Despite the calls of both Presidential candidates to “unite America”, the calls of many to “reach across the aisle” and confect bipartisan legislation, and the advice of some that it’s time to discuss America’s differences instead of hating one’s opponents, we are now hearing calls from Democrats and liberals to boot those who voted for Trump out of our lives.
I disagree. I know some of those people, and although I don’t like the way they voted, I don’t think that’s sufficient to avoid them forever, or to give them sharp lectures that they are fascists and tried to ruin America and our livelihood. There are, as I’ve pointed out in the nooz over the last few days, a diversity of reasons why people voted for Trump: wokeism of the Left, their own economic problems due to inflation, immigration, and so on—reasons that can be debated but not dismissed.
Sadly, we have some on the Left becoming haters like this. One such person is discussed in a column on by Jonathan Turley written on his website. Turley is a professor at George Washington University Law School, an attorney, a legal scholar. and, I believe, a libertarian. As noted below, Turley wrote a recent column in The Hill about the “liberal rage” that is spreading now that Democrats have started to internalize the election debacle. In that piece Turley made a reasonable point:
It is important to note at the outset that there is no reason Democratic activists should abandon their values just because they lost this election. Our system is strengthened by passionate and active advocacy.
Rather, it is the collective fury and delirium of the post-election protests that was so disconcerting. Pundits lashed out at the majority of voters, insisting that the election established that half of the nation is composed of racists, misogynists or domination addicts who long to submit to tyranny.
No, not everyone who voted for Trump is a fascist racist, or misogynist. (For crying out loud, a huge number of women voted against Harris.( In fact, more than half of all Americans voted for the Orange Man, since Harris apparently lost the popular vote. I am embarrassed before the world that we chose Trump to hold the most important job in the country, but there it is.
Ergo the rage. In his new column, Turley note a particularly striking and offensive (to me) example of that rage: a resident in psychiatry at Yale. Turley’s words:
With women pledging to break up with their boyfriends and divorce their husbands over the Trump victory, Yale University chief psychiatry resident Dr. Amanda Calhoun is advising that it may also be necessary for your mental health to cut off your family and friends who supported Trump. In that way, you can avoid being “triggered” by opposing political views — much like Yale itself.
As academics, we are dealing with the election on campuses across America. After the election, I had some valuable discussions with students who supported Harris and some who supported Trump. I wish there would be more interaction between the two groups. That is why this story stood out for me. I do not believe that further separation or isolation will help this country or these individuals.
Dr. Calhoun went on MSNBC’s Joy Reid to offer the curious take on good mental health. Reid has spent the week condemning the majority of voters (particularly minority voters) in the nation as racists and misogynists for the Trump victory.
Reid joined a rising tide of rage, which I discussed in my column this weekend. Dr. Calhoun added her voice to the madness.
“So, if you are going into a situation where you have family members, where you have close friends who you know have voted in ways that are against you… it’s completely fine to not be around those people and to tell them why…
…You know, to say, ‘I have a problem with the way that you voted because it went against my very livelihood, and I’m not going to be around you this holiday. I need to take some space for me.’ I think you should very much be entitled to do so, and I think it may be essential for your mental health.”
There is another possibility. You can try to resolve those feelings with people who you previously liked or loved. It may actually help to discuss these issues outside of the echo chamber of your political associations.
If you want to hear Calhoun, who is African-American, actually say what she said above, click on the screenshot below, which will take you to the Fox News column showing a video of Calhoun speaking to Joy Reid on MSNBC. Yes, the words she said are indeed the ones above:
Turley adds this and touts his book, which I haven’t read:
Across the country, women have been cutting their hair and joining the Korean 4B movement—bihon (no marriage), bichulsan (no childbirth), biyeonae (no dating), and bisekseu (no sex). One is quoted as saying, “I fear The Handmaid’s Tale will become our reality.”
It is a curious response since figures like Reid blame white women for the loss. Trump won white women voters by eight points at 53 percent. Harris actually fell slightly in the support of women overall. Conversely, roughly 43 percent of men voted for Harris. Yet I watched one deranged voter say that she is thinking of buying a “Glock” and shooting the first man who comes near her. If so, she would have an over 4 out of 10 likelihood of shooting a fellow Harris supporter.
None of this is good for our nation’s mental health and suggesting that people retreat further into their silos does not make for particularly healthy advice.
As discussed in my book, The Indispensable Right, we have become a nation of rage addicts. Taking another hit of rage will do little to break that addiction.
Now I didn’t vote for Trump, of course, but I am not prepared to either lecture people who did, telling them that they were attacking my livelihood, or telling them that I don’t want to associate with them. I suppose it’s okay to say that “I want to take some time for myself right now,” without giving the reason, and then trying to have a discussion later.
Of course people can sever any relationship they want over the election, but that sort of attitude doesn’t seem to me conducive to mental health—even though Calhoun is a shrink—and it’s certainly not good for the Democrats. After all, a common element in post-election analyses is the idea that the elitism of Democrats, combined with their characterizing their enemies as yokels or fascists, are factors that turned off centrists and leftish Republicans.
There will be some lively discussion around the Thanksgiving and Christmas groaning boards, but Calhoun’s table will be emptier than usual.
h/t: Bill
Steve, Jonah, and Sara over at The Dispatch have a good discussion of what went wrong for the Democrats.
Hadley Freeman’s article in the Sunday Times, which I think is open access, is very good on this topic. I agree with it completely. Killer sentence for me is: “Truly, the bells have tolled for the left’s belief that minorities are civil rights symbols, as opposed to individuals with bills and biases, like everyone.”
If I’m allowed to link, it’s here:
https://www.thetimes.com/article/cb5754d5-285e-4061-87ee-3745b841c0a9?shareToken=2bae22f8841bd7087e54e3bb944a4767
Hadley is always great.
Archive copy for when the share token expires: https://archive.is/lQt0y
Thanks. Good read.
“Similarly, yes, it’s a bitter irony that a man found liable for sexual assault last year was more popular with voters than a woman.”
And in that woman’s home state he could serve time in a woman’s prison if he said the magic words.
Here’s something I don’t understand: We’re hearing that the main reason Trump won is because of the economy – how “terrible” it is (in the face of contradictory evidence) thanks to the Democrats, and how great it will be with Trump. Why can’t Americans see that:
a) The cost of living and inflation is a worldwide thing for disparate reasons (Covid broke everything), not just in the USA (where you apparently have this problem the least).
