What not to say to an atheist

December 19, 2014 • 8:00 am

by Grania

The Christmas Wars are upon us again, and to mark the season of family get-togethers,  Herb Silverman has written an interesting piece at OnFaith  called Seven Things not to say to the Atheist in your Family. I’m pretty sure that many of us have heard one or more of these from well-meaning (sometimes) but concerned family and friends on occasion, from “Why are you angry at God?” to “We just want to be sure you make it to heaven”.

My least favorite was: “Please pray about it” closely followed by “be more open-minded”. There is no concise but civil response to that. You can spend some time explaining why that has no meaning at all to a non-believer, you can do your best to avoid pointing out that you’ve tried that one before and didn’t work that time either, and you can definitely do your best to not point out that you have better things to do with your time. The best you can do is pour yourself another glass of wine and go and have a chat with the four-legged denizens of the household.

What are your least favorite utterances from family gatherings?

488 thoughts on “What not to say to an atheist”

  1. My mother regularly tells me she’ll pray for me (and my kids) because I’m an atheist. How would people here respond to that? I’ve seen one suggestion that I quite like:

    “Okay … and may the force be with you.”

    I really don’t want to be rude to my mother but I don’t want to let it pass without comment either.

        1. I responded a couple times to the “I will pray for you” with “and I will sacrifice a chicken for you.” But, it offended/hurt the people quite a bit so I stopped saying that.

      1. That’s a nice tack, for those we really don’t want to hurt and know we’ll never convince otherwise.

    4. “I really don’t want to be rude to my mother but I don’t want to let it pass without comment either.”

      One of the ladies working at Hobby Lobby once said the same thing to me. I smiled at her and enthusiastically said “Thank you!”

      Make no mistake, this “I’ll pray for you” is an aggressive remark and the best riposte is to show that you’re utterly unaffected by it.

      1. Yes. It’s important to understand that in this context, ie, when not offered as consolation upon hearing bad news, “I’ll pray for you” is textbook passive aggression.

        1. No it’s not. It’s usually someone who cares but couldn’t begin to comprehend what the atheist believes and why expressing a kind intention.

          The appropriate response in such a case is “thank you”.

          Where it’s clear that someone actually is being any kind of aggressive, the appropriate response is to take the high road and not contribute to his or her suffering. That kind of behavior is textbook projection — if someone is so easily upset by another’s lack of belief, doesn’t that speak volumes about the depth of their own conviction?

          1. Did I write that the appropriate response isn’t to take the high road and simply say “thank you?” No, I didn’t. I agree that that is the appropriate response.

            That doesn’t mean “I’ll pray for you” isn’t at least institutionalized passive aggression. The speaker may indeed not consciously intend any aggression, but the context in which the phrase gets used is along the lines of “we’re all xians around here”, and the subtext is “you need to become like us; that is, you’re not good enough as you are”.

            That is the passive aggressive message the phrase sends whether or not the speaker consciously intends it.

  2. I’m “blessed” not to have this kind of family gathering to deal with. (Small family gathering with no believers to yammer about Jesus.)

        1. Me four – my entire family of some 30+ people
          are all devout atheists. They include 5 sons,5 daughters-in-law,one daughter and one son-in-law, six grand-children and their partners and three great-grand children. I know – it sounds like “and a partridge in a pear-tree”.

          5. Here in NY, we have two beaches – along the banks of the Hudson. But alas they are not very sandy.

            You don’t suppose…

          6. Alas, all our beaches have cacti living in them…and, as much as they appreciate water, I don’t think they appreciate it quite that much….

            b&

          7. Oh, right. I forgot about the cactus. They would not do so well. Especially since the tides are quite saline as far north as Poughkeepsie (90 miles upstream).

    2. I’m almost glad to be offshore over Xmas. there’s still lots of the cant and hypocrisy, and an absolute metric shitload of people wishing they were somewhere else and wandering around with a fixed rictus on their faces.
      My normal procedure is to load the office fruit bowl up at breakfast time and skip the whole farce.

        1. None of them.
          Sometimes it’s simplest to dodge problems. Bloody mud men have been playing music in the office all morning – either have an argument, or stick the ear phones in and settle down to an interesting podcast (SETI Institute, as mentioned recently) on “Earthquakes and Archaology”. “Ear phones” isn’t an euphemism either.

          2. The maths of QM has always been way over my head (I barely made it to 1st year university standard), but I’ve never particularly found the uncertainty principle to be upsetting.
            I’ve had a few mutterings about pilot wave theory as an “underlying principle” below both classical mechanics and quantum mechanics. The buig test is, of course, going to be bringing gravity in from the cold.

  3. “Atheists don’t want to believe in God.”

    I believed in God for many years. I finally came to the conclusion that it was not a valid belief. My lack of belief has nothing to do with “wanting” to believe or not believe.

    1. That is well said, and a point often missed by believers who are puzzled by non-believers.

      I wish I could believe in an all-powerful sky-daddy who will make everything better some day. I used to as a child, and it was a comforting thought. But once the sky-daddy joins Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny in their retirement home for comforting ideas discredited by reality, it’s hard to seriously consider letting him out.

      1. I would actually guess that theism is not as comforting to as many people as is often claimed.

        I vividly remember being a young teenager living in fear of “The Second Coming™” because I was not prepared, that is, I had not confessed my grievous sins, chief among them the one of which you can be damn sure all teenagers are “guilty”. Thoughts of god were not comforting.

        Thankfully, I wasn’t really consumed by this fear as I already had significant doubts brewing, but many people are consumed by it. It is an awful thing to instill that fear in a child.

          2. Southern Baptist guilt is not far behind.

            Positioned for a reach-around?
            That’s what it’s all about, at the end of the day. And before lunch too, if you’ve got the time.

          3. Where does the office fruit bowl fit in to this scenario?

            Also, I remember (as a Catholic 6 year old – or rather the child of a Catholic parent) being unable to not think the phrase “Fuck off Jesus” while lying in bed at night, and feeling horribly guilty and damned for it. Good times! 🙁

          5. My friend (Jewish tradition) and myself (Catholic tradition) have laughed ourselves silly discussing who’s got more guilt. She points out that her tradition has had thousands more years to perfect their techniques.

          6. Not that either of us thought it funny to beat one’s self up with guilt, but we did try to point out to each other when we were letting guilt affect our emotions/actions/decisions.

          10. She points out that her tradition has had thousands more years to perfect their techniques …

            … of evading the guilt?

          11. Benoit,

            I am saddened by your comment. I have a beautiful nephew and niece, adorable young adults both, whom I fear have been inoculated in Catholic guilt by their terrified mother. I’ve held out hope that once out of her clutches they might escape the inanity, and perhaps that’s still so to some extent, if not completely?

            Are you in any way related to the incredible Camille Leblanc-Bazinet, the reigning Crossfit Women’s Champion? I know the likelihood is slim, but it’s a rare name, at least around these parts (Oklahoma).

        2. I had not confessed my grievous sins, chief among them the one of which you can be damn sure all teenagers are “guilty”. Thoughts of god were not comforting.

          There are two types of people in this world : those who admit to being wankers, and liars.
          OK – there are probably a few psychotics who don’t wank. Hopefully they’re in locked wards somewhere.

          1. I’m reminded that this activity has not been a topic of U.S. national/general conversation for a while since William Jefferson Clinton was “offended” by the comment, and forced the resignation, of his Surgeon General for suggesting the activity as effectively a safety measure. No way he was he ever going to put himself in a position to have to admit, “I did not have group sex with that widow and her four daughters.”

  4. Pardon the length:
    Our family rotates the hosting of major holiday celebrations among all of the married siblings in my wife’s large, Catholic family. At our house we have hosted Easter, Christmas, Thanksgiving, Birthdays, Anniversaries… you name it. Without fail, each time the family gathers at our house and we shout, “Come to the table. The meal is ready.” , my wife’s father, Jim, will say “Who’s going to say grace?” This is always followed be a traditional Catholic,

    “Bless us Oh, Lord, and These thy gifts, which we are about to receive from thy bounty, Through Christ our Lord, Amen.”

    This has been a constant irritant to me, for far too many years. If invited, would Jim go to a Jewish Seder and insist on saying grace? If you’re a fan of “Curb Your Enthusiasm” you’ve seen this played out.
    I know it is my own fault for not saying anything, and now 17 years into the marriage I smile and bite my lip, hoping Jim will realize his faux pas and knowing that there are bigger battles in the world. It’s tough coming down hard on an 85 year old man. Nevertheless, I try…

    Once I made an end-run by rushing hot food to the table and insisting everyone dig in, but I think Jim was on to me right away. At the next event, sensing I was going for a repeat, he called everyone to the table early so that we could get grace in before the food got cold.

    I thought I had reached the perfect accord one Thanksgiving, when I wrote an “Atheist Grace.” That’s my title… I didn’t call it that at Thanksgiving. We came to the table, and when Jim asked “Who’s saying grace?” I quickly jumped in.

    “I’ve got it this time, Jim.” I spoke as reverently and with as much heartfelt emotion as I could impart to the words:

    May we all be thankful for this food, and for every person along the path that brought it to our table.

    May we all be thankful for how truly lucky we are to be HERE, today, given the alternatives in our world.

    And may we all be thankful for the hearts and hands that have lifted and carried each of us to our place in life…

    Turn inward, and remember and give thanks to those who helped you be who you are and where you are.

    Turn outward and extend the same generosity, wisdom and friendship you have received, into the lives of others.

    And when we leave this table today,
    May we strive to bring a measure of happiness into the world around us
    May we all take the nourishment of food, and love, and time with family
    And use it to spread some good in our lives and into the world.

    Enjoy this meal!

    Bowed heads raised. A few casual, confused “Amens” wafted over the table. Hungry hands reached for the turkey, potatoes and gravy, and I thought I had finally made my point in a win-win way… until Jim looked at me and said, “That would have been real nice if you would have just mentioned God. Now let’s say grace. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit… Bless us oh…” etc.

    As Vonnegut said in “Slaughterhouse Five,” and so it goes.

      2. Yes, that was incredibly rude of him to dismiss your invocation as somehow less because it didn’t mention his favorite deity. I’m an abrasive sort, I probably would have called him to the rug on it right then.

        1. It’s a good example of how religion warps judgment.

          Here you have, by any measure, an eloquent, meaningful call to be thankful to those who deserve it and to go out and do your own part in making the world a better place. Anybody, including theists, should be able to recognize that this is a great message.

          But insert this message into a context where some religious nonsense usually goes and suddenly it’s not good enough.

          Because “Praise Jeebus!” is a much better message. Pfffff.

        2. to dismiss your invocation as somehow less because it didn’t mention his favorite deity.

          Next year it’ll be a calamari meal and calling down the wrath of (according to taste) Chthulu or PZ?

    4. Your “grace” is right on the mark. Everyone should have known that.

      How would mentioning “god” have improved it?

      At least it brought the conflict into the open, made the sides very clear, and let everyone see where he and you are coming from. Jim chose to make it a conflict, where that was entirely unnecessary. I’m sure everyone noted that fact.

      It might do to jump in after he says grace next time and say: That would have been nice if you’d mentioned the people we have to be thankful for, and dive into your grace …

    6. You made your point beautifully to yourself, your family (and us) — and Jim is a cranky 85 year old man who is set in his ways but probably got the point anyway.

