The NYT published a list of the 30 Greatest Living Songwriters that you can find here (archived here), and while many of the choices are no-brainers (Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, Brian and Eddie Holland of Motown’s Holland/Dozier/Holland, Carole King, Smokey Robinson), but I immediately saw people whose songs I knew a bit about and don’t belong. Those include Taylor Swift (she doesn’t write most of her songs alone, but with a group, and I don’t think they’re “great” songs anyway), Bad Bunny, and Fiona Apple. And where the hell is Joni Mitchell, for crying out loud? What about Donald Fagan, or Laura Nyro, Marvin Gaye and of course, Paul McCartney, who is still alive, James Taylor, and Robbie Robertson? If you think that Bad Bunny is better than these, you have either a tin ear or a screw loose.
But don’t listen to me; listen to Rick Beato, who pondered the list and came to a similar conclusion: there are great songwriters on the list, but others whose presence is bizarre. Beato notes that the list is for American songwriters, so you can immediately exclude Paul McCartney and Joni Mitchell as candidates. But music is a worldwide endeavor, and if you’re using only Anglophones, do you have to exclude people from the UK and Canada? Neil Young was born in Canada, but he’s now an American citizen, and dammit, he should be on that list!
Beato’s choice of notable omissions include Stevie Nicks/Lindsey Buckingham, Billie Corgan, Steven Tyler, Ann and Nancy Wilson. I disagree with some of these. For those with solo careers who were omitted, Beato mentions Jimmy Webb, Donald Fagan, James Taylor, and Billy Joel, all of whom belong.
Now Beato seems to use “number of plays” as an important criterion for greatness, which is a reflection of popularity rather than quality. And the NYT uses “mass appeal” as well, and I take issue with that. If you used the same criteria for literature, you’d have a bunch of dire but popular novelists like Ayn Rand and Barbara Cartland listed as “the greats”.
Now have a look at the NYT’s list and listen to Beato, and weigh in if you want. Beato asks people to put in his YouTube comments the singers would shouldn’t be on the list. Go tell him!
I would put (to give one example) Steve Harris way ahead of anyone on the NYT list (with the possible exception of Bob Dylan).
If I may mention this woman who isn’t well known, I like Tristen a lot. The opening line to this song is funny: “Haven’t you seen enough of me dragging you round in the dirt?”
I’ve listened to this song countless times. I was told by someone that the opening is vaguely reminiscent of Fleetwood Mac. I guess that’s fair. And I agree with many of the comments (“Queen of amazing melodies” for sure):
“Glass Jar” is another song by her that I like. You can look for that one.
If James Taylor is not in the top 30, there is something wrong with your list.
It seems to have been written with an eye toward current popularity, and that isn’t a mark of greatness.
As I commented on the YT post, the main problem with the list is that it includes too many current songwriters. There is no way to know if they will stand the test of time. And Bad Bunny? Really?? He objectively sucks.
But maybe we are being played. By being deliberately flawed, the NYT gets clicks and rage-sharing.
Art is in the eye of the beholder.
Many of these published lists hope for controversy, disagreement, and debate, as that’s what attracts eyeballs.
I agree that popularity and “number of plays” are not a legitimate gauge of quality, unless the list is “Best Popular Songwriters.”
Tom Waits, Nicks/Buckingham, Joni Mitchell, and Jason Isbell need to be on there.
Robbie Robertson is doubly disqualified because 1/ he’s no longer living, and 2/ he was a Canadian. Neil Sedaka just missed out because of reason 1/ as well. (I can’t imagine the NYT including him on their list if he was still with us!). Stephen Stills definitely deserves a mention. I’ll go out on a limb here and nominate Paul Williams (his soundtrack for Brian de Palma’s Phantom of the Paradise from 1974 – in which he also acted – is a very clever but sadly overlooked piece of work). The most glaring omission of them all though must surely be Neil Diamond.
When I saw the NY Times article, I assumed by “living” they meant contemporary, so it didn’t bother me that all those people Beato mentioned weren’t there. I didn’t finish reading it because I know nothing about contemporary popular music.
(sigh)
hehehe
Now why would I be interested in –anything– the NY Times writes or opines?
I’d rather listen to my puppy vomit up the stuffing of his plushie.
D.A.
NYC 🗽
Some egregious omissions, as per our host, but Marvin Gaye has been disqualified from the list since 1984.
I wouldn’t wast time discussing a list of US songwriters that doesn’t include Billy Joel.
So. No Joni Mitchell, no Randy Newman, no Van Morrison, no CCR, etc.
Instead, we get Missy Elliott:
“See my hips and my tips, don’t ya?
See my ass and my lips, don’t ya?
Lost a few pounds in my waist for ya
This the kinda beat that go ra-ta-ta
Ra-ta-ta-ta, ta-ta-ta-ta-ta
Sex me so good I say, blah-blah-blah
Work it! I need a glass of water
Boy, oh boy, it’s good to know ya”
Genius!
This from Joni:
Help me, I think I’m fallin’ in love again
When I get that crazy feelin’, I know I’m in trouble again
I’m in trouble ’cause you’re a rambler and a gambler
And a sweet talkin’ ladies man
And you love your lovin’ (lovin’)
Not like you love your freedom
Help me, I think I’m fallin’ in love too fast
It’s got me hopin’ for the future and worryin’ about the past
‘Cause I’ve seen some hot, hot blazes come down to smoke and ash
We love our lovin’ (lovin’)
But not like we love our freedom
And…she actually sang it beautifully, and didn’t just chant it like any non-musician could.
I’d really like to ask the NYT how they could possibly see the filth that passes as music from Missy Elliott as superior to the Joni lyrics.
Also, Van Morrison is from Northern Ireland, so I guess as this is list is just limited to American songwriters he couldn’t be on it.
Dissing Ayn Rand? Fight me!
Seriously, she was a deeply reasoned critic of socialism. Did she throw in some hot sex scenes occasionally? I have no problem with that.
She doesn’t belong on that list, but I was sorry to see this obituary this morning:
https://archive.is/20260503191447/https://www.thetimes.com/uk/obituaries/article/beverley-martyn-death-obituary-singer-wife-john-martyn-b3pjt9gzc
Pop music to me is like the NBA. Something I really cared about up until around 2003 or 2004.
In this year’s NBA playoffs, a team (the Atlanta Hawks) was beaten by over 50 points. Now, the playoffs are supposed to represent the elite teams. When I heard about the score, I wondered if perhaps if a massive flu bug had swept through the Hawks team, forcing them to only field 3 players.
While this is just one data point, it is the culmination of a trend…the NBA decided about two decades ago that “entertainment” was more important than competitiveness. And by entertainment, they apparently meant that fans want to see every team to play the same way and ignore defense entirely. And while die-hard fans grouse, the NBA doesn’t care because it is able to monetize its garbage product with gigantic media deals and international appeal.
The only sports league I watch now is the EPL. The fact that Spurs could turn into Spuds is something that could never happen in the US sports leagues, where the worst teams are not relegated, but rather rewarded with a high draft pick (an extremely socialist way of doing things).
Music has followed a similar vein. Pop music has become simpler, homogenous, and repetitive, catering to the lowest common denominator and devoid of any creativity. 1972 music sounded a lot different than 1962, as did 1982 from 1972, and you could continue this up until about 2002. Whereas now, not much has changed in pop music in the last 15-20 years.
The “living” and “American” qualifiers are doing a lot of work for those wanting to be sure to include a diverse group of contemporary pop stars.
Not including David Byrne on the list is inexcusable.