…and b) Do you really think that the economy and inflation are 100% at the whim & control of a president – as though they have a dial that they can just turn to adjust it? Good grief, I mean, even if it were true that Trump could and would improve the economy, I for one could not bring myself to vote for such an obnoxious, narcissistic, repugnant blowhard. He does not have one redeeming quality. You will not find a less religious person than me, but there is one verse in the bible that rings true: “The love of money is the root of all evil.”
Trump did not gain many votes. The reason balance moved to the right was that potential Democratic Party voters just stayed home. With two awful candidates, representing the two equally disconnected from reality parties, the Democratic voter’s answer was apparently to NOT VOTE, and that’s overall what happened.
I trust that most Dems don’t feel the need to ostracize neighbors, friends, or family members who voted for Trump. It is, though, a major indictment of those that feel that way that they are unwilling to accept pluralist democracy when it doesn’t work out their way. That some of the most visible of these are in the media doesn’t help.
If you make the argument that Wokeism is like a religion for some people then it is perhaps not so surprising that Trump voters are regarded as apostates by them.
Any enthusiasm to ‘punish’ the apostates strikes me as very anti-Enlightenment thinking.
The are to be pitied; helped, if possible. Those that proclaim to be religious don’t understand the precepts of their faiths. Those who proclaim to be conservatives and/or Republicans are the TRUE RINOs.
My hope is they are not overly hurt by 47’s policies, and don’t blame what will surely occur on everyone BUT 47.
It’s funny, in a scary and dangerous way: magas disparage our education system, and yet they are the ones who reject science, logic, understanding, research, emotional knowledge, reasoning, creativity, in-depth problem-solving, and especially critical thinking.
Most of my Republican friends and family voted for 45 in 2016.
About half did in 2020.
About only 20% said they would this year, especially after J6.
I have zero reason to think they lied to me. Perhaps they voted “third party.” Some did, I’m sure. I don’t ask.
But it does give me hope that minds can be change toward the truth
These pundits are deranged. Many people who filled in the bubble near the word “Trump” think he’s an uncouth buffoon who will do and say objectionable things soon–these people voted against Harris. They voted against a movement of which she is the poster child:
–Men can be women if they say so. Kids should be able to take cross-sex hormones. Taxpayers may end up paying for sex change operations. Obviously, “men” can compete and dominate in women’s sport.
–We want more of your tax dollars. We already take a lot of your money, but we want more. And it’s not to be mentioned that 40 percent of Americans pay no income tax.
–Israel needs to be checked, vilified if at all possible. Shame on them for defending themselves. If a bully walks up to you and attacks you, landing a good punch, you may punch back with equal or less force and then wait to see if it will happen again. Also, call the UN for help. They’re great.
–We opened the border, really just because Trump tried to close it. That’s it. We really had no other reason than #resistance.
–Multiple lawsuits and impeachments, even when we couldn’t find a smoking gun, were a great idea. We just figured at some point, discovery would yield an impeachable offense.
–Yes, we’ve know for more than four years that Biden has serious cognitive deficits and should not have been in charge for at least the past 1-2 years. We hid him in the basement for the 2020 campaign, largely to prevent the American people from seeing this problem. We did such a great job. Biden was a useful puppet for us to govern unseen.
–Now that Biden screwed things up, we privately did a backroom deal to put forward a woefully unready and not-particularly-bright candidate due to her skin color and gender assigned at birth.
Maybe this is too strongly worded, but there are many more reasons voters rejected Harris–for I think that’s a large part of what this election really means. Yes, there are people who waste their times at Trump rallies, but Bret Stephens’ “A Party of Prigs and Pontificators” is spot on.
Well said and not too strongly worded. I don’t know anyone who wears MAGA gear or went to a Trump rally. I know more than a few who held their nose and voted for Trump because of some of the reasons you stated.
+1
+2.
I don’t know why you think there was no smoking gun. Tr*mp was absolutely bang to rights on the first impeachment. He got off because the “jury” had a majority of his own party in it.
Impeachment made sense only in the early non-partisan era of the Republic when the Constitution was being written, before political parties developed. Once parties arose it was like the photosynthetic oxygen revolution on the primordial Earth: no going back. It became irreversibly the same as a confidence vote in Parliament. The Democratic House could safely (and theatrically) impeach (twice) with the full certain knowledge that the Republican Senate would never convict and destabilize the government. The facts were never an issue, only the numbers, just as in a confidence vote. I don’t believe we will ever see a President impeached when the Opposition controls both Houses as the risk is too great — if the whips do their sums wrong — that the Presidency will be occupied by a turd selected by the President to make himself impeachment-proof.
Well said
Add to your list the constant hectoring from smug and self-righteous Language Police, who really do hold everyone else in contempt.
These responses are a literal regurgitation of what happened in 2016. This difference is that this time Harris lost the popular vote. For me, that made a huge emotional difference. I can’t feel that Trump cheated or exploited a flaw in the system. He just, sadly, won. Dems now need to rethink their message. Doubling down on identatarianism is a losing strategy. Accepting that “demographics is destiny” is a myth will be a good start to winning nationally and in purple areas.
What!!?? I dont care if some trumpers are triggered, people have a right to condemn whomever they want. The real question: why is it that after a republican loss they get more and more united while the left fractures into a million peices, blaming eachother for being too extreme or for not moving further right. Stop blaming your own side and stop defending climate denying misogynists. There are good people on both sides, its just the proportions that concern me.
I think you are mistaken. It’s not Trump supporters who will be triggered. That doesn’t happen. “Triggered” is a left-coded word, and yes, there’s lots of that going on. Besides, Trump supporters and cautious foreign sympathizers won. We have no reason to be triggered even if it was possible for conservatives to be triggered in the first place. If I was attending American Thanksgiving I’d be gloating, toasting with champagne flutes full of the sweet angry tears of my progressive DEI- and trans- advocating relatives. (Not really. Not my style. I mostly just smile indulgently like a kindly uncle. And my relatives are all rednecks anyway.)
(President Trump’s foreign policy is going to be rough on Canada but that’s our problem, not yours.)
The reason for not ostracizing Trump supporters is not that they might be upset, it’s that, if Democrats ostracize them, retreat into their bubble, and regard anyone who doesn’t support them as a “misogynist” and “racist” hateful person, then they’ll lose again next time and four more years of Trump will be followed by eight of Vance.