      And that is a wonderful grace. I’m cut ‘n pasting it into my Humanist Ritual file.

      1. ” . . . set in his ways . . . .”

        Reminds me of the old excuse, ‘That’s jest thuh way Ah wuz raised.”

        From my experience in dealing with s certain relative, “set in ones ways” is a euphemism for “possesses a bountiful sense of entitlement and self-regard.” I.e., solipsism.

        One doesn’t have to say out loud everything that pops into ones mind, especially in a potentially-explosive family gathering, and especially if one travels a “fer piece” to attend. I’ve certainly had an intense urge to “cuss out” a certain family member over the years who can’t hold her freakin’ tongue. There’s always “The Bigger Picture” to necessarily accomplish.

        As a college career advisor told me some years ago, “You can’t control another person’s actions, but you can control your own response to them.”

        1. “You can’t control another person’s actions, but you can control your own response to them.”

          I actually heard that same message from a priest when I was a kid and it’s a valuable one I’ve always carried with me. Sometimes you can find a gold nugget in a pile of manure I guess.

          1. Yes I should add good job as well.

            For Thanksgiving, it is also nice to thank the food scientists, farmers and grocery stores as well as the politicians who keep the economy strong. 🙂

          2. Re: “farmers”:

            Some of them are called “growers,” eh? I.e., they don’t (to employ Southern Appalachian parlance) “strike a lick” at harvesting produce. Rather, the migrant workers, whom growers pay a pittance, do the actual work. In Amuricuh, growers complain that Amuricuhns won’t do the work for a pittance.

    8. We’ve ad newcomers to holiday diners who’ve said grace, but it’s never stopped everyone else from digging in and enjoying the food.

        1. That reminds me of the scene in I Heart Hucksbees where the two guys go into a Xian home and get Ina big argument with the family at dinner. The family was clearly open hearted but wrong headed and one of the guys throws a bun at the dad and they are kicked out. They stand outside the house and ask, “what was going on in there?”

    10. That’s much more creative than anything I managed to come up with when hosting Xmas or Thanksgiving.

      I usually just say that butterball now “pre-blesses” everything at their facility before shipping their turkeys. This usually puts the issue to bed pretty quick…although I don’t get asked to host the holidays anymore now that I think about it 🙂

    11. The next time it’s at your house and Jim says “Let’s say grace”, reply “those who wish to, go ahead” and start helping yourself to the food. Let everyone decide for themselves.

        1. At my mother’s mother’s house, we would sing grace, basically travelling the octave, whatever key we would happen to be in:

          “For____ health and strength and daily food we praise thy name O Lord___. Ah___-Men.”

          Were it that I could still be graced by my grandmother’s presence, I trust that I could reasonably continue to be a willow and not an oak, and cheerfully sing along, if only for her sake, as she was a bobbing cork – a wonderful role model – of congeniality and civility in an otherwise more times than not churning, “wild and wasteful” (Shakespeare) ocean of familial orneriness.

      2. Someone in the story thinks that there is patriarchal authority somewhere around the table and is determined to exercise it.

    13. I love your story, and your “grace”. I hope you don’t mind that I’m keeping a copy of both.

    14. Great tale, and I think a wonderful reaction to your particular situation. Nicely done1

      In general, though, I wouldn’t want to have to sit through a long & preachy atheist grace any more than a goddist one. Either one seems a bit too presumptuous to me.

        1. That’s always struck me as satisfactorily minimalist.

          Was it before or after his Catholicism that Grandpa approved?

  5. Least favourite?

    ‘There’s no beer left’ I think was the worst ever.

    But nothing or a faith-based or religious nature ever I’m pleased to report.

  6. My toughest experience was at my brother’s funeral, where we had a church service complete with eulogy and then people stood around talking piously about him being in heaven and stuff. Since he was as godless as I am . . .

    1. I had some horrific experience at the funeral of an elderly colleague of mine. He was an atheist, bust his religious sisters enforced a Catholic funeral anyway. The priest was drunken during the funeral (I am 99% sure of that based on his erratic, halting speech and other things) and mistaken the name of the deceased. At that point it was something of relief that I knew he could not watch this…

      1. Surely he would have loved the idea of subverting the system? I mean the drunk priest?
        I love the idea of a heaven stuffed full of ‘saved’ atheists who are not believers – if you see what I mean!

    2. Reminds me of the George Carlin bit when he asks, “How come no one at funerals ever says, ‘Oh, I wonder how he’s doing, running around down there‘?”

      1. Indeed.

        I wonder if realthog’s brother’s atheism was generally known. If not, I further wonder what the theists who “knew” he was in heaven would’ve said upon learning of his atheism. It might’ve been a learning experience wrt when one can say one “knows” something.

    4. I’ve had two bad experiences at funerals.

      The first was a deeply Catholic service held in Milwaukee for a long term regular in #atheism dal.net who was not only an outspoken atheist, but who had particular distaste for the Catholicism in which he’d been raised. He loathed it. Unfortunately, he had committed suicide (lost his job and battle with alcoholism and (apparently) depression) and his mother had apparently insisted on a funeral steeped in religion. It was as if the deceased was a devout Catholic.

      He and his mom did NOT get along so we strongly suspected there was as much spite as grief here — but my two fellow chatroom commenters and I decided it wasn’t the place or time to raise objections (we did give each other speaking looks from time to time — e gads, it was bad.)

      After the service, however, I did go up to the rather embarrassed-looking priest and gently tell him that we were from #atheism and had loved and respected the deceased … both as a person and as an atheist. That’s all I said. He was an atheist and a good man.

      Later on, #atheism held a real memorial service — one which actually remembered the person who died.

      The second bad experience was also a case where a religious funeral was given for an “out” atheist. The weird thing was that I’d only met the man a week before after a two-page story on him appeared in the local paper titled something like “Proud To Be An Atheist.” He gave a strong, well-reasoned, and no-holds-barred interview. The Letters to the Editor went nuts in outrage. I’d called him on the phone, introduced myself, and we met the next day for coffee, conversation and in hopes of planning a local group. Two days later he was dead — and I went to the funeral.

      His family had been Jewish and fairly liberal so I was shocked when the “chaplain” gave a ceremony drenched in God and God-talk, with no mention at all that the deceased was an atheist and had just made himself notorious. It was God, God, God, and he’s not dead.

      I heard from some of the relatives that they’d simply left the entire sermon up to a chaplain from the local hospital. When I spoke politely to the chaplain afterwards about whether a more humanist ceremony might have been more appropriate to my surprise she got very snippy. She hadn’t mentioned Jesus. Not once. She did ecumenical services which worked for everyone.

      But he was an atheist, not a Jew, I explained. The service didn’t reflect his views, or who he was, or what he would have wanted. She then told me that she would have no idea what to say for an atheist. None. There’s nothing out there. Nor could there be, her tone said. I was surprised by the contempt, because I was both quite tactful and tear-stained.

      I was mad enough later to copy off about 20 humanist funeral services and readings and mail the big fat package to her with a kind note hoping she would be pleased to have some resources for when this situation occurs again, as it is likely since atheism is growing. She might even want to use some of this reserve for funerals in general, it was so beautiful and appropriate for all. Thank you so much.

      She may have used them, she may have read them, she probably threw them in the trash and washed her hands afterwards. But dag nab it if she ever said to anyone else that gosh, she just had no idea what anyone could possibly say at an atheist funeral then she would KNOW she was lying.

      1. But dag nab it if she ever said to anyone else that gosh, she just had no idea what anyone could possibly say at an atheist funeral then she would KNOW she was lying.

        As I’ve said before, it’s more fun than pulling the wings off flies, and ethically it is much more defensible.

    5. I had a friend who died years ago who was about as atheist as I am. The funeral was arranged by his born-again Evangelical brother, and a riot very nearly started over it.

    6. My Dad’s funeral was presided over by my brother (a Salvation Army Officer) who used the occasion to preach how atheists have no hope and are joyless.

    7. I expect that’ll happen at my funeral (if I die before my wife). She’s Cook Island Christian and so probably are most of her family (a few are Catholic), there may be a few closet atheists.

      But if it makes them happy and consoles my wife to have a meaningless religious ceremony, it won’t worry me, I’ll be dead so I won’t have to sit through it will I?

      1. No, it won’t worry you at the time, but it might worry you now to consider that your both your memory and your legacy can’t and won’t be respected. They can have their religious consolation in some venue which isn’t supposed to be about the deceased. They can do it over and over again as much as they want without depriving themselves or demeaning you.

        I would set up a religious funeral for a religious relative or friend even if I knew or suspected that nobody else in the room was religious. If the departed was a fervent animal rights activist I would not fill the ceremony with paeons to hunting and animal research. Doesn’t matter. If they were a feminist or a environmentalist or a naturopath or a creationist people should not use the opportunity of a time set aside for remembering and loving who they were to deliberately bring up and trash and negate and propagandize for the other side.

        If it’s a sincere belief or cause and not a personal flaw or sickness it wouldn’t matter how wrong the bereaved thought they were or how much “better” they’d feel to finally set everything straight. You choose another time or place to make yourself happy.

        Doing otherwise because ‘atheism is too depressing for us believers’ worries us atheists. So does lumping it in with the ‘things better left forgotten’ like drug addiction, abuse, or criminal record.

        1. Bear in mind that here in NZ atheists aren’t an endangered species. I’d be quite happy to tell anyone who asked that I’m an atheist. But people think religion (or not) is a personal matter and nobody would be so crass as to ask my religion. So I don’t think I need to fight for atheist rights or something. Nobody who knows me will draw any conclusions from the form of my funeral service. I’d say the typical NZer attends church twice in their life – once when they’re married and once when they’re buried.

          However, my wife is religious and most of her family are. And while I think her family’s entitlement to a say in my disposal are very limited, I do owe it to my wife (should I die first) to let her have what consolation she can find. If she likes to think she’ll meet me again in heaven, it would be mean of me to disillusion her. For the same reason I never badmouth her car (she chose it, I think it’s rubbish, but if she wants to think it’s great why should I spoil her enjoyment?)

          Other people’s circumstances may differ.

          1. I should probably add that (unlike the horror stories above) it is highly unlikely that any celebrant at my funeral (whether clergy or a non-denominational ‘celebrant’) would have the bad taste to refer to my lack of religion in any derogatory way, and if he did my wife would shred him. Family ties outrank religion in polynesian circles.

          2. Canadians think it is rude to be public with your religion (though Christians are supposed to evangelize so they do). I’m trying to get Canadians to change their aversion to questioning religious ideas openly. Atheists can seem as rude simply for doing so and I think it’s bad to have ideas as taboo from discussion.

          3. It’s not that discussion of religion is taboo here. It’s just that (like the UK I think) my religion is regarded as a personal thing and I’d no more expect to get asked about it by a stranger than I would who I voted for or whether I’m gay. To that extent, people who make public displays of their religion (other than clergy of course) are regarded with some degree of suspicion of being a little bit weird.

          6. Even in the United States, thanks to the growing trend of secularism (and even some historic notion that religious beliefs are personal), public displays of religion away from religious events can draw some strange looks.

            One rather amusing instance of this happened to me a few months ago; I was on a day hike in the Sierra Nevada mountain range with my mother and my son. The summit was fairly close to treeline and the terrain was becoming more and more rocky as we approached; thus making the marked path more difficult to find. We passed a couple who was descending from the summit and they directed us the correct way. I thanked them and continued on when I hear my mother yelling, “PRAISE JESUS! God is good! He has led us on the right path!” I never saw two people take off so fast.

