualify for a special personal pronoun.

    (2) Sturgeon’s Law.

  17. I have observed for many decades the response from Progressives, Socialists, and the Left in general if you call someone or something “Marxist” or “Socialism,” to wit: “You don’t know what socialism is. That is not socialism.”

    The curating of Marx is strict!

    Yet … they throw “fascism” around like a virus: “Everything outside the curriculum and alumni code of the Frankfurt School is fascist.”

    Elon Musk is not Fascist. More important: he is not a collectivist.

  18. While I harbor personal reservations about Helen Pluckrose due to certain unprofessional conduct I’ve observed online, these sentiments are distinctly separate from my appreciation of her intellectual contributions.

    I concur wholeheartedly: it’s increasingly evident that attempts to ascribe malicious intent to political adversaries frequently backfire, undermining the accuser’s credibility.

    In response to those who sought to defame him, Elon Musk issued a tweet that cleverly mocked those who endeavored to shame him:

    “Don’t say Hess to Nazi accusations!
    Some people will Goebbels anything down!
    Stop Gőring your enemies!
    His pronouns would’ve been He/Himmler!
    Bet you did nazi that coming 😂”
    https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1882406209187409976.

    The tweet was not mocking the Holocaust itself but rather satirizing those who trivialize its profound seriousness by wrongly labeling individuals as Nazis, employing a series of puns with references to infamous Nazi figures.

    There exists a viewpoint that any humor, regardless of its intent, which references the Holocaust should be off-limits. However, in this instance, I believe Musk was justified in highlighting the frivolous way in which figures like AOC and others have diminished the Holocaust’s gravity. It is their casual invocation of the Holocaust to further political agendas that truly warrants public scrutiny and critique.

    1. Chris Cuomo interviewed Musk’s father a few night’s ago. Musk the elder said that Elon has Jewish ancestors on his mother’s side of the family.

    2. “[T]he frivolous way in which figures like AOC and others have diminished the Holocaust’s gravity.”

      Spot on. This is the worst aspect of her criticisms (and those of others here).

      Do other readers follow @tracewoodgrains on twitter? Libertarian law student, married gay man, former Mormon, former producer and researcher for “Blocked & Reported”. Has been on a run of posts today about the progressive disdain for broligarchs and other high achievers (Musk being the current bro-du-joeur). “I want a Democratic Party that understands and admires greatness.” Links to a Ross Douthat (yes, I know) column about why left-of-centre parties are losing young men.

      https://x.com/tracewoodgrains/status/1882783009042297268

  19. I often question when I hear that AfD is a far-right or fascist party, and other comments like that. Their “Manifesto For Germany” is here: https://www.afd.de/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/2017-04-12_afd-grundsatzprogramm-englisch_web.pdf
    I see that they are against many leftist stances, but it also seems that they favor free expression and free markets and reduced state intervention. They are pretty firmly against Muslim immigration into Germany, and against immigration in general.
    I guess it comes down to who’s calling AfD fascist?
    Many “experts” were calling Trump and Republicans fascists and racists, so that indicates to me that AfD may be just the German version of the Republicans. If they were fascist, they would favor government control of business, not a hands-off approach to the market (fascism is basically a socialist system). My point being that just because some German experts are calling AfD fascists and those same experts are calling Musk’s arm motion a nazi salute may indicate bias on their part (at best) or a strong attempt to reduce the power of those on the right to secure power for their party on the left.

    1. Given the (intentional) globalization of the American culture wars and given the prevailing groupthink among the Establishment leadership and culture-producing class throughout much of the West, I think skepticism is always in order whenever one hears “far right” tossed about. Most often, the term now applies to right-wing populists who are tired of being dictated to by their social “betters,” who are tired of saying that pride in their country and their heritage is evil, who are tired of, well, about everything that has been foist on them for well over a decade. Of course, we also have the reverse problem in which some on the right-wing in the United States can uncritically embrace any group that the Left condemns.

      It is funny how AfD gets all the American press, yet on Kickl in Austria we hear crickets.

    2. I think the mainstream parties are just running scared of the AfD and (in the UK) of Reform, which is now leading the polls.

      The electorates in Europe are beginning to realise that the mainstream parties have screwed up very badly in allowing in multiple millions of immigrants in such numbers in such a short space of time that they don’t even try to integrate.

      The evidence is now clear (from the UK, Demark, Netherlands, Sweden etc) that such immigration — far from being a financial boost to the country — is a net financial drain. That is, such immigrants cost the government more in benefit payments and similar than they pay in taxes. And that calculation is during their working life, not taking account of after they retire.