All elections are won by who best appeals to the center ground, and many Democrats seem oblivious to how much they’ve done to alienate the middle ground and how unattractive they now seem to the middle ground.
Yes. Full agreement.
And many on the left, including friends of mine, are still blaming the “stupid” Trump voters. Calling voters stupid is a guaranteed losing strategy.
Or they’re blaming “racism” or “sexism”.
If this is the best the Dems and the Left can do, we are condemned to perpetual GOP rule.
+2
I am not going to ostracize trump voters as some of them are my relatives. Instead of hating on half the country, Democrats need to take a long hard look at their own failures. And I don’t mean “where did the Harris campaign go wrong.” The working class has abandoned the Democrats. Start there.
I agree. Dems should take a good hard look at their own failures but they are not about to do that if they’re busy ostracizing Trump supporters instead. Looks like Republicans won’t have anything to worry about in the foreseeable future.
“Should we ostracize those who voted for Trump?” Obviously not. Doing so might be the reaction among those who became so invested in their own politics that they saw only enemies among Trump voters, but that kind of rage only makes things worse. So much for “Joy” (Kamala’s “Joy,” not Joy Reid). My hope is that the rest of the country will behave more rationally—as neighbors and friends.
“No, not everyone who voted for Trump is a fascist racist, or misogynist.”
Well, my hope knowing Kamala wasnt a great option herself was “Surely folks can hold their nose here. Trumps own words surely showed them hes going to be worse this time, right? It would be the mature thing to do.”
No, but when interviewed, the majority approved of the hate and division Trump spread (at least that I have seen), even going after their own citizens in ways that would have been previously illegal, or were deeply ignorant about the truth of the issues they voted for him one.
I couldnt say how representative it is, but I have seen several interviews with proud Trump voters who are happy that hes going after China, and the world with tariffs, and finally China is going to have to foot the bill once again.
Such people just dont know, and watching them struggle how to understand how it actually works was painful.
This next 4 years may be a very dangerous time for you all. SCOTUS will greenlight anything he does, and if he gets the house too, nothing stops him if he decides to do anything he wants. He has complete immunity around his use of core powers now, which include how he heads the DOJ and FBI, and a civil service thats going to be packed with utter loyalists.
As for rage, F off with that malarkey all. Trump voters tried to tear down the Congress when they lost lol. Various MAGA folks have engaged in plots to kidnap and murder governors they didnt like and literally engaged in election interference after they lost. Wake me when libs start doing the same instead of just rants.
The public is well informed of all the awful that is Trump, and the majority said they wanted a rapist, mass fraudster convict who stole state secrets, and tried to overturn the US govt last time.
And they chose that. And now they are all like “be kind and civil now Dems”.
Ostracize? No. Mock, especially when a number of my friends did realize a little too late he conned them on the economy and more?
Yes. Have to have something after all, as they are in complete delusion about him for everything else.
Sire the Dems had major issues. And the American public chose a guy who was disastrous last time, and promises again to be so this time, to fix it all again. America deserves whats probably coming on Day 1 past.
There are words to describe that lol.
Oh, and those who stayed home instead of voting at all, you also contributed to this.
If there is a next time, hold your nose and choose the lesser evil.
And keep in mind too about the “oh them dumb dems said hes just a bad guy tyrant boo hoo dems” talk I keep seeing: Half of the people he appointed who served under him said exactly that about him, republicans too. They clearly and loudly warned Americans not to do this. His own folks.
All the Jan 6 info you have came from all republicans. This talk about Trump being a dictator in waiting was and up to the last days was all informed by people who served under him ffs 😛
+1
Hear hear! There are large numbers of males now harrassing girls and women gleefully with rape threats. How dare they pretend it’s unreasonable for anti-Trumpers to be enraged! And women are frequently misogynists. 9/10 humans have a bias against women. This is why “divide and rule” has been so effective. If women stuck up for other women we’d have had genuine equality long ago. I’m not from the US. I fear for Ukraine and Europe. America will never be forgiven for abandoning its allies and working for Putin. Women in the US are now dying from miscarriages as medical staff in some states refuse to intervene when doomed fetuses are not naturally expelled by the body. A shocking atrocity and violation of human rights. Yeah, I’m enraged. No common ground with those who choose to live in an alternate reality of disinformation and blind faith in “strongmen” and billionaires.
If you aren’t from the United States you might not be aware that the U.S. President has no authority to change abortion law, and (most likely) neither does the federal Congress. Abortion is a matter for the states to legislate and regulate under their criminal law. That’s the reason it wasn’t talked about much in the campaign.
As for women not standing up for one another, you can’t blame us misogynistic men for that. Look to yourselves then, and re-direct your rage. The reality is, though, that women have different interests and aren’t homogeneous, same as men. Not all women support abortion on demand at any time. Women undermine one other as they compete (early in their lives) for the few men who are hot and then (later, as they realize they aren’t so hot themselves) for the few men who will be good providers and are willing to risk ruin from divorce. They do the same at work and in politics but, unlike with traditional marriage, the undermining carries on without end. Married women don’t have much to fear from one another except as agents of infidelity. Women at work are perpetually a threat. Divide and rule indeed. Perhaps this is what you mean in calling 9/10 women misogynists.
Fortunately, there were constitutional amendments on abortion on the ballot in a number of states in this very election. https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2024-11-10/abortion-rights-election-2024-donald-trump-supreme-court-ballot-measures
I have no idea what you are talking about regarding harassment and rape threats (in what county, the US?). I do know who refused to acknowledge that freshly arrived young men from Arab countries, Afghanistan or parts of Africa could be and in fact, as it turned out, were a rape and harassment risk for women in my country in 2015-17. It was the legacy media and the left/liberal politicians that I had voted for.
+1
I’ve seen several tweets on X from people saying that Trump-voting family members are being uninvited from Thanksgiving celebrations. It sounds insane to me.
I really think at its very core that therapist/ psychologist advice s why we lost this election, because many on the left are in echo chambers and safe rooms and calling everything even hearing a different opinion a trauma and failing to see that many voted Trump because of reasons other than being a bigot a misogynist, a raciest, transphobic or sexist.