  7. “What are your least favorite utterances from family gatherings?”
    _

    That I will wind up in the gutter with a mulatto baby. A close second is that they worry about me which is a more generic version of the first, very graphic one. 🙂

    1. You should have that handy Oscar Wilde quote to hand, “We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars”!

      …or if you wanted to be rude, “All women become like their mothers. That is their tragedy”…

  8. Dan Dennett’s response has always appealed to me:

    “I prayed [or will pray] for you”

    “Thank you, but did you [will you] also sacrifice a goat?”

    2. That’s a good one! You could also mix it up with: “are you going to do some divination?” and “Will you also consult the haruspex?”

    3. “I prayed [or will pray] for you”

      My first thought is to respond with a quote from “Rocky and Bullwinkle” —

      “Aw, that trick never works.”

      They probably wouldn’t get the reference.

      1. “This time for sure! Presto!”

        Bullwinkle’s powers are more effective (in show) than any prayer I’ve seen, though. With a proper harness, they may actually do some good!

    4. You can also try: “Thank you, but did your God ever answered to one of your prayer?”

      Desnes

        1. Yup. Raising the bar on what constitutes proper evidence for an answered prayer is treated like being ungrateful for a simple little handmade gift crafted with care and love. Why, those are the best kind of presents/answers, you greedy monster, you!

          It’s the same as the bar for what constitutes a ‘miracle.’ Or ‘a paranormal event which can’t be explained by science.’ The ones which sound truly extraordinary are never well documented. The rest don’t need documentation — only an open heart eager to appreciate.

          1. Raising the bar on what constitutes proper evidence for an answered prayer is treated like being ungrateful for a simple little handmade gift crafted with care and love.

            True … so you craft your original question with care. And spite.
            How about (assuming the target is a buttock-turning Christian) asking “Thank you, but did your God ever answer[ed] to one of your prayer”[s] for someone who has offended you?
            Obviously, as a love-the-sinner-not-the-sin Xtian, they absolutely must pray for people who offend them. And you’re making it personal – it’s a prayer that they have delivered personally to God – and it’s got to be a case where their prayer has been effective for someone who offends them.
            Choosing the question to ask is almost as effective as choosing the question to answer. I’d expect to get a punch in the teeth if I tried this. (Which I’d view as a win.)

          2. Actually, I use a completely different approach.

            I ask “what does an unanswered prayer look like?” And then I wait.

            They can’t come up with any examples, can they? No matter what happens, the believer has put themselves under an obligation — a moral obligation — to come up with some way that any result at all is God’s loving, useful, and faith-supporting “answer.” There’s nothing but spin… so they sputter.

            This is a nice time to get a little philosophically eloquent on how interesting it is that if absolutely everything supports claim X then nothing does, does it? It’s empty. After all, it would make no sense to say “Jenny is a blond” if every color of hair, including bald and headless, is going to be considered “blond.” A = nonA is logical gibberish.

            So they can’t use prayer and claim they get answers. Nobody can — unless they want to lower the bar and make it falsifiable. In other words, let’s throw out “faith” and just look at this rationally. K?

          3. Yeah, I see that approach being discomforting. To the god squaddy. What does an unanswered prayer look like – leaves them in a very cleft stick.
            Where’s that portable petard when you need it?

        2. It is laughably low, and even then they fail to meet the standard. Perhaps the most hackneyed expression one hears from believers is, “God answers all prayers, just sometimes the answer is no.”

          Except it isn’t a fucking answer; in fact, it’s the opposite.

  9. A friend of mine posted about “god haters” on facebook yesterday. I responded but I think she might be ignoring me now. She doesn’t seem to understand this would be like me claiming she’s angry at Harry Potter. I’m not openly atheist, so I don’t have to deal with many comments but I do find that one particular obnoxious.

  10. ‘be more open-minded”. There is no concise but civil response to that.’ –
    Surely you would say ‘I AM being open minded! That is why I don’t believe any goddish nonsense!’
    🙂

    My parents, being proper old style CoE were never bible bashers so I never got into silly arguments like that. In fact, I probably never explicitly said to my parents that I was an atheist, & the only really memorable thing my poor old pa said on Christmas Day was ‘I think I am having a stroke’, which sort of took the shine off the holiday & the following year (he died 13th Dec after)!

    I don’t mean to sound miserable, in fact I LOVE yuletide, & carols etc -it is a part of my cultural baggage even though I am not religious 😉

    “We just want to be sure you make it to heaven” – that reminds me of another reason for despising religion, the TV version of Brideshead Revisited (I never read it) where Lord Marchmain who has left the church gets pulled back in on his deathbed. Pathetic.
    http://www.abbotshill.freeserve.co.uk/14.htm

    1. What do you mean “no concise but civil” answer to “be more open-minded”?
      Tim Minchin tells us, “Don’t be so open-minded that your brain falls out.”
      I have said, “I am open-minded. I’m open to accepting any evidence as soon as it shows up. You got any?”

      1. That was a quote from Grania… I say I am open minded in being open to evidence. I did not use “” as there was a quote already there & I am never clear about the conventions of ” over “” in quotes within quotes… if you dig my drift!

        Minchin did not originate that quotation about being open-minded –
        http://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/04/13/open-mind/

      2. And all I meant, was that while I have a collection of short and pithy replies to those well-meaning cliches; most of them would be guaranteed to cause bad feelings, so any response is bound to be long-winded and still not likely to produce any smiles.

    2. It was open-mindedness that led me from disinterested agnostic to intellectually-commited atheist. Disinterested agnostic came about from Sunday School.

    3. “Be open minded”

      I once asked a relative who said that to me if she was open-minded enough to consider abandoning her religion for another. “Why would I ever need to do that?” she replied. I just smiled at her. Broadly.

        1. If you really welcome all comments from anyone then you seem not to be able to discriminate between sensible and insensible, between hostile and friendly, between honest and dishonest, between foolish and wise.

          So… I feel sorry for you. It must be difficult living like that.

          1. That’s so funny!

            “I feel sorry for you” is #4 on the list! And you made it better by adding “It must be difficult living like that”!

            How odd to think that being unable to discriminate between sensible & insensible, etc, necessarily follows from welcoming all comments.

            If we were sitting at the holiday table it would be fun to take this up with you.

            Which, of course, is my point; in all of these discussions among atheists, a good number of them tell of not speaking up, and when I say I’m just fine with hearing what anyone has to say (because I’m happy to respond)*I’m* the one to feel sorry for!?

            It is not difficult to earn such respect by welcoming all comers that fewer of them come.

          2. Here’s a thought experiment for you:

            You turn up for a family gathering and hear for the 20th time very sincere people earnestly telling you that what you really need to do to understand Baal is to talk to him just a little bit every day, and that you just haven’t tried hard enough yet to know him.

            They are quite concerned for you, and all your attempts to explain to them that you really don’t think Baal exists and are met with anxiety and worry. Nothing you say can ease their mind, and the whole subject is clearly very upsetting for them no matter how tactful you try to be.

            How many more years do you “look forward” to this merry go round of the exact same questions before it just gets old and painful?

          3. Exactly.

            There are some comments that aren’t welcome. I don’t welcome racist comments. I don’t welcome mean-spirited comments. I don’t welcome stupid comments made by people who have repeated the same stupidity time and again and who have absolutely no interest in a genuine conversation. Who would seriously welcome that?

            Welcoming ALL comments (at all times) is absurd and I don’t think there actually are any people who do. It would be a case of a mind being so open that the brain fell out.

          4. Not to mention that vomiting forth religious proclamations to someone you know to share other beliefs from yours, at family gatherings when they are clearly unwanted is just rude. I don’t constantly criticize my friends for their beliefs or tell them all about my philisophical thoughts every chance I get. If they want to discuss it and we both agree, I’m happy to but evangelizing to your friends all the time is just rude.

          5. Here’s a thought experiment for you:

            You turn up for a family gathering, and because you have been willing & able to counter all nonsense thrown at you, after about the 2nd or 3rd such gathering you find fewer & fewer opportunities to demonstrate your prowess. YOU become the person to be careful around, because you have earned their grudging respect, and in the process have changed some minds.

            It doesn’t seem to occur to some atheists that openly acting as if they have the upper hand in such confrontations works! Believers have the numbers, and look at poor little isolated atheists from what they perceive to be a superior vantage point; it unnerves them to deal with someone who flips the roles, as with bullies, who don’t bother with strong types.

            Your experiment is unnecessary; if it gets to 20, you’re not doing it right.

          6. “It would be a case of a mind being so open that the brain fell out”

            GB isn’t getting the point here; this has nothing to do with being open minded, and everything to do with being more than willing to engage those who would question my position.

            I welcome ALL comments, and I RESPOND.

          7. I not missing any point. I’m about as direct and “confrontational” an atheist as you’ll find. And I push back at religious nonsense all the time. But that’s irrelevant.

            I would not welcome any and all comments. I have other interests. My guests have other interests. If we’re (to make up an example) watching a live opera performance on TV and Uncle Joe-Bob starts in on the evils of musical theatre, his comments are most certainly NOT welcome. And I am confident the same sort of thing would be true of you, too, chickkipop. (Although perhaps not with regard to opera.)

          8. You’ve rather missed the point.

            We are all well able to demolish the arguments and special pleading. That isn’t the issue.
            The issue is getting through a family gathering without managing to cause major arguments and genuinely upsetting the ones who are emotionally dependent on their belief being true. I don’t actually want to traumatise and alienate people that I genuinely care about. It doesn’t mean they are under any illusions about the fact that I am an atheist, it just means that I don’t want to beat their beliefs into pulp just because I can.

          9. Sorry. Point not missed.

            In fact, your thought experiment was about how many more years I would have to endure something before it got painful to ME.

            No problem there; not gonna happen.

            And it was about how “Nothing you say can ease their mind, and the whole subject is clearly very upsetting for them no matter how tactful you try to be.”

            Who says? See my mismeasurement point below.

            It’s about *being the cause* of arguments and upsetting others, as in your latest comment:

            “The issue is getting through a family gathering without managing to cause major arguments and genuinely upsetting the ones who are emotionally dependent on their belief being true.”

            It is very common that atheists take on the burden of being at fault. It’s as if we have no idea how to handle such a situation in a way that makes clear who the instigator is, or better, handle it in such a way that it is obvious we are not uncomfortable, and they shouldn’t be either.

            Another common mistake is the mismeasurement of how hard folks will take it if they find out about our atheism. I think much of it is the discomfort atheists themselves feel in coming out.

            I do not condescend to folks so much as to think they could not handle what I have to say.

            “I don’t actually want to traumatise and alienate people that I genuinely care about.”

            So many memes, so little time.

            This is just more burden-taking (they start it, but WE are the problem for responding!?), so much so that it misses a central point that I made earlier: when you demonstrate a cheerful willingness to take on all comers — you do it LESS, and get beyond it more quickly!

            This mismeasurement thing is really big among atheists; I can’t emphasize enough how important a role it has played in prolonging the ignorance & misunderstanding of atheists.

            Two short stories about that:

            At one of my first jobs, I was told by fellow employees to avoid upsetting the boss, who was a hardline conservative and very religious guy. Well, we got into it virtually every day on breaks; the illiberal hipsters sat nervously listening as I took him on, and guess what happened! When I eventually gave notice, my boss – after asking me to reconsider – gave me a big hug, with tears in his eyes. “We sure had fun!” he said.