      And then there’s the fact that the crime rate in about 5 to 10 times higher from the immigrant population than the host population. And then there’s the loss of social cohesion and the detriment to civic trust and identity, which does actually matter a lot.

      And all the evidence is that this pattern (costing the government more than they pay in taxes, higher crime rates, social disaffection) continues to the second generation (at least)

      Of course saying any of this gets you instantly labelled “far right”, and since parties like the AfD and Reform are the only ones that are openly speaking about this, they get that labelling. It’s purely an attempt to scare the voters away from them.

      And they hate Elon Musk because he retweets statistics about all of this, and since he has 210 million followers on twitter it gets noticed. Even more upset with Musk are the traditional media, which steadfastly refuses to discuss any of this, instead just repeating the mantra “diversity is our strength”.

    3. OK, I’ve lived in Germany since 1983 and know what’s going on here. The AfD are to the right of U.S. Republicans but to the left of actual Nazis. Again, the problem here is the false dichotomy: just another right-wing party the left doesn’t like, or actual Nazis? The answer is neither, but rather somewhere in-between. Yes, many of their policies are shared by conservative parties elsewhere (and even the Social Democrats in Denmark). On the whole they are closest to a Libertarian party in many areas though with a patriotic/nationalistic twist which most Libertarian parties don’t have. The accusations of right-wing extremism are based on comments to the effect that the Holocaust was no big deal and, at least on the part of Björn Höcke, intentional use of (sometimes—whether you think that is a good idea or not—forbidden) Nazi vocabulary, gestures, etc. (The guy is a history teacher by profession so there is no possibility that it was just coincidence and being misinterpreted.)

      Elections are coming up in Germany. If one wants an anti-woke party with a harder stance on immigration but not right-wind extremist, one can vote for the CDU. So why is the AfD so strong? Too reasons. One, a general desire on the part of some to vote for a party not part of the establishment. Two, favouring Putin over the Ukraine.

      Interestingly, another even newer party in Germany, BSW, which split off from the Left Party (which formed out of a fusion of the former SED in East Germany and a labour-union led initiative in the west), is also strongly pro-Putin.

      One cannot interpret the political landscape of a country with proportional representation in terms of a two-party system.

  20. I personally have no problem with Musk ignoring Ocasio-Cortez and others on the Mad Left about this nonsense. I do, however, have a major problem with his not emphatically distancing himself from those on the Mad Right who have embraced what they think is his Hitlerite signaling. Did he do so and I missed it?

        1. Does he have a record of supporting those groups? I don’t think so.

          Saying “I don’t support this group” plays into the idea that it WAS a Nazi salute. I don’t believe it was.

    2. No.
      It would be easy to tell everybody exactly what was going through his mind. But he is being very careful to do just the opposite. If he wasn’t trolling then, he certainly is now.

  21. Context absolutely matters, so let’s examine it: Elon Musk is a man who (a) has consistently promoted far-right politics across multiple countries, (b) amplified and shared racist conspiracy theories on his platform, (c) openly supported a political candidate who attempted to overturn a democratic election—one who would likely be facing criminal convictions if not for his presidency, and (d) comes from a family history of explicit white supremacist sympathies, with his grandparents relocating to apartheid South Africa for their political beliefs. And now, (e) Musk has made what appears to be a Nazi salute—not once, but twice—at a political rally celebrating the victory of his ideological allies.

    Given this overwhelming context, the interpretation that this was an intentional display is far from baseless. If anything, it is consistent with Musk’s track record of aligning himself with authoritarianism, white supremacy, and anti-democratic forces.

    I think the burden is on those defending this gesture to provide credible evidence that it was anything else, because the prima facie interpretation is damning—and the context only reinforces it.

    Also, Elon could have given an explanation and apologized for any offense and clarified that it was accidental.

    1. You are stringing together a bunch of right wing stuff to imply that Musk was giving a Nazi salute. “Overwhelming context” my tuchas, you simply want to demonize Musk by calling him a Nazi, and you have produced no evidence that he was a Nazi, just a conservative. Nope, the burden is on you, but I suggest you go over to Pharyngula, where this kind of stuff passes for dispositive evidence.

  22. My favourite use of that “Downfall” clip is “Scientific Peer Review, ca. 1945”, aka The Third Reviewer.

      1. +++ Many thanks, Mike, this clip is priceless.