I have many ideas about this especially young male voters that we lost as I am a mother to one and have seen how young boys have been treated by woke and DEI . My son voted Kamala but many of his friends have had enough of walking on egg shells and being blamed for everything and being called a rapist by looking in a girl’s direction. My son who did debate from 9th grade to 12 and now coaches it while he is a freshman. Learnt to argue both sides and hear both sides. And from judging debate tournaments I believe the only way forward is through civil discourse and healthy debate and learning to listen to the other side. But first we must stop belittling, and blaming little boys in elementary that they are cause of all societies problems. Because the boys I know ( sorry young men ) mom here. Are not misogynistic, trans phobic, racist fascists , they are just tired of been called rapists.
+3!
I agree with this.
Dialectical Political Warfare – free societies need to understand this. Perhaps go to the writing of Mao Zedong, who made it into an art form.
The proverbial “pendulum” has certainly swung. In which way precisely is the important question. A super-simple 2D model :
Authoritarian-Left | Authoritarian-Right
—————————+———————-
Libertarian-Left | Libertarian-Right
The ritual Hatecraft of Leftism (originating in Hegel, Rousseau, et. al.) has long ago already been setting the conditions of the reaction pathway towards Authoritarian-Right – the desired conditions for “productive” conflict – that is, towards the goals of Leftism, which I think most readers understand is not “the left”. This is a dialectical manipulation. It provokes a “Woke Right” faction (perhaps – see eXtwitter) into conflict – which is bad.
The best conditions would be, IMHO, a libertarian-left/right mix, maybe on the line – a “pragmatic liberty”, vs. “ressentiment/envious liberty”. The pendulum is following a different, more complex direction IMHO, but of course I’m a regular reader/listener of James Lindsay / Yuri Bezmenov’s Ghost.
See perhaps:
How the Pendulum Really Swings
James Lindsay | New Discourses
[ YouTube ] eGANSud0D7Q?si=9KbNLljwpYzhxgek
^^^have to type it in by hand b/c WordPress says “url bad”.
Prof Coyne states “In fact, more than half of all Americans voted for the Orange Man….”
May I offer a small correction? The U.S. population is about 336 million. Trump received about 75 million votes (the counting is not complete), or about 22% of all Americans….
Even the adult population is estimated to be about 258 million, so Trump had fewer votes than half of that, about 29% of adults.
Sorry, I meant more that half of the popular vote went to Trump. I thought people would understand what I meant, but I guess not.
People probably do/did understand what you meant, but as an attorney I always believe that repeating a statement in a slightly different form adds clarity for those who might have misinterpreted your intention, if not your literal meaning.
“Accuse the Jesuits of killing three men and a dog, and they will triumphantly produce the dog alive!” (cited in the National Review, 2005.)
(Note the happy ending: no animals were harmed.)
I think the distinction is an interesting one because we have to ask why so many people didn’t vote at all and was there a systemic reason that might have skewed the result one way or the other.
I find it even more interesting that election participation in the US is much lower than in most other Western democracies. Pretty clearly, there is a lot of apathy or disillusion about the whole democracy project. (This is not just a recent phenomenon.)
I thought that too, but turnout in Canada and the UK has been drifting down to about 62% in both countries. The forecast for the US — not all votes have been counted yet — is 65% which is on the high side for recent history, higher than Obama’s 2008 election, for example. Not clear if it will exceed 2020 where mail ballots made their entry.
All three countries do better than Western Europe which has been seeing 42% in recent years. I’ll leave the rest of the world as an exercise for the student.
This is impressive for America because many officials and local initiatives are voted on. In Canada and the UK you mark one X for your MP in 5 seconds and that is the limit of your participation in national democracy. Everything else is done by elites.
(Figures from Elections Canada, Wiki, and Statista.)
I think this is the expected results with such uninspiring candidates.
We’re to busy amusing ourselves with technology and better AI versions of ourselves. Device is called “friend. Not imaginary,” due to launch next year, orders taken now.
“friend” is an AI pendant who listens to you all the time* and chimes in with suggestions. “How it works”
“• Talk / Speak your mind or gossip about what your friend overheard.” • “Pause / Your friend will think for a moment and come up with something good.” • Read / Check your phone to see what your friend said.”
BTW… it also has free will. “What does ‘always listening’ mean?*
When connected via bluetooth, your friend is always listening and forming their own internal thoughts. We have given your friend free will for when they decide to reach out to you.”
IMO, Friend™ is definitely not your friend. But calling it Telescreen™ or Snitch™ would be bad marketing.
And as for “free will” (™ ?), I spit in Friend™’s general direction.
The problem with this kind of nitpicking is that there’s a subtext of trying to delegitimize Trump’s mandate. The truth is, he won both the presidency and the popular vote. You can tell yourself that most adults didn’t vote for him, but only by adding the number who didn’t vote at all to the number who voted for Harris. In no sense is that calculation part of the electoral system and it never has been.
FWIW I also find it annoying when people say things like “He’s not my president – I didn’t vote for him”. It’s pointless virtue signalling that misses the whole point of an election.
“The problem with this kind of nitpicking is that there’s a subtext of trying to delegitimize Trump’s mandate.”
Thanks for clarifying my hidden intention, which I have to admit I was not aware of. I thought I was just more simple-minded and literal.
Dr. Amanda Calhoun is a race-baiting black grifter, which is fine. But advising people, while speaking as a physician, to break up stable relationships over political differences is professional misconduct. It is called alienation of affection — women and children could be seriously disadvantaged if they took the advice — and a serious breach of boundaries for her to advocate this even to a patient. To recommend it to the general population is as bad as recommending, with the voice of medical authority, that people take ivermectin for Covid and refuse vaccination.
Of course, the people to be ostracized by these shrill liberal harpies might be glad of the excuse to give Thanksgiving dinners, and women, a miss.
I was thinking that too. Advising people to ostracize relatives and friends over an election seems unprofessional.
“alienation of affection”
Thanks for this excellent insight.
Yes that’s what cults do. Scientology and Jehovah witnesses spring to mind. Shunning them is abhorrent.
It is an unfathomable and unjustifiable response for an immature person to suggest this.
Keep in mind that the network chose her specifically for her message. It wasn’t like they called up some rando therapist and asked for an opinion. They purposefully brought her on so that the host could agree and reinforce the message.