            My uncle in Texas was a staunch right-winger and – of course – deeply religious. (He wouldn’t let his kids watch The Monkees because of that awful long hair!)

            When I went to visit him after not having seen him for many years, my cousins counseled me to not get too flustered if he started in with his God & Country lectures. I told them I ate people like their dad for lunch, which they loved.

            We had a great time – because I made it so – and over the years he became reluctant to get ME started! He’d occasionally toss a jab or two and I’d give the appropriate reply with a smile that said “If you want more, I’m always happy to help!”, but the vast majority of the time everything was fine.

            It’s not about beating their beliefs into a pulp because I can! It’s about responding as if I’m on the right side. It’s about putting the burden where it actually belongs and not hand-wringing about whether my fragile fellow dinner guests can take it. It’s about the very real possibility of having an influence versus a missed opportunity.

            And it’s about the very real phenomenon whereby one of the main reasons atheists have been in the closet so long … is that they have not come out of it.

            Normalize atheism. They’ll get over it.

          10. GB says “I have other interests. My guests have other interests. If we’re (to make up an example) watching a live opera performance on TV and Uncle Joe-Bob starts in on the evils of musical theatre, his comments are most certainly NOT welcome”

            Now we’re moving the posts a bit. Uncle Joe is *interrupting* a program we’re watching.

            In a discussion, I welcome any and all comments, and will respond accordingly.

          11. Thank you for acknowledging that context matters. Given that you accept that, you are not expressing anything different than the rest of us.

          12. You have to welcome them as an opportunity to counter them perhaps. Also, if you say ‘I welcome comments’ then until a comment is made you cannot know whether it is going to be wise or foolish, sensible or daft…? I would guess that to the people who say those religious things, they are coherent & sane, & logical within the context of their weltanschauung – if you will pardon my Deutsch! We know better I hope!

          14. And when you have heard the exact same comment word for word every year? You still welcome the opportunity to counter it even though you know that nothing will change from you countering it, it’s just the same pointless aggression against you that you’ve already heard before and won’t accomplish anything but dampen the possibility of civil discussion, again, this year?

          15. “And when you have heard the exact same comment word for word every year? You still welcome the opportunity to counter it even though you know that nothing will change from you countering it, it’s just the same pointless aggression against you that you’ve already heard before and won’t accomplish anything but dampen the possibility of civil discussion, again, this year?”

            Yes, I welcome it.

            Except the part about knowing nothing will change, because it does.

            And the part about it not accomplishing anything, because it does.

            I’m glad at least some of us aren’t convinced it’s all so futile. In fact we’ve seen proof that it isn’t.

            You’re not doing it right. Can I come over this holiday?

          16. Yes, I welcome it.

            Except the part about knowing nothing will change, because it does.

            And maybe Lucy won’t pull the football away from Charlie Brown this time.

          18. Your statements to date indicated a rather poor understanding of what works in real life.

            Let me put it a different way: if you had an elderly relative who wasn’t able to talk about anything other than his idea of how Richard Nixon was the victim of a Zionist conspiracy, would you actually conclude that arguing with him would be a productive use of your time that had a high degree of changing his mind? Even though you’d already heard and countered his arguments so often that you’re able to recite them in your sleep and he never once even acknowledged your counterpoints?

            There are times when arguing with someone is likely to succeed at doing something worthwhile. And there are times when it won’t do anything but get you pointlessly worked up and make you look just as bad as the person you’re arguing with.

          19. “Your statements to date indicated a rather poor understanding of what works in real life”

            Well then, point some of these statements out. I might have to reconsider whether my life is real.

            “..if you had an elderly relative who wasn’t able to talk about anything other than his idea of how Richard Nixon was the victim of a Zionist conspiracy….”

            Yikes. We’ve moved from ordinary moms,dads, aunts & uncles, sisters & brothers commenting on our atheism to loony grandpa babbling conspiracy theories, and in another comment, our favorite opera show being interrupted.

            Now, while I certainly would take him on if his opinion were supported by a good number of those at the event, this is of course nothing like what we were talking about, where it is the atheist whose view is held to be the strange one, and the atheist typically ducks the issue for fear of offending others, which is self-defeating.

          20. “Yikes. We’ve moved from…”

            chikkipop, you’re the one throwing around the absolutes… always welcoming comments and such. You’re the one having trouble recognizing the variety of social situations that exist in reality and admitting that sometimes your protocol doesn’t apply. You don’t get a “win” by waving your arms to make the hypothetical (and perhaps real) examples offered to you go way.

            In fact, at this point I’m not sure what your point is, beyond getting some kind of pleasure from saying “You’re doing it wrong. Do it my way.”

          21. So we have to decide whether I am making a good point about how atheists should handle these situations, confirmed by a lot of experience but fairly obvious to anyone who thinks about it, or whether the standard meme is the way to go.

            “You’re the one having trouble recognizing the variety of social situations that exist in reality and admitting that sometimes your protocol doesn’t apply.”

            Except that, of course, you seem to have no examples; someone interrupting a TV show or an old-timer babbling is not what this discussion was about. Perhaps you have some actual social situations that support your point?

            Here’s why I doubt that you do: because if you change the situation – as you did with your opera on TV example – you’re no longer talking about the topic here.

            You don’t get a win by suggesting my real-life experiences are hypothetical or “perhaps” real.

            And yes, I do think you’re doing it wrong. That was my point.

          22. You’re new around here, chikkipop, and don’t really understand the people with whom you are talking. I’d recommend you consider the old advice for newcomers to an internet forum… spend some time watching and reading before jumping in and lending advice. You’ve been talking as if you’ve got some brilliant new insight. You haven’t. Most of us have been at this a very long time. Your “advice” is coming across as more than a bit shallow.

          23. Of course I have some good advice, and this is shown by the very conventional approaches we’re seeing in these comments!

            My insight is in fact unusual, and I have seen this for a long time. Most people you run into complain of the same things we’re seeing here, and take the avoidance path. They don’t want to ruffle feathers, hurt someone, ruin a relationship, on & on. Try to tell them they’re a bit oversold on the negative consequences and out come the charges that you want to beat folks to a pulp with your atheist badness.

            “7 things not to say to an atheist”?

            Seriously? Say them to me any time.

            You simply don’t like having your ideas challenged, particularly when it is pointed out how they are very common, but largely false, memes.

            Who cares if I “understand the people here”!? What I understand is the very predictable things they say!

            Take your in-crowd nonsense and try it on someone else.

          24. It seems there are two things being discussed. One is dealing with attacks on atheists at family gatherings while the other is expressing atheist positions in general.

            I take this “7 Things” list as a way to explain to theists how it feels to be on the other side of their comments. Theists typically don’t understand how we perceive their words or the effect those words have on us. I think it is helpful for them to understand this. They don’t seem to understand that telling a sick atheist that they “will pray for you” or that the sick atheist is going to go to hell or deserves to be sick for their lack of belief is offensive where many of us, as non deluded humans, would never think to be so insensitive to someone going through a difficult time. They also don’t understand how continually making small remarks at family gatherings isn’t going to make us change our minds but really just exhausts us, even when we say exactly that to them. I don’t think anyone here is advocating disengagement from discussion. We just recognize how many things theists say can be rather hurtful or even bullying.

          25. “I take this “7 Things” list as a way to explain to theists how it feels to be on the other side of their comments.”

            And I take *responding to them when they actually say any of those 7 things* as a way to help them understand what they have done while they are actually doing it, on the off chance they may have missed a column somewhere online by some atheist they’ve never heard of.

            I place a little less emphasis on being offended and exhausted, and more on using the opportunity to counter their mistakes and show them a confident, informed & unapologetic atheist (which, as I have said elsewhere here, has had the effect of lessening the number of occasions for my being offended).

            “I don’t think anyone here is advocating disengagement from discussion.”

            Actually, it appears that many here do describe avoiding discussion, not coming out to their parents, etc. And this is a common view just about wherever such discussions take place.

            “We just recognize how many things theists say can be rather hurtful or even bullying”

            And I just point out how seeing them as the actors – doing the bullying and the hurting – is not as helpful as seeing ourselves as the actors, standing up to them, “flipping the roles” so the burden of the emptiness of an idea is theirs, being a good role-model for fence-sitters among the gathering, and earning respect while teaching them about those 7 things they shouldn’t be saying!

            There may indeed be people who can’t or don’t wish to stand up to bullying, or who are convinced that their loved ones cannot handle the truth, but I strongly suspect there would be fewer of them if they questioned some of the common “wisdom” about how to handle these situations.

          26. No, we’re advocating recognizing that there are, in fact, times in which it is not productive to choose to engage.

            Unless you really would rather be this guy.

          27. “No, we’re advocating recognizing that there are, in fact, times in which it is not productive to choose to engage.”

            Right. Of course. Like times when you’re at a gathering with family & friends who say those 7 things.

            Because after all, we don’t often hear what you’re advocating, do we?

            Better to write columns online for the eager & inquisitive theist to read so they’ll be reminded not to be hurtful & offensive at the next get-together.

            That’s OK; I’ll continue to advocate that folks are underselling the benefits of engaging. You can continue not to get it.

    2. chikkipop #11 wrote:

      I welcome all comments from anyone.
      I can’t imagine not wanting to hear any of the 7 listed.

      Well, I can certainly imagine not wanting to hear any of the 7 comments — but frankly I agree with you. Personally, I’d love to answer any and all of those, assuming I don’t have food in my mouth.

      I don’t get asked, though. Or seldom do. My Catholic relatives tactfully stay off the topic completely and always have. My dad was a strong proponent of various paranormal beliefs: we had a few friendly but heated ‘debates’ and he never brought it up again. It upset him so there was a truce.

      My New Agey friends generally walk on egg shells in fear that I will, sooner or later, join in to their sporadic but regular conversations on the Spiritual in a spirit of good humor, good will, and good discussion. They love diversity but hate discussion with goes judgmental. Yet they know I am always open to questions or — gosh, even challenges — but somehow they seldom knock. On purpose. Any more.

    3. Let’s take the classic “you are in my prayers” – this is usually the farewell remark I receive from my Christian sister when we part from a get together or wind down our phone conversation. She is quite familiar with my decades-long atheist anti-theist position, but yet she takes delight in contriving to have the last word in this manner – in a way she makes all encounters all about her & her judgement of others. For this is a ploy she uses on all those whose life choices she disapproves of – i.e. they don’t hold to her brand of god.

      Of course she remains blissfully unaware [it seems] of her rudeness because it is a socially accepted Christian licence to be passively aggressively judgemental, saintly & superior all rolled into one smug ball just by uttering five words.

      1. Let’s take the classic “you are in my prayers”

        Try an answer like this : “I do wish that you wouldn’t waste your time on that and spent your effort on something that you might possibly influence.”

    4. I welcome all comments from anyone.

      I can’t imagine not wanting to hear any of the 7 listed.

      I think everyone’s missing another point here. Posting such a non-elaborated-upon statement that one knows is going to be mis-read, just so one can then claim superiority for being the cleverest of all, is known as “trolling.”

      If it weren’t so trite by now, this would be the place to trot out the xkcd “superior to both” cartoon.