        The humor is, of course, almost as off-limits as it would be if it referred to a <i>really</i> sanctified subject like, uhhh, pronouns.

  24. That it was an ill-advised but essentially just awkward gesture seems entirely in keeping with his overall performance on stage. However Musk does troll a lot and I can see why that might lead some to jump to that conclusion in this case.

    In regards to trolling, I wish people would stop doing it as I believe it to be counterproductive. People who are easily triggered by trolling are insecure emotionally and/or intellectually and/or physically. They should not be coddled but neither should they be teased. Neither coddling nor teasing will make them more secure or more rational – the contrary more likely. If we want people that we believe are being irrational to be more rational, we need to approach them objectively with rational argument that does not pull punches but also does not attack or tease.

    Another problem with trolling is that it muddies the water. When a person does it often it can sometimes be hard to separate their trolls from their true positions. People in positions of power, especially, should be clarifying the waters not muddying them. Unfortunately politicians often use muddying of the waters as a strategy to reach an end. It’s short term thinking that does more harm than good.

  25. Personally, I think he meant it. He stands with AfD, he made Nazi puns in response to the supposed gesture, he took a photo op at Auschwitz some time ago. I think it’s a typical wink wink nudge nudge, like what 45 2.0 does all the time. I agree on one thing: I wouldn’t make a big deal about it, if I were AOC, etc. We already know what Musk is.

    2. The Nazi puns are his sarcastic response (proper, I think) to people who said he made a Hitler salute. And I guess since AOC called it a Hitler salute, you agree with her.

      What amazes me about this thread is the number of people who are pretty damn sure they know what Musk meant. And what he meant was BAD BAD BAD. I think that this is an attitude which hurt the Democrats in the election, and I am calling it out.

      1. Go Dr. C. Musk loathing is tribal, irrational, and a projection onto a stranger of lots of maladies his detractors and the detractors of centrist or right of center people loathe and want to erase. Classic scapegoating.

  26. Here is my take: Elon Musk could have stepped up to the microphone, given a full Nazi salute with a loud ‘Sieg, Heil!” and NOTHING WOULD COME OF IT. Oh sure some people would be outraged, and some moderate Republicans would “tsk, tsk” the episode, but with everything Trump in the long run, it would not have mattered. Trump said it: he could shoot a person and not lose a vote.

    When Trump was recorded talking about how he liked to sexually assault women, when he directed US soldiers to go out of their way to use his hotel , when he tried to leverage US support of Ukraine for political favors, everyone was sure that he was done for. As the late great James Randi might say – he is a rubber duck and will always pop to the surface. In that regard, he is unsinkable.

    How those of us who stand for rationality and critical thinking can stop Trump and his truly odious supporters I am not exactly sure, but reacting with outrage at his and his minions fucking childish antics does not seem to be a viable path forward. That does not change minds.

  27. This is exactly the kind of noise they want us engaged with. They don’t want our eyes on the ball. How silly and stupid for such otherwise intelligent people to waste so much energy on nonsense like this.

  28. I assumed this was going to be people taking something out of context or exaggerating, but having watched the video, I have to say, he did do a Nazi salute.

    Its kind and generous of you to assume his intentions were benign and to come up this a scenario where he is an awkward person and site his dance (which does not strike me as awkward) as evidence, but you don’t actually know what he was planning or thinking as he did the Nazi salute, so why make excuses for him?

    You alluded to Musk defending himself or denying, but he did not – he mocked or dismissed the people criticizing him; he did not deny it. So this comes across again as you being generous in defending Musk.

    It is noble (or just regular old “honest,” if noble is too much) that you defend people you don’t completely agree with, but it seems like you are mounting a defense with “facts not in evidence” as they say in legal jargon. I’m not saying I know he meant something awful (or “bad bad bad” as you wrote), I’m just saying I saw him do a Nazi salute.

    1. Having watched the video, I have to say that he did NOT do a nazi salute. Nor do YOU know what he was planning or thinkiong.

      And yes, he did deny it: here’s a quote from the BBC “In response, the SpaceX and Tesla chief posted on X: ‘Frankly, they need better dirty tricks. The ‘everyone is Hitler’ attack is sooo tired.”

      That sounds like a denial to me, and he mocked people who said he was Hitler.

      Frankly, this is turning into a “Yes he did” and “No he didn’t” debate and I’m getting sick of it. Thanks at least for giving me credit for being charitable in denying that it’s a Hitler salute. I really don’t think he meant it, but raspberries to those who came after me and were uncivil because of my take. You at least, though I disagree with you, are civil!

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