I have also seen articles on how therapists have moved strongly to the progressive left. I’ve seen this with individuals in my own family’s dealings in which the therapist has reinforced feelings of racism, sexism, and overall helplessness and victimhood rather than promoting ways to remove paranoia and to build strength and agency. There seems to be strong philosophical capture in the social sciences in which the so-called experts and scholars are actively trying to push social change rather than objectively studying it or helping individuals deal with their own personal concerns. I don’t see this in engineering or with other physical sciences (except in reporting by SciAm and sometimes Nature), but it seems to be prevalent in the social science realm.
I can’t imagine not inviting someone to Thanksgiving dinner, or any other social gathering, based on their political views, unless of course that’s all they ever talked about. We get together as a family to escape from the influence of those idiots in Washington, and to focus on the people in our lives who truly matter on a day-to-day basis.
Just about everything one needs to know about Calhoun is prominently on display on her home page. But for more detail, one can click on her Publications and Presentations tabs.
The main reason I visit this site is for the no-free-will content.
So if we are angry with friends and family for voting in a particular direction, in the moment it cannot be otherwise. If we want to change how people might vote, then we need a strategy. Pity and ostracizing are unlikely to work. Also, one strategy is unlikely to persuade all people.
Overall, I suspect that making people part of your in-group will be a better strategy than forcing them out.
+1, but “If we want to change how people might vote” part :
This is the core of it I think. This is where it gets gnostic – that is, a sublated consciousness, a gnosis, of the way to eliminate contradiction.
I’ll express my thought and the ideas as best I can, and take the blows, but I have found myself watching for the boundary of the struggle session. This is a downward spiral I do not want to follow.
To exactly the same extent that the election could not have been otherwise, so too our clever strategies (or lack thereof) can also not be otherwise. But the illusions have their own value….
What “triggers” me is when people who ought to know better are sore losers – like Trump. Biden’s speech the other day had exactly the right tone. Calhoun and Reid could learn from him.
If you ostracise them, you can’t persuade them to vote for somebody else.
It’s that simple.
As far as I can see, for many Democrats (but of course not all) distancing themselves from the kind of people who vote Trump is far more important than trying to win back their votes. Isn’t this the endpoint of polarisation? Everything you say and do is for the benefit of your own side. There’s no longer any middle ground on which you can engage, and to even suggest there might be is an act of betrayal.
Even simpler: The Other Side should eat worms and die.
Has anyone here ever heard anyone on the right admonish their own side to turn down the hate rhetoric? Has anyone ever heard anyone on the right say to their own side to work across the aisle? Has anyone ever heard anyone on the right condemn anonymous phone calls threatening to kill people’s children over a difference of opinion?
While I agree completely that the suggestions to keep it together and be civil are correct, it strikes me that those suggestions are NEVER aimed at the right, especially by their own philosophical peers. They are completely “justified” in wallowing in their rage.
Well, no, they are not.
L
About a year ago I decided to start following some popular conservative accounts on X. I’m liberal, but wanted to see what they and their commentators were like in their own spaces.
While I’ve certainly seen appalling examples of deranged hatred of the Left, I’ve seen plenty of examples of people on the right admonishing hate rhetoric, wanting to work across the aisle, and condemning death threats. They disagree with each other, too. For some reason though it gets less press.
I’m glad to hear that, Sastra. After being in the restaurant business for the past seven years in a pretty red area, I can attest that the hateful stuff here comes pretty much completely from the right wingers. They are not all like that, and the ones who are aren’t always like that. But the anger is always there, just below the surface, and sometimes comes boiling up. With one or two exceptions, I haven’t heard one of them express any kindness or concern for another person.
So it is heartening to hear that there may be some humanity in some of them. Do you suppose they ever express it in public? Or, might they be afraid that if they do, they will be savaged?
My favorite comment along those lines is, “Trump won’t hurt us, he’ll only hurt the people who NEED to be hurt.”
L
That’s been my experience. I read Right press to balance my information. I have not seen “reach across the aisle and lower the temperature” advice. It is anathema to the trump message.
Not just anathema to the message.
Authoritarians demand an extreme level of conformity. As Sastra above has noted, among themselves they might very well tell their peers to tone it down. But if anyone strays from THE MESSAGE to the outside world, they have a perfect self-correcting mechanism to keep their members in line, and it goes, “You don’t like what we’re doing to THEM? Watch this; you’re next,” whereupon they turn on their own with all the venom they usually reserve for outsiders.
L
There’s a difference between what people on the right are actually saying and what is reported by media looking to combine getting clicks with demonizing republicans. People like MGT do not represent the majority of R voters. This is a big distinction.
Of course it goes the other way too. If you look at Breitbart, you’ll read about idiots on the left and selective reporting on stories.
The media (and politicians) love to do false truths: start with a story that has some truth to it, and then turn it into a falsehood (good people hoax).
They also look to find things that are relatively normal, or at any rate not changing vs past results, and then by highlighting them turn them into the “Current Thing”. They do this to elicit a reaction in the populace and turn us against each other. Much of this type of reporting can be followed back to interest groups who have some agenda that they wish to carry out, whether political or profit related, or both. The movement then can feed itself – stories about protestors taking to the streets in support or opposition of the current thing can fuel more protestors taking to the street.
It’s important to step back and think about how much impact some of these things actually have in one’s life.
I’ve seen hatefulness on the right but I don’t associate with such people. There’s not very many like that in my experience.
I started on the left but gradually in the last few years I no longer feel I belong there (I’m Canadian so this is not about Trump).
The NDP and Liberal Party have gone completely woke and I will not vote for them until the progressive craziness stops.
I speak only for myself and respect others’ viewpoints.
Check out Braver Angels org. They did promote/find common ground over the election.
Perhaps Joy Reid and Laura Helmuth could assuage their bitter disappointment in the US population the way Kathy Boudin did before them—by robbing a US armored delivery car and shooting its security guards. Oh wait, that really didn’t help much.
A more productive approach seems to be to actually “leave it” if they can not “love it” or at least “generally tolerate it”. YMMV.
It doesn’t surprise me that a chief resident in psychiatry at Yale is advising people to not “be around (Trump voters) and tell them why.” I’ve always believed that one of the many sources of the current culture of victimhood is the runaway influence of therapy in the 80’s and 90’s, during which we were all encouraged to analyze ourselves and others as suffering from various clinical levels of psychological syndromes. This didn’t necessarily help people deal well with others. It may have ultimately lead to cancel culture.