  12. My cousin had to have triple bypass surgery recently. This is the religious Catholic side of the family. I had to read annoying “let Jesus guide the surgeon’s hand” messages on FB. I was so annoyed – poor surgeon didn’t even get the credit for doing that actual surgery!

    1. If God could guide someone’s hand, why go to a surgeon?

      If God was skilled in all things medical, why did he get sick in the first place.

      1. Yes, my dad and I were making jokes that we didn’t need a surgeon, we’d just do the surgery ourselves & ask Jesus to guide our hands. My question is why need surgery – why not have Jesus just heal without surgery? Surgery is a big deal for a person to go through!

        I’ve seen a lot of this going on on FB lately. Another friend has an infant who is very sick (since birth) and when she had a tracheosomy, his father wrote, “Praise the Lord” when she came out of surgery? What kind of Lord makes little babies sick like that in the first place? It is hard to hold back. The only thing that stops me is decency for someone who is upset with a baby being ill. It seems the religious are actually not as kind when they force religion on the unbelievers.

        1. It’s like all the times when there’s a plane crash or other disaster and a bunch of people are killed, but people proclaim how it’s a “miracle” that one person out of hundreds lived.

          I mean, really, if a flight of 200 people had one survivor after a crash, that’s not a miracle, that’s preventing a shutout in the 9th inning.

        2. Another friend has an infant who is very sick (since birth) and when she had a tracheosomy, his father wrote, “Praise the Lord” when she came out of surgery?

          Although presumably not in that case, such language is often a mindless verbal tic. I’m sure I’ve let loose with an “Oh thank God!” on more than one occasion, with no more of a thought that there are any gods in need of thanking than that souls need to be ushered back into bodies with a suitable spell after a sneeze.

          But, for those who’re really calling on people to join them in braising cheeses….

          b&

          1. “I’ve let loose with an “Oh thank God!” on more than one occasion, with no more of a thought that there are any gods in need of thanking than that souls need to be ushered back into bodies with a suitable spell after a sneeze.”

            Indeed, my wife and I notice ourselves doing this all the time. We have a good laugh over it. I usually immediately follow it with, ” … so to speak …” and we laugh.

            Or I just deliberately say, “Thank Hoppin’ Hank” and we all laugh.

          2. If I happen to catch myself before I finish (or start) saying it, I might change it to, “thank the gods,” or the like. Or not. Because, I mean, Jesus Christ — what good is a god for if not to take its name in vain? Not like they’re worth a good goddamn for anything else.

            b&

          3. I often start to say ‘thank G*d for that’ but I usually catch myself in time and say ‘thank fuck for that’ – except that, depending on the company, I have to catch myself again and turn it into a fit of coughing…

            (My mother would say ‘Thank goodness’ but of course that’s just a euphemism from the days when ‘thank G*d’ was considered to be taking the name of the L*rd in vain. She wasn’t very religious but her father was).

    2. On a related note, there is a story that does the rounds in the UK that such patients were known as “Cabbages” until it was realised that that was not a particularly suitable acronym from “Coronary Arterial Bypass Graft”!

    3. I hate those,especially. I draw,and I hate it when people say that my talent is “a gift from God”. I can draw,but the reason I can is because I worked hard on it (or genetics,maybe),not because some magic man decided to gift me with talent. So I always end up feeling like I lost out,or didn’t do anything at all when I encounter those kinds of “compliments.”

      1. I consider it really insulting to tell someone they have a, “gift from God”. If I hear it being said to someone, I always make a point of saying something about hard work, good training, or whatever else seems appropriate at the time.

        1. Exactly, Hordes and Heather.

          Ever notice how the most “talented” people (I’m thinking musicians because I play music) are the ones who work the hardest at it, practice the most?

          As I tell my young son, anything that is special and important is going to require lots of hard work and practice and frequent failure before competence or mastery are achieved. So, expect it and work hard.

          Gift from YHWH my tuchus! I earned this skill, baby!

          1. I once heard Doc Watson, the BLIND finger-picking Bluegrass guitar virtuoso, take issue with people commenting to him about how talented (how gifted by God?) he was. He said, “I had to work AWFULLY hard to accomplish what I did.”

            This is applicable also to academic success, eh? Asians appear to have a tremendous work ethic which yields said success, a work ethic which I my (non-Asian)self did not possess at a more tender age. In my “older age” I possess a significant repository of perseverance. Would that I could go back and play the congenially-encouraging and -motivating “parent” to myself (not having had a particularly intellectual parent, who was rather inclined to direct toward me sentiments to the effect of having my nose in a book).

            It strikes me that there is a rather concerted effort among certain non-Asian Amuricuns who seem to work rather hard at stereotyping academically-outstanding Asians as not “creative” or “innovative,” as compared to these certain non-Asian Amuricuns – leave it to them to label an academic work ethic as somehow a liability.

          2. Yeah, I could have used a Tiger Mom. 😀

            Just kidding–my Mom mommed me to the best of her abilities, and I was one lucky kid.

    4. I had to read annoying “let Jesus guide the surgeon’s hand” messages on FB. I was so annoyed – poor surgeon didn’t even get the credit for doing that actual surgery!

      Bloody hell! Cardiac surgery by an apprentice (failed) carpenter!
      Actually “bloody hell” is both an expostulation and a safe prediction.
      Are anaesthetics allowed?

      1. Damn! Where were you when I was contemplating a smart assed remark? I’m going to keep that one for later though. My other cousin called up my dad after the surgery & said, “Well, I guess we didn’t need Jesus after all!” LOL! All the males on that side of the family seem to be less religious – you wouldn’t hear the females say that. I guess that is in line with the lousy stats about female atheists.

      2. I wonder, back in the old sailing-ship days, how much impromptu surgery was in fact carried out by ships carpenters… seeing as how they were the guys in possession of saws and chisels and stuff…

        1. Due respect to chippies, but there’s a fair bit of anatomy involved in hacking a leg off in 2 minutes flat. You’ve got to start off by cutting the skin in a non-obvious shape, to provide an intact flap for stitching on the back of the amputated stump. Then you need to know where the arteries are going to be so that you can tie them off after exposure and before cutting them (otherwise your patient bleeds out on the table). Then you need to find the tendons to cut through if you’re going to avoid the trauma of sawing the bones.
          I’ve probably forgotten more anatomy than the average man on the Clapham omnibus – it goes with having had to study palaeontology – and I’ve be very hesitant about planning a field amputation.

    5. Surgeon: “Not to worry, Jesus is guiding my hand. WHOOPSIE! Jesus, I’ve told you not to have so much coffee!”

  13. “Come on now, you do believe in God, you just think you don’t”

    – said by my father every year
    – variants from my sisters every 2-3 years

  15. Long-time non-believer; but not “out” openly to my family. (Some of them probably know; and I would own it if asked directly.)

    Mainly not out due to work reasons and for my Mom (who would have totally unnecessary pain over it.)

    The up-side is that no one rattles on about religion in our family anyway and never did.

    On top of that, I enjoyed — and still enjoy — the ritual around Christmas, especially the religious music (I would never miss Frosty, Rudolf, Drummer Boy, Reindeer, Sleighs, and the rest of that gang). Not because I believe any of it; but because of a deep sense of nostalgia from (a very happy) childhood. I’m honestly amazed that these rituals can still evoke these emotions, despite the fact that I don’t believe any of it. Ritual is a powerful thing for human psyches.

      3. I generally enjoy Christmas carols, but Drummer Boy I can’t stand.
        It just drones on and on and on and on, and it is the worst sort of humble-brag I have ever come across:

        I am so humble
        and so poor
        You have to feel sorry for me because I am so humble and so poor
        Pay attention to me, let me tell you again how humble and poor I am
        Talentless too, because all I can do is hit this damn drum again and again and again at regular intervals.
        But don’t for get the humble. Oh, and I may have not yet mentioned it, but I am also poor.
        If we had the Humble Sweepstakes, I would come firs- I mean last.
        But in spite of my being so humble, and poor and I am still beating this drum monotonously, God rewarded me with a special smile.
        Because, humble.

        2. Never really gave much thought to Drummer Boy one way or the other, but those are all very valid points.

          My least favorite Christmas carol was the rather drab dreary and drawn-out “Oh Holy Night” until I realized it sounds vastly better in the original French. I’m still not quite sure why.

          4. Love O Holy Night/Minuit Chrétien. I like most traditional Xmas carols, but hate most pop ones, the ones you hear in stores…I believe I heard that even Dylan made an Xmas album:-(

          5. I actually have that Dylan album. Why? I couldn’t tell you. You can have it if you come pick it up.

          10. Luciano’s and Kathleen Battle’s versions of traditional Xmas carols are the best I’ve come across. I seem to have them on cassette and play them every Xmas. Sure they’ll wear out soon.

            A friend just sent me a video of some kids singing Dona Nobis Pacem as a round. Exquisite. Not sure it’s specifically Xmas, but what could be better than Give us Peace? I’ll see if I can find the link.

          12. That is very moving. And I agree, you can’t argue with that message.

            As for your cassette tapes, you might want to look into music in digital form. We have storage devices for such things now. Pretty cool technology. 😉

          13. Yeah, as Aidan might say, I have a metric shitload of CDs as well, but somehow the collection of Xmas music I taped in the 70s is what I tend to reach for, and since my cassette player is still functional ( unlike my VCRs)…

          14. “Love O Holy Night/Minuit Chrétien. I like most traditional Xmas carols, but hate most pop ones..”

            I couldn’t agree more!

            I remember one last-minute-shopping night when the mall was full-to-bursting with aggro levels through the roof. Everyone was looking daggers at each other, and the sound system was blasting, “Have a Holly, Jolly, Christmas…”

          15. LOL! I generally avoid malls, and won’t go near one after about mid-November.

            Have you read/heard David Sedaris’ hiLARious adventures as a Santa’s elf???

          18. I hate malls in general and am usually none too thrilled with the traffic that the Holiday Season brings about in the vicinity of malls. WalMart is even worse and put a WalMart next to a mall, forget it. What amazes me is that so many people still do their holiday shopping this way. I order my stuff mostly through Amazon. Quick searching, no lines, it comes to your door and most of the time for free.

        3. I actually like Drummer Boy. I think it’s the droning. I could have something wrong with me but many of the other Xmas songs just irritate me & Drummer Boy doesn’t.

          2. I quite like it too, even as I appreciate Grania’s satire.

            But I take GBJames’s point (I think), there are some Xmas songs that get repeated ad nauseam.

            My particular hates (and I’m sure I’ll recall more when I hear ’em) are
            Jose Feliciano’s ‘Feliz Navidad’ – what a dirge (I used to quite like Feliciano till I heard that)
            White Christmas (it’d be tolerable if it wasn’t so damn ubiquitous)
            I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus – talk about tacky bad taste

            That’ll do

          8. Thanks to Quantum Mechanics, we know there’s really only one cat that merely appears to exist at disparate points in time and space. Therefore, all cats are great ancient Egyptian kittehs!

            …and, alas, all cats are also in the IKEA ad….

            b&

          13. “What’s a holiday without tacky bad taste?”

            I was trying to buy Christmas cards for the family today and I nearly gave up, my tacky-ometer was well into the red. Just the sheer concentration of schmaltz or schlock or kitsch or one of those words that sounds like a cross between a sneeze and a gargle** almost sent me fleeing out of the store. Truly.

            But then I was looking for a card that was both sentimental and tasteful, which is probably an oxymoron.

            (** Not knocking those words, I think they sound marvellously expressive of what they describe).

          14. Yes, I don’t really like most Xmas songs. It’s because I’ve heard them so much now that I’m middle aged. They were fine & dandy for the first 10 years of my life & then they got old. I avoid malls from the beginning of December until the New Year so I minimize my exposure. I feel sorry for the people who have to work in places that blast those songs ad nauseam.

          15. You must live in one of those evil Communist countries where the War on Christmas has nearly killed the Baby Jesus.

            Mid-October, Home Depot already had its fake Christmas trees all lined up at the front of the store, blasting away Drek in the Halls! And I wouldn’t at all be surprised to see after-Christmas sales lasting until late January, when the Valentine’s Day sales begin.

            b&

          16. Ha ha – yeah the war on Xmas is something that seeps up here from the US. Why can’t better prices seep up here instead of bad ideas?

            One horrible thing I read was that a kitty ate some tree someone bought off a lot and died. Apparently there was antifreeze on it which is deadly for animals. How sad! I don’t bother with a tree – it’s a hassle & my dog would just pull all the decorations off or try to make sticks out of it — I’m glad I didn’t get one now!

          17. Who the fuck would put antifreeze on a tree? The tree’s not going to appreciate it any more than the cat. Nor are the kids of an age to put anything and everything in their mouths.

            Anyway, I haven’t done the tree thing since…well, probably since before I left home for college. And, by now, cutting down a tree to appreciate its beauty just doesn’t sit well with me…though an awful lot of our forests here are overgrown and in desperate need of thinning lest they burn completely — wouldn’t mind so much if those were the trees that wound up in living rooms.

            Anyway, when I finally get the garden going, I’m going to have one or two pomegranate trees in front of my (street-facing) bedroom window. I’ll string those up with lights wintertimes. And who could turn down a Christmas pomegranate?

            b&

          18. I know how weird re: antifreeze! It was really sad too as the kitty had just been adopted. So stupid!

            A Xmas pomegranate is perfect since it’s a fertility symbol. You could probably have an Easter pomegranate too!

            Speaking of pomegranates, I had some food with them in it as a key ingredient and laughed at the French on the box – grenade. I guess they do look like grenades! Now every time I think of pomegranates, I think, “grenade”.

          19. That’s where the drink grenadine comes from, but grenade by itself sounds pretty funny. The Royal Hand Grenade?

          20. I had no clue about the French etymology — nor the fertility symbology. Offer one to a suitable female companion as a promise of an explosively good time? Wonder what message it’ll send to have the tree outside my bedroom window….

            b&

          21. It would be like when Riker tricked Picard into carrying that symbolic item on his trip to the sex planet.

            Yeah, I think persephone ate some pomegranate while in the underworld. Rooky mistake; never eat anything in the underworld. IIRC you see the pomegranate iconography used throughout the Ancient Greek world.

          24. Yes Feliz Navidad is WAY overplayed. Also didn’t much like his version of Light My Fire. Feliciano had some OK songs before that…

      4. I’m inclined to deem “Do You Hear What I Hear” its equivalent.

        (Some years ago I sang in a group which performed a medley of the two. Obviously I survived.)

    2. Joseph Campbell comes to mind. He extolled the value and importance of ritual in cultures through the ages. He hoped, I think, that we could come up with a substitute for religious ritual to deepen social cohesion. He tells of his deep sense of contentedness when viewing the funeral of JFK. The ritual of the gun carriage, the riderless horse, etc. evoked thoughts of Lincoln, and the best of American heritage. Others despise and reject ritual because it reminds them of their early experience in the church where ritual prevailed alongside superstition and dogma.

      1. I think it is possible to turn ritual into a fetish. Joe Campbell’s attitude toward it (and Karen Armstrong’s) is a form of “belief in belief”.

        I’ve no problem with innocent ritual. But allowing “we always do this” to override other considerations is a bad thing. Believers who insist on saying prayers at mealtime when some of the participants are non-believers is an example.

    3. I agree with you about the nostalgia. My house is fully lit, the halls are decked and we got a new artificial tree this year that actually looks real.

      I have to join the others in dissenting on Drummer Boy though.

      The closest I’ve come to owning up to my nonbelief with my family is when my father went on a rant a couple years ago about Hawking and Dawkins claiming God is not necessary. I simply asked him why he thinks God is necessary and through it a question about whether he sits outside our plane of existence somewhere in the multiverse. The conversation came abruptly to an end. Otherwise, I just try to change the subject and find the brandy bottle (as noted in my post below).

      1. Yes on change the subject … and moving right along, hey there! The bottle stands before you!

        I am fortunate in getting very little religious prattle from anyone in my family. I’m 99% certain my younger brother and his wife and atheists (we’ve come >< this close to stating it outright (in private)) but I think my older brother (not his wife) still believes at some level.

        I have watched the secularization of the US in microcosm within my own family.

        My Dad was hard-over religious (though he/we/they didn't go to a conservative church until long after I had left home). My Mom is; but much less forcefully than my (late) Dad was. As noted, 2/3 of they progeny are atheist and 100% of the following generation: my kids, nieces and nephews.

    5. On top of that, I enjoyed — and still enjoy — the ritual around Christmas, especially the religious music

      I’m having a “tiny, wafeeer-thin mint” sensation.
      Absolutely hated the entire charade since I was about 10.

  16. Regarding prayer, I heard Dawkins say something along the lines of, “Mumbling meaningless nonsense doesn’t really bother me.” I agree that this part of the holidays is the least of my concerns.

    As for my family dynamic, Jerry suggesting that I retreat into the corner with wine and talk to my d*g isn’t a bad idea. Only problem is, wine’s not enough. At some point I have to break out the brandy.

    My parents are devoutly Catholic, my father a Deacon and my Mom perhaps even a step over him on the dogma scale. My wife’s family, while theists, generally can’t stand the church and I’ve never seen any of them so much as mumble a prayer for a family gathering, or otherwise. That in itself makes for a “fun” time when the two sides clash.

    I recently found out that my mother has asked mutual acquaintances to pray that my wife and I will return to Church. She’s not concerned about things such as, oh, I don’t know, whether I’m kind and compassionate or in good health or whether my kids are being raised to be well adjusted; rather, her most pressing concern is whether I return to attending Church. Maybe if I do that I can disown gay family members the way she does.

    Ah, the holidays. You’ve gotta love ’em. The only thing that could add to this mix is to have some out and out theological debates this Christmas season. I’ll prepare to have the holy fecal water thrown at me. Now, to go stock up on brandy…

    1. Jerry would never suggest that you talk to a d*g, he would regard that as rude. 🙂
      That was me.

      1. Woops, I should pay more attention to bylines on these posts. I apologize to you, and to PCC for such an insult (may he have mercy on my soul). I’ll still talk to my d*g though. 😉

    2. My parents are devoutly Catholic,
      [snip}
      Maybe if I do that I can disown gay family members the way she does.

      I think that the solution to your issues is staring you in the face. And you probably know it.

      1. Oh yes, I have a whole slew of them ranging from Cold War style standoffs to the nuclear option.

        As you mentioned in your other post about when visits occur, my solution is often to avoid visits on the damn Holy Days altogether. In fact, this year, I invited some of my family to visit after Christmas. This plays nicely with what I’ll charitably call their frugality and wish to avoid trips during the more expensive times to travel.

  17. My peeve is when someone who is describing something they believe is wrong adds in “atheistic” to make it seem worse. If I don’t agree with their position, pointing out that atheism has nothing to do with the subject seems like a red herring, but it’s even worse when I agree with them, but the claim of atheism is false (e.g., Nazis).

  18. The best defense is a good offense. I’ve only done this once but when a religious person tries to convince me to be ‘open minded’ I sincerely try to convert them to atheism

  19. I want to broaden the discussion a bit (or just bitch, maybe 🙂 ).

    I continue to be amazed that every (every) pop artist ends up feeling the need to release the dreaded (and almost always dreadful) Christmas album!

    Even Rod Stewart and Bob Dylan couldn’t resist the urge and released dire offerings (and I like both of them a lot, but to conform to the cliche: Their early stuff. 🙂 )

    I know the reason — they sell! As Frank Zappa entitled one of his albums, We’re only in it for the money!

    But, really, it just embarrassing — almost always.

    2. To quote a Liberian official, “yes, we know it’s Christmas.” (And for the parts of Africa that aren’t Christian – why should they know?)

      1. Having spent Xmas 2004 in the Islamic Republic of Mauritania, I can confirm that they do know it’s Christmas – they just don’t care.

  20. The REAL craw-sticker for me is, “What happened to you?” As if I HAD to have been knocked off the only sane “default position” of believing in the Catholic God.

    Because CLEARLY the only reason someone would consider not believing, and leaving that wonderful club, is because they were traumatized by some one or some thing, and of course, if that some one or some thing were a Catholic… well, “They don’t represent the TRUE church.”

    But the reality is, responding “I thought about it.” is enough.

    1. I have a ready answer for that one; because I was carefully observing it as it happened:

      1. Education
      2. Traveling around the world meeting all different kinds of people
      3. Experience

      Those made me an atheist; but not one who clearly held that thought in mind: “I’m an atheist” and the attending: “Because all the stuff of religion is nonsense”.

      What brought me over that line, clearly, and forever was reading Dawkins’ The God Delusion because it crystallized what I had been thinking for years. (I’ve read it 3 or 4 times now.) TGD was the first of the Gnu Atheist books I read, and still my favorite.

      And then Sam Harris, Dan Dennett, Carl Sagan (The Varieties of Scientific Experience), Bertrand Russell piled on and cemented the ideas even more firmly.

      And that sent me out to investigate religion (re-reading the texts from most of the major religions, reading religious apologists, which I had read during college out of interest) and I found absolutely nothing that seriously challenged my conclusions.

        1. And that, dear readers, is why it’s so damned good we have Sam on our side. Notwithstanding all the things I myself am not at all hesitant to criticize him for.

          b&

          2. Yes it is a very powerful argument and I’ve used versions of it to question my religious friends. I’ve even personalized it to ask what they thought of me, burning in hell for eternity because I’m an atheist even though I’m a good person, I try to be kind, I give to charity just like a religious person does but just for my conclusion that based on lack of evidence, there is no God, I will suffer for all eternity.

            It is effective. It gets them thinking and you can notice them wince and compartmentalize their feelings.

        2. That was, apparently, Sam refuting William Lane Craig. Which is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel. No disrespect to Sam, but I guess there would be far more reasonable (and hence harder to destroy) versions of Xtianity out there.

          One of the other ‘see also’ links Youtube popped up for me was this one
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5gm9hoTw6Y
          of the famous debate over Life of Brian between John Cleese & Michael Palin vs Muggeridge & the Bishop of somewhere-or-other at their most offensive. First time I’ve seen that much of the debate. Mug and The Bish are really doing their best to be patronising, derogatory and obnoxious, so Cleese and Palin definitely win if only for not losing their cool.
          (The clip plus part 2 takes 20 minutes to watch).

          3. the famous debate over Life of Brian between John Cleese & Michael Palin vs Muggeridge & the Bishop of somewhere-or-other at their most offensive

            I remember seeing it live. (Well, of course, there weren’t options that anyone I knew could afford for a decade or so.)
            Palin and Cleese sticking boots to Muggy and episcopal teeth without leaving their chairs.
            Bishop of Southwark, IIRC. But who ever really cares if the sacrificial lamb is a Cheviot, Herdswick or Whiteface? (Apart from the lamb? Who really wants it to be one of the others.)