It began with a reasonable movement among therapists who were dealing with patients with extreme emotional damage caused by severely abusive parents or spouses: all else has failed, so they must cut these hopelessly toxic people from their lives in order to heal. But this soon entered the popular consciousness and morphed into advice for everyone dealing with difficult people. Forget all the other approaches — go No Contact. You deserve it.
Lukianoff and Haidt have talked about how catastrophizing and safetyism have lead to the creation of people who see themselves as fragile victims. Therapeutic culture with its assurance that “we’re all dysfunctional “ has certainly contributed to that. The idea is that one’s emotional wellbeing — or even very existence — is dependent on repudiating and avoiding people who voted for Trump isn’t inconsistent with what psychology has become in the hands of the woke.
The very worst examples I’ve seen are coming from the trans community, many of whom who have been living with the paranoid conviction that people who still classify them as men or women according to their sex are literally denying their humanity and want to see them dead. The new prospect now of being denied medically dubious sex trait modification therapies, being legally prevented from using the facilities of the opposite sex, and being increasingly misgendered without the miscreants suffering penalties has thrown them into a spiral of fear. They’re apparently packing bags to avoid concentration camps and self-harming in droves.
🎯
Well there is a bright side. What with no contact and women taking up the Korean strategy of 4b, the threat of overpopulation to the planet should diminish.
Yes they no longer have to worry about abortion laws now since they are practising the must effective form of contraception.
+1
+1
“avoid being “triggered” by opposing political views”
That’s an absurd stance. If I had cut off all those with opposing views I wouldn’t be vegetarian, anti nukes or a Scottish independence supporter, or so many other things I’ve learned about and changed my views on over the years.
But it’s not just about your own views, how the heck can you get someone else to change THEIR views, if you never speak to them?
The Democrats NEED to speak with people of opposing views to find out *why* they voted for Trump. If they don’t open a dialogue, with a view to winning people back, they will never learn where they went wrong.
What’s being proposed here sounds very similar to Scientology’s practice of “disconnection”, in which members of the Church of Scientology are encouraged to cut ties with family and friends who are critical of the religion. For years the practice of disconnection has been one of the reasons Scientology is widely regarded as more of a cult than a religion, since most other religions don’t make this demand. It’ll certainly be interesting if this practice that exists in Scientology also becomes widespread in the Democratic party.
The Amish and the Jehovah’s Witnesses are two religions which practice “shunning.”
To me, both are abusive cults.
“If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be a genuine anti-Trump left-wing Democrat”. – Luke 14:26 (edited)
“We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America.” — Barack Obama, October 30, 2008
Could it be that people are tired of being “fundamentally transformed”?
Has anyone read “Project 2025”? What’s in store for us and our future will not be good. Especially if you value an intelligent populace. Science education is going to be declared the enemy.
In answer to your headline, Jerry: No.
For many reason, first of which is: We’d be ostracizing so many of our neighbors it would not be very practical. Every demographic went more for Trump in 2024 compared to 2020 except for college-educated, white women. Even 18-29 year old women moved towards Trump.
(Some FB “friends” got the ban-hammer. If they “laughed” at my posts expressing my sadness and disappointment with the election results, then they are not a “friend” in any sense that matters. I put up with a lot of nutty (not to necessarily say deranged) comments on my posts during the campaign; because I really do want to live in an idea lab, not an echo chamber (Tim Urban’s terms). But one neighbor finally also got the ban-hammer before the election because he just dumped BS on my posts, never reacted to any other of my posts, and he became insulting (calling my “uninformed” and lecturing me about science (he’s a creationist). Enough!)
Second: We need to talk to them to understand why the preferred Trump. Folding our arms and calling Trump’s voters “stupid” or similar is a guaranteed losing strategy.
Here’s what I wrote on FB to friends and family (some are Trump voters but the vast majority are firm Dems):
Most commenters on my posting agreed with almost everything I said. A few picked nits with a couple of my statements.
[This may be a double-post and, if so, my apologies. My original comment seems to be lost in edit-limbo somewhere.]
“Folding our arms and calling Trump’s voters “stupid” or similar is a guaranteed losing strategy.”
Except its true, or they were deluded.
This can happen, you know.
How do you keep people from voting whom you don’t approve of?
Age-old problem with universal suffrage.
Indeed. Various less-universal schemes have been tried over the centuries (based on sex, property, heredity title, race, religion, and I’m sure many other attributes), but all have shown themselves to be less than satisfactory….
If that’s the best the Dems can come up with, then they (we) are going to lose, again and again.
+1
I don’t think the nation lurched to the right as much as they rejected the increased lurching to the left.
In terms of voting for a woman, and a non-white woman, had Nikki Haley won the republican nomination and ran against Harris, we would have elected one regardless of which one won. Republicans didn’t reject Haley as much as they chose Trump; she lasted longer than DeSantis, who was originally seen to be the far-stronger candidate. And she probably would have beaten Harris easily as well.
Wow. As somebody who once was President of the Yale Psychiatric Resident’s Association (we didn’t have chief residents back then), may I suggest that Dr. Calhoun may need a mental health check of her own.
I have family members who voted for Trump (3 times). They chose him because they are racists and homophobes, and they hate Democrats. They don’t vote on issues or policy, and they don’t have evidence-based worldviews.
We have several married gay/lesbian friends and neighbors. Good people who are now anxious about what might happen to their marriages. I live in Texas among Latino citizens and undocumented families. Many have worked on my home or in my yard. They are proud people who work hard and respect the law. They are now the hunted.
So it is wrong if I decide to divorce myself from those family members? I should not listen to my conscience? This isn’t about politics, or partisanship, or my team lost. This is about decency, morality, ethics, and compassion.
Your undocumented workers don’t respect the law or they would not be in this country illegally.
We can agree that a better path for allowing workers into this country should be implemented, but I can’t agree that someone who is actively breaking the law is respecting the law.
In principle, I agree that immigration reform is necessary but it is more complex than that when you have tens of millions of people who are an integral part of our economy.
New analysis by the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP) found that undocumented residents paid $25.7 billion into Social Security funds and $6 billion into Medicare in 2022; both programs that they are not entitled to use. In total, undocumented immigrants paid $96.7 billion, or roughly $9,000 per person, in taxes in 2022. Altogether, undocumented people paid a total of $96.7 billion in taxes in 2022, with $59.4 billion paid to the federal government and the remaining $37.3 billion paid to state and local authorities.