    2. When asked what happened to me, my reply is either “I read the Bible” or I have the following conversation:
      “When you were young, did you believe in Santa?” …
      “do you still believe in Santa?” ….
      “why not?”….
      “well there you have your answer”.

  21. It never ceases to bewilder me how, in many places, it’s not only socially acceptable but almost de rigeur to allude to atheists as being without morals. Religious people will say that coyly, right to my face — even ones who regularly behave far more immorally than I ever have. The only response I’ve found that feels right is to embrace the nonsense when they least expect it — “Sorry, can’t make it; I’ve got an infant burning to attend. Maybe next time?”

    1. It seems to me that exclusive view of morality starts very early in life for many. Parents, whether strongly religious or not, feel compelled to find a church when the kids are small and without resistance, to help instill good behavior. They are doubtless struggling with behavior problems common to children and are seeking outside aid. The church knows and encourages this fear that the kids will turn into bank robbers and worse. They respond by drilling behavioral limitations (often arbitrary) into the helpless young who grow up thinking, but for that strict upbringing, they might very well have become bank robbers and worse. Thus, the cycle is complete when they themselves beget a litter of tiny abject sinners.

    2. It never ceases to bewilder me how, in many places

      That seems to only be an issue in America. Even in up-country Tanzania, tens of miles from a metalled road, people were reasonably used to dealing with people from other religions.

  22. What are your least favorite utterances from family gatherings?

    I avoid family gatherings because of the religious nuttery. Not that anyone hassles me about it, but it’s just that there is such a huge gulf between my view of the world and theirs that it’s tough to make conversation.

    1. I can’t imagine avoiding such things.

      It’s no wonder we’re so misunderstood; we don’t stand up for ourselves. Or at least we haven’t until fairly recently.

      If the gulf is huge, some of us have played a part in that. The meme that it’s useless trying to get through to the nutters is *false*, as all my years of taking them on has demonstrated. It often seems the real problem is people’s unwillingness to ruffle feathers.

      I always look forward to such gatherings.

      1. “It’s no wonder we’re so misunderstood; we don’t stand up for ourselves. Or at least we haven’t until fairly recently.”

        Er, I don’t know anyone more assertive regarding an atheist point of view than I am. But there’s a limit at what can be said when you’re a guest in someone’s home. Most people really don’t want to go there anyway.

        1. It’s just not polite to insult someone’s views in their own home, so I don’t, although there are a lot of religious people who think that convention doesn’t apply to them.

          And you can change people’s minds by talking about it, although my approach is more to sow seeds to get them thinking. People have to work it out for themselves, but you can help the process along. I wouldn’t claim any deconversions (well, one maybe), but there are people i know I’ve influenced, even if it’s just to recognize that atheists are “normal”.

          The recent Pew poll that showed how hated atheists are in America showed a huge gap – 21 points – between the opinion of those who actually knew an atheist and those who didn’t. So “coming out”, if you can, makes a difference.

        2. “there’s a limit at what can be said when you’re a guest in someone’s home.

          And Heather adds “It’s just not polite to insult someone’s views in their own home, so I don’t”

          “Most people really don’t want to go there anyway.”

          Wait! The whole idea was that people said things to atheists at these gatherings! This means they “went there”!

          I have no problem discussing my views no matter where I am; if it is polite for the host to question me or comment ignorantly about my views, it’s polite for me to answer.

      2. I can’t imagine avoiding such things.

        How so? I mean, you grew up, you put away childish things, you went to college or university, then you continued to grow your own life. Sure, go back to see the family when it’s convenient. But why struggle to get there on a particular day of the year.
        Even for people who still live within a hundred to so miles of the home town, the New Year feast is tomorrow (21st) because travelling is such a total pain in the arse at this time of year.
        I think the wife and I have made it down to 2 (or is it 3?) of the New Year parties in the decade we’ve been married. Several times we’ve been a couple of months early (or late) but that’s not a big deal. It’s not as if we’re 5 and a couple of months is a long time.

        1. “But why struggle to get there on a particular day of the year.”

          Your question is in response to this bit from my comment: “I can’t imagine avoiding such things.”

          Very clearly, I was referring to avoidance of such events “because of the religious nuttery” mentioned in the previous comment. I can’t imagine avoiding an event which would offer an opportunity to get together with friends & family for such a silly reason.

          As for the “particular day of the year”, 2 things: because I was invited, and because it may be the only occasion in which a number of people you might like to see will make the trip. It’s why they are called “special occasions”.

          1. it may be the only occasion in which a number of people you might like to see will make the trip. It’s why they are called “special occasions”

            Almost never happens. and TBH, we haven’t even tried for decades. Some people want a winter holiday ; some have work (we have one helicopter between now and Newton’s Birthday, and only three between now and New Year) ; some have invites from friends. Once you get beyond 3 or 4 people/ groups, getting together across the several countries involved becomes practically impossible.
            And we don’t even have the god-squad factor to contend with.

  24. In the holiday spirit, my ten year old is being called atheist-boy by another kid at his elementary school. I do not think the kid means that much harm by saying it and there are quite a few self proclaimed atheists in the class, so the phrase does not have the dispiriting effect the boy would have hoped.

    Interestingly, being called as an atheist, is sort of like being called reverend. Though I can see how the circumstances would be different if, for example, someone called my son Jew-boy if he were Jewish.

    1. We have carefully instructed my son on the nature of the religious nuttery that he is surrounded by (we have had him read several kids’ books of comparative religions and spoken to him about the local swamps very carefully).

      He knows when to duck a subject and move away.

      We instructed him to reply, if any kid (or adult!) asks about his religion that, “we read the Bible together at home.” We have done so exactly once. It’s not a lie. So far, he hasn’t had to us that. He just changes the subject.

      I do plan to read him parts of the Bible to instruct him in what’s actually in it (some very beautiful and occasionally wise passages, some horrific ones, and loads of bollocks). I know the Bible far better than almost any believer I have ever met.

      One day, a teacher asked something like: How did whales come about? And my son’s best friend chimes in “God made them!” My son didn’t say anything; but it really stuck in his craw (which was gratifying to me).

      1. We instructed him to reply, if any kid (or adult!) asks about his religion that, “we read the Bible together at home.”

        Seriously? I was taught to say “we’re freethinkers.” Or “we don’t have a religion.”

        Why mislead anyone? You can also tell your son he’s allowed to say “I don’t like to talk about religion” and then not talk about it. Duck and move away without deliberately feeding into the belief that he’s a Christian and that if he’s not he needs to blend in.

        Of course, if you live in an area where atheist lives are at stake this is different … but iirc you’re in Wisconsin.

        1. Ah, I would love to do that; but I don’t want my son to become a pariah at school. It’s not worth it. At that’s pretty much what would happen.

          You can also tell your son he’s allowed to say “I don’t like to talk about religion” and then not talk about it. Duck and move away

          Indeed, that’s the No. 1 tactic and it’s worked 100% of the time so far.

          Minnesota, in fact, but it’s waaaay more religious than most people realize. He would become a pariah, for sure. His best friend is very goddy.

          There’s plenty of time to cross that bridge (later).

          1. It must be terrible living in a theocracy such as you tolerate. Can’t you get an exit visa?

          2. Those who aren’t parents probably haven’t had to think about protecting their kids from religious bullies and ostracism; it’s also sometimes necessary to avoid prejudicing the teachers as well.

      2. No bibles in my home. Another immensely gratifying situation with my kids is that when people ask them specific details about Christianity, they have no clue. Like:

        “Isn’t that a pretty manger?”
        My kid says: “What’s a manger? Is it that barn-thingy?”

        2. Yeah, but. I want him to know about … well, more or less everything.

          And understanding the people he will interact with for the rest of his life is important. We have taught him about Xianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Shinto, etc. And pointed out in each case how without foundation these beliefs are.

          But I want him to know the perspective his colleagues are coming from (nearly all are Xian, Muslim, or Hindu, about 85+% Xian in this neck of the woods).

          And I want him to have a ready answer, that is not a lie, to deflect the nonsense imposed on him by others.

          1. Yeah but – a manger is (as I understand it) a sort of feeding-trough for animals. Doubtless derived from the French ‘manger’, but obsolete. Why should anyone in modern society (unless they’re on a farm) need to know what a manger was, any more than a mizzenmast or an awl or indeed frankincense or any other bit of obsolete terminology.

            Fine, if he has some special interest in old methods of livestock, but otherwise there are better (more interesting, more important) things to know.

          2. Hey! Awls are very commonly used still. I’ve got a couple in my basement tool shop. And lots of folk sail still. They know what a mizzenmast is! These are not obsolete tech.

            Not that I would store my awls away in the manger.

          3. Yeah, even I know awl about awls, and a manger wouldn’t be worst place to put them away ( as long as there’s not already a dawg in it…)

          4. Possibly not obsolete, but certainly (these days) a little esoteric and not as ubiquitous as they were.

            I (for example) know what an ‘injector’ is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injector
            (an incredibly sophisticated thermodynamic device, by the way, and highly counter-intuitive)
            or what water troughs (US: track troughs) are – but I wouldn’t expect the general populace these days to know of them.

          7. *rolls eyes* (Anyone know how to do that emoticon on WP?)

            Just for the future–try not to use the phrase “to eat” in the context of someone’s pet goats.

            😀

            (Betcha can’t pun in Chinese.)

    2. There was a peculiar religious fellow in my Ancient Greek classes. I thought he looked like Rasputin & I always imagined him heading up some weird church of his own imagining. You often got theology students in the Ancient Greek class, which was a strange experience for so many of us because we were all such atheists.

      To myself, I always called him Rasputin but later some classmates told me they used to call him “God Boy”.

  25. Fortunately, none of the family get-together holiday meals ever included anything religious. No praying or anything else. I could only advise, if you have family that would need to ask many of those 7 questions, you might want to consider going some place else. It’s not likely the rest of the conversation is going to get much better.

  26. I think my family – whose beliefs seem at best nebulous – knows I’m an atheist, maybe the nieces and nephews don’t. I can’t recall a single time when someone’s talked about Jesus during Christmas time. Christmas time is about food, drink, movies, video games, and meeting up with friends.

    Politics come up occasionally – I’m probably the only person on the left in the family, and we’ve learned to avoid those conversations. Although thanks to the pomo and authoritarian left we now have some common ground.

    1. Yes, my Christmas and other family gatherings are very similar all the way around (including the politics).

      You right-leaning relatives are doing well to avoid the urge to shove their opinions down your throat, which seems to be a common attribute of conservatives: We have the right answers and your damned well going to listen to them.

      1. They’re not that far right fortunately. Dad’s a former Marine and policeman, so he’s a hardass, but not crazy. More a fiscal conservative, socially liberal type.

        I have a libertarian uncle, who I don’t get to see too much. He’s a smart guy, and we do talk about politics and social issues, but we try to keep it funny and never insult each other.

        I do have an evangelical friend (former friend, really) who is far, far right and has said stuff to me like “if there’s no god, what’s keeping you from killing people?” – which I find hilarious since it says more about his morality than mine.