Here in Texas they make up 40% of the construction workforce. So deporting them just craters the economy and impacts SS and Medicare funding. It is cruel to these workers and their families and hurts the rest of us (who aren’t rich) as well.
A couple of things:
“I am embarrassed before the world that we chose Trump to hold the most important job in the country, but there it is.” This is exactly how I feel. As the British would tell us, keep calm and carry on.
Also, I have a relative who voted for Trump. I already know that debating politics with her is pointless, so when it came up I told her that we had to change the subject. From there we continued a polite and friendly conversation. Unless the relative is a complete a**, it’s really not hard. I recently saw a sign that said “Agree to disagree agreeably”. Not always possible, but seems like a reasonable goal.
And, it seems as if society now embraces wretched excess as simply a form of emotional awareness. Don’t question why you can’t handle your emotions, go ahead and indulge, it’s a good way to improve your “mental health”. Shun those who have “made you” feel this way, cause Ceiling Cat knows, it ain’t your responsibility.
Snarkiness aside, mental health issues can be tough, but so often now it seems as if they are being reduced to constitute something that looks a lot like entitlement. As the song says, you can’t always get what you want.
And I should add an acknowledgement that there are some nasty people in the world. I am not saying that anyone should force themselves to associate with such people, no matter the relation or lack thereof. In my case, my relative is a good person, if in my view somewhat misguided, and I don’t feel that I should end or suspend our relationship over her political views. My feelings can handle it.
There are a few comments about cults – as in, actual cults, not just like fans of some football team.
Here are some authors to find for more serious consideration of the heretofore generally not-taken-exactly-seriously problem of….
Cults In Our Midst
Margaret Thaler Singer
(With Janja Lalich)
1995
Jossey Bass, publishers
Steven Hassan – website as well as books.
Cultish – The Language of Fanaticism
Amanda Montell
Harper 2021
And just to emphasize that Communism is a cult :
Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism — A Study of “Brainwashing” in China
Robert J. Lifton
W. W. Norton & Co., Inc., New York
1961
And also Lifton’s Losing Reality.
We had the Voice referendum in Australia last year and the outcome did sully the national discourse for a while with those voting No accused of being racists and all the usuals.
The truth of the matter is that polling, at the start, showed very large levels of support. As the government did a really bad job of subsequently promoting it, communicating it, discussing criticism, etc. then the vote changed overwhelmingly to No.
Did all those people just become racists? (I think we’re talking something like 70% for to 70% against, but worth checking those numbers.) No, of course not. The impulse was to support the Aboriginal Peoples.
The left’s refusal to acknowledge this will mean they’ll lose future opportunities and disadvantage the Aboriginal Peoples further. It’s so stupid.
The same is occurring in America post-Trump (and has done before). Like the man or not, he has run on some excellent policies. Or at least policy that serves to pushback on the Left’s loony fringe ideas. Within days he’s announcing a ban on affirmative therapy for children hoping to trans and enacting law that allows those that were medicated/operated upon to seek legal recourse against medical practitioners. Brilliant.
If it wasn’t for the cult of personality working AGAINST Trump I suspect his win would have been far greater.
Just the two cents of a Brit living in Aus, so dismiss as you like 🙂
In my view it wasn’t the old guards of either who voted whomever in. It was the middle ground, they voted him in, they voted him out and back in again.
With the majority of the country voting Trump and the minority voting for Harris the more likely canceling will be a Trump voters canceling and ostracizing Harris voters. The three nerds, by sitting at their own table in the school cafeteria, are not shunning the 10 popular kids at the cool kids table. That’s not how this works. The best parties. The most exclusive clubs and organizations. The majority in the most desirable social settings are apparently Trump voters. The odd few out are the Harris voters. The tiny minority can’t cancel the majority in any mileau. Harris suporters that want to seperate themselves from Trump supporters are choosing to not participate in polite society because they are the minority. All they can do is take themselves off the guest list and stay home. Sounds lonely, but if that’s what they want? I have not heard of anyone on the right talking about canceling, ostracizing, or creating a list of undesirables in the community who are no longer welcome because they voted wrong.
It comes down to the meaning of “endorsed/voted for Trump”. If the friend is a bit of an idiot, ignorant, politically illiterate, or misinformed, then the meaning is in these traits and their magnitude, and whether they are important for the relationship.
But if the friend voted Trump because he approves of mass deportation, billionaires who want to end democracy and rooting out the ”vermin” of political dissidents (Trump’s language), then the meaning lies in what this says about your friend.
I personally unsubscribed from every Trump endorser, and consider giving support to Rogan, Boghossian, Hirsi Ali and many more a sign of a callous, fascistic attitude which I simply don’t want on my timeline. Nothing is lost, because Trumpism builds gradually and announces itself with onset of utterly ridiculous, hypocritical and truly Orwellian talking points. Persecuting political opponents in the name of free speech, and such things.
Boghossian now wants to help the Trump regime in matters of education, for instance, and I assume help with “rooting out” the Marxist “vermin” Trump spoke of, and maybe hunt down professors, because according to JD Vance, they are “the enemy” (actual terms used by Trump/Vance). Do you want such friends? Up to you.
I didn’t think this strongly the last time and remained “heterodox” all the way, even though the Trump term. But over time, this whole corner was captured by the US far right anway — of course never acknowledged — and I tuned out of most of it already, because it was deeply uninteresting and predictable. It’s a spitting mirror image of the woke corner.
Driving Tesla in the future is something to be ashamed of, listenting to Rogan from now on is like attending Nazi rallies. It depends on the gut punch that is to come, of course. I assume the Polish friends are also not keen with people who jeopardise our safety (Trump is very anti-NATO) and are willing to throw everyone under Putin’s bus. This gives a good feeling about how many Americans must feel as they worry about the fate of other people in their lives.
So yes, Trumpists should be shunned and shamed and made responsible for everything that will happen and if they have a biography, will be there forever.
If one feels that way, OK. But so far, it was mostly Democrats who threw everyone under Putin’s bus. Clinton disarmed Ukraine and falsely promised to defend it with the Budapest Memorandum, Obama reset the relations with Russia right after it grabbed land from Georgia, then did nothing after it grabbed Crimea from Ukraine and started the war in Donbass, and Biden gave Ukraine not real aid but cruel imitation of aid (I am citing a Ukrainian here) because he was afraid of “escalation” in case Russia would lose. Before the elections, supposed opponents of Trump have bullied and gaslighted me here for being pro-Ukraine.
Besides, I don’t think everyone voting for Democrats should be held responsible for their excesses such as transing children, destroying female sport, letting male predators into women-only spaces, making the border open, and forcing DEI down people’s throats.
Well, no. Whatever you think about Trump as a person and as a President of the U.S. when it comes to NATO he had a point during his first term. Europe, NATO and Poland owe him a lot. Europe is a rich continent and should be responsible for its own defence. For years America paid the bulk of NATO’s expenses and Europe was a “free rider”. We could get richer because we didn’t have to pay so much for our defence, always counting on America. Europe was in a bit better position to help Ukraine 2022 because Trump forced European NATO countries to beef up their own defences. And it was Trump who deployed some American troops to Poland so we do not feel that he is ready (or even willing) to abandon us to the tender mercies of Putin. Of course, we do not know what will happen now with Ukraine. The war of attrition which is going on because of all the restrictions the Biden administration put on their use of American weapons is unsustainable and horribly bloody. Of course, I have no idea what Trump’s policy towards Ukraine is going to be. But I know that thanks to Trump Europe is in a better position to help Ukraine than it was before Trump.
Bertrand Russell timeless advice quoted:
“If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do.” (mostly)
“A good way of ridding yourself of certain kinds of dogmatism is to become aware of opinions held in social circles different from your own.” (recommended)
“For those who have enough psychological imagination, it is a good plan to imagine an argument with a person having a different bias.” (free yourself from the shackles of dogma)
This advice is enlightenment advice and that might be tough ideologically for some, but still it has wisdom, Calhoun is not very smart, and shrinks are overrated! You want a connected and flourishing world, take Russell advice despite his whiteness!
Maybe the Republicans could offer the Democrats an olive branch by passing two big pieces of reform that the Democrats have been wanting to pass during the Biden years that never quite got done: increasing the Supreme Court to 13 members, and eliminating the filibuster.
If these ideas are important to preserve democracy, as experts have said, then it shouldn’t matter which party passes them. The Democrats couldn’t do it but were only short a couple of senators to get the filibuster eliminated. With all the Democrat senators gladly supporting it, maybe there will be enough Republican senators who will support it too in the name of political harmony and reconciliation, and ideally do it withing Trump’s first 100 days to set the tone for his presidency. Maybe, just maybe, fingers crossed, there could be a few Republicans who might support these reforms and join the Democrats in saving democracy.
Proof for D support below:
“Congress must pass reforms that add seats to the Supreme Court so we can restore balance, judicial independence, meaningful checks and balances and protect the rights of all Americans.” https://schiff.house.gov/news/press-releases/schiff-markey-colleagues-push-to-expand-supreme-court-amidst-crisis-of-confidence#:~:text=Congress%20must%20pass%20reforms%20that,the%20rights%20of%20all%20Americans.%E2%80%9D
Letting the Filibuster Stand Will Break American Democracy
https://time.com/6110731/steny-hoyer-filibuster-senate/
Late to this thread. I have stayed way from the comment thread for the duration of the election except to note my early support for the Democratic ticket.
Angela said it best: “Es ist ernst.”
Ecocatastrophe cultural disaster blues.
There will be a general increase in human misery and many things that we value will be degraded or destroyed.
Emotional management is important. There’s a lot of legitimate generalized anxiety and free-floating anger. Anger may be directed outwardly (at Republicans and their allies) and/or within and around the Democrats (thanks a lot, Joe) and should’ve could’ve would’ve threads.
We have to do business with some of the these people. I wouldn’t argue with republican relatives or acquaintances. I would not cut them out of my life, but I see not reason to seek them out or pretend they are cool.
I will not inflame my friends or relative with self-spiral speculations about what next or “what went wrong”.
I’m lucky. I’m old. I live in a blue bubble. I have intellectual interests — unfortunately, in areas of science and ecology that will degraded by trump policy. But I can devote myself to a major ecological restoration property and continue thinking about viruses.
The likelihood of significant positive developments within my lifetime is low.
Trump voters may be very fine people most of the time, but it is fair to question their judgment and standards. He is unquestionably totally unqualified to be President for many self-evident reasons which have been well documented. Many officials who worked with him (including his VP for Christ’s sake), refused to support him and many national security experts said that he should never be allowed in the Oval Office again. The US has disgraced itself. Future historians will say WTF were those people thinking?
>“Unquestionably totally unqualified. . .”
The only qualification for elected office is that the voters elect the guy. Claiming that the voters exercised poor judgment and should have elected someone else is a logical contradiction. Your candidate lost. Accept that and nominate a more electable candidate next time. Maybe that candidate really will have to be what you consider a misogynist racist white guy. Otherwise you sound like an election denier.
Anyone applying for a job must meet certain qualifications to get hired and to do the job. As demonstrated by his past performance and the statements of many who served under him and others with government experience, as well as many other factors, he is not and never will be qualified to do the job. You apparently have no standards.
So who enforces your standards on the democratically elected but unqualified? You already tried to get him off the ballot on the insurrection thing. And failed. You are an election denier if you say, “Well, the voters elected him but he’s not legitimately the President because he’s unqualified.”
If he imposes tariffs on stuff we export to the U.S. can we use that argument to ask U.S. Customs not to charge the tariff to your importing firm because their Chief Executive is not really in office? It’s some other guy (or gal) who didn’t get elected but was better qualified?
I understand how sour grapes can lead to good rule changes: an infielder can’t (now) pick up a deliberately dropped fly ball and touch second for a double play. What rule changes are you proposing that would keep unqualified candidates from winning elections? Or taking office if they won anyway? Think hard about the implications of what you’re saying.
A convicted felon and a convicted sexual predator has won the Presidency.
Quite an achievement.
Nelson Mandela was the leader of the military wing of the African National Congress and went to prison for his long campaign of violence to destabilize the South African government and root out black collaborators, in which people actually died. And he became President, too, a hero no less. Good thing his record didn’t disqualify him.
Excellent point.
If the Democrats had behaved as if they loved this country instead of just themselves, they would achieved more. Kamala Harris was a hopelessly flawed candidate that was not Democratically chosen…..of course she was doomed to fail.