  27. I’ve been told by my uncle
    “but you’re so smart. I don’t understand how you can believe there’s no god”

  30. At the age of ~25 I was once asked if I believe in god to which I responded no. Her response was “oh, you will when you get older” and then she turned her head away…. Not wanting to spoil the birthday party with my angry comments (stuff like this infuriates me and I simply can’t keep calm) I went for a loooong walk with the dog.

    1. Pro-tips:

      Before the holding of hands commences, visibly stick your fingers in your mouth.

      Alternative strategy: stick your fingers in your mashed potatoes or similar side-dish. Again, make sure everyone sees this.

      Now that’s awkward!

  33. My immediate family all identify as agnostic, and the extended Christian family mostly leave us alone for a variety of reasons which include my Mormon cousins/aunt/uncle have us through some loophole, other aunts/uncles/cousins don’t know, or they consider it a lost cause. or we don’t use the word “atheist”- we call ourselves “agnostic”.

    I am reminded of the line in Julia Sweeney’s “Letting Go of God” when her mother says to her, “Well, honey, I can understand not believing in God, but…an atheist!!!”

    What exactly is the extra baggage with this word? What sense does it mean to say “I can understand being attracted to women, but…a lesbian!!”

    My Presbyterian minister uncle and my father argue religion now and then but the uncle rarely or never makes any of the weird comments of the kind discussed here.

  34. My least favorite thing to hear at gatherings is some variation of “you’re closed minded” followed quickly by some variation of “you’re a fanatic for wanting to respond to that.” The hit-and-run.

    1. ““you’re a fanatic for wanting to respond to that.” ”

      The worst part is when you get that charge from fellow atheists who have swallowed the meme that we are the problem if we should be so bold as to let folks know who we are, while not being particularly apologetic about it.

    2. Oh, that is the most frustrating. Because you want to defend yourself against misrepresentation, you’re met with admonitions to “calm down”. It’s perfectly acceptable for them to make their baseless accusations, but if you so much as open your mouth to address it, you’re “ranting and raving”.

      Yep, I’ve been there.

          2. Strident glance, hell. Dude’s still gonna be strident long after he’s dead and buried. Now that’s some serious stridency!

            It’s our not-so-secret superpower, our stridency, it seems….

            b&

          8. Alas, The Hitch has demonstrated that even that’s not a broad enough response!

            I think we need to go with something along the lines of, “conceptually imaginable within the same spacetime continuum.”

            b&

  35. My parents know that I’m not particularly religious, but I have studiously avoided them finding out that I’m actually an atheist. This is strictly for their own psychological well-being…they wouldn’t disown me or anything, but I don’t want them spending the rest of their lives thinking that they failed as parents and that their son is going to Hell.

    2. Why do you assume they’d spend the rest of their lives feeling they’d failed? What if you made them reconsider? What if you didn’t, but they got over it and accepted that you disagreed but were honest about it?

      I can’t imagine not telling my parents who I was.

      1. Similarly, I can’t imagine not having told my parents who I was. They’re both dead and it would be sad to have lived a lie with them.

        That said, I’m in no position to tell other people how to deal with this question. Everyone’s situation is a little different and while I think the world would be a far better place if atheists were all out of the closet, it’s easy for me to say. I don’t need to live the consequences others might face whatever they might be (usually less than feared, by most accounts).

        1. I have one parent remaining, the other having died when I was age four.

          Over time, I’ve bitten my tongue many times in the surviving parent’s presence, all for the sake of Keeping The Peace with a parent who has felt entitled to say anything to anybody anytime she feels so inclined.

          If one chooses to not bite ones tongue at an earlier age (20’s?) then one has a good chunk of ones life affected by the alienating consequences of ones looser tongue, no matter how justified ones position is, and is faced with the prospective farcical fatuity of a death bed “making amends.”

          If one disciplines oneself to hold ones tongue, then one must resolve to continue to hold ones tongue during a parent’s older age, so that the parent’s older age is not characterized by a profound disagreement with the parent’s offspring.

          It’s a no-win situation for the offspring.

          I guess I figure that it’s worth it. She conceived and bore me. My father had to somehow get sufficiently interested in her. It’s a wonder I’m around – I’m grateful to somehow be around – to be able to indulge in the conceit of griping about it, eh?

          1. “affected by the alienating consequences of ones looser tongue,”

            And these are the only consequences you’re sure of? Sorry, but you’re overlooking the possibility that making yourself known at an early age might not be as alienating as you think.

            Sounds to me like Keeping The Peace is your choice, but why? Your parent “who has felt entitled to say anything to anybody anytime she feels so inclined” doesn’t seem to care about that.

            It’s not a no-win situation and you don’t owe her your silence about who you are.

          4. I can empathize with you. I don’t live near my family and I’m always walking the line between being an asshole and asserting my opinion since most of our gatherings are on holidays. Who wants to add even more stress to a family get together my having blunt religious discussions? The fact that my mother has the passive aggressive guilt inducing religious propaganda rehearsed to perfection still doesn’t make me feel comfortable returning the favor to her. Maybe I’m the idiot here; for some reason with family, I filter myself much more than with friends or acquaintances. With them I’ll bluntly discuss any topic at hand, including religion, but in the case of family, I’m much more indirect.

          5. You’re not an idiot. Family situations are always more loaded than friendships. The risks are higher. It would be simple if religious folk didn’t have a history of extreme reaction, including the practice of shunning apostate family members. So sometimes the stakes are high.

            And often the stakes aren’t as high as they appear. Usually even deeply religious folk manage to grow up a bit and allow common humanity and family bonds to prevail.

            But not always. Which is why none of us is in a position to be telling the rest of us “You’re doing it wrong”. Much better to listen to each other’s experiences and respect each other’s personal judgement.

          9. @chikkipop
            “I think people are turning against me.”

            I wonder why. Arrogance, perchance?

            For some reason I keep confusing chikkipop with Robert. The viewpoint is different but the volume and tone are very similar.

          10. Separated at birth? Evidence that religion isn’t heritable but some personality traits may be.

          11. I agree, clearly I’m not the only one here in such a situation with my closest family members. Of course, “you’re doing it wrong” argument from chikkipop implies knowledge of the “it” that is trying to be accomplished.

            As you point out, family dynamics are more loaded and I have some fairly demonstrative evidence to on here. My grandfather, who was a fascinating man and an atheist at least from the time he watched hundreds of his friends and comrades get killed in the South Pacific, had a very tense relationship with my parents. He passed away a decade ago and I only got to see him a handful of times in my life. While I was too young to fully grasp what was going on in my childhood, it became quite clear as my family made me sit through endless rounds of rosaries for his salvation why there was so much tension. It became more clear at his death when there was nary a mention of the man he was, and instead only dismay that he’s roasting. I have little reason to suspect that the reaction when be different with the generational arrow pointing the other way.

            The fact that avoiding these subjects keeps the family gatherings for the most part peaceful in my view is good; this doesn’t preclude the dismissal of absurd comments that are made from time to time, but if my goal is family war, then yes, I am doing it wrong. With regard to the topic of this post, I’m glad I’ve never heard any of those 7 things Herb Silverman writes about (nor would I want to), and if I did, it’s quite likely the dynamic would change drastically.

        2. “usually less than feared, by most accounts”

          Yes. This is what I’m saying.

          I’m encouraging everyone to consider a better way of approaching confrontations, AND a better assessment of the outcome of their honesty.

          I AM in a position to do that.

          1. You’re not in a position to assume you have any more authority on the subject than the rest of us.

          2. You are not in any position to be deciding what authority I have; insofar as you’ve seen a small bit of it demonstrated here and do not wish to admit it, your credibility is low.

            I say though, whippersnapper; you do provide some laughs.

          4. “This is our club, and we get to say who’s allowed in” does not equal having actual authority on a subject.

            Reread my comments and make whatever call you wish, instead of actually refuting them in any thoughtful way, but your in-group power tripping has no effect; continue to spout nonsense and I’ll continue to respond, until you take your toys and lock yourself inside.

          5. Do the phrases “confirmation bias” and “availability heuristic” mean anything to you?

            What you think has worked for you won’t necessarily work for others, either practically or emotionally.

            /@

          6. Gosh; damn sure hadn’t thought of that stuff! Daggumb them anecdotes!

            “won’t necessarily work”

            The necessity of something is of less concern than its likelihood. And yet, notwithstanding this point may be sound, it should be stressed that it isn’t necessarily true, though I would add that much the same could be found applicable to this supplementary observation, albeit not incontrovertibly.

            “either practically or emotionally.”

            Oh no; practical & emotional considerations?

            Damn stumbling blocks; they’re everywhere.

          7. Re likelihood, perhaps you should consider the statistical significance of the data points that you ostensibly do have before you start advising others how they should behave, hmm? Unless you really *want* to foster an air of pomposity.

            /@

          11. I must have missed it the first time.

            Troll, as in someone who disagrees with the flock, the merits of his argument having not been addressed in anything but the most surprisingly ordinary way.

            The herd mentality is so often found where you shouldn’t expect it.

            Human nature, I guess.

            Troll.

            Fascinating.

          16. “This must be a new meaning of the word “argument” that I wasn’t previously aware of.”

            Not to mention, “merits.”

          21. Chikkipop, the reason people are labeling you a troll is because you persist in trying to shove your solution to a delicate family issue down the throats of all other commenters (who have different family situations from yourself).

            That’s bad manners. I suggest you stop it.

            I think that’s clear enough.

            Do you expect people to concede that, yes, you are intellectually, morally, and socially superior to the rest of us and that we will directly apply your personal solution in our own lives?

            I suggest you turn that around and see how it would seem to you as a receiver of such a message.

            Cheers,

          22. “you persist in trying to shove your solution to a delicate family issue down the throats of all other commenters (who have different family situations from yourself).”

            No; there is nothing whatsoever wrong with suggesting to others what they should do. This is just one example of the conventional thinking I referred to in other comments.

            “That’s bad manners. I suggest you stop it.”

            No, it is not. And I won’t.

            “Do you expect people to concede that, yes, you are intellectually, morally, and socially superior to the rest of us and that we will directly apply your personal solution in our own lives?”

            This is yet another (ready for it?) highly conventional response I’m finding here. Theists always say it to us. “So you think you have all the answers? We’re just idiots? You’re better than us?”

            And it is not a “personal solution” (another very conventional notion, like when theists say their belief is a “private matter”). When I have an opinion about something I have it because I think it applies to people in general.

            This in no way suggests there are no situations where it may not apply. What I do say is that solutions to problems exist which are overlooked or poorly understood. Or as Josh Billings said, “As scarce as knowledge is, the supply is greater than the demand.”

            And no matter how much we may like to think of ourselves as individualists, our nature & socialization instills in us a fear of being offensive or disliked.

            “I suggest you turn that around and see how it would seem to you as a receiver of such a message.”

            I’ve long since had to deal with such an ordinary suggestion. For example, conventional thinking has it that proselytizing is this awful thing, but I welcome it, just as I welcome family or friends telling me what I should believe.

            Sorry; I’m unconventional, and it’s better.

            Many solutions to problems are counterintuitive; religion seems easier to shed than outmoded conventions about personal interactions, as shown here. Much of what we are socialized to think goes unquestioned, so unwilling are we to be disliked.

            At a swearing in of fifty juror candidates, will you be the one among them who answers “No!” to the “so help-you-god” question, or will you just go along to get along?

            Would you speak up in your school when the god subject came up, and debate the entire class including the teacher?

            Some will do this. Many more won’t, but there is nothing wrong with telling people that they should.

            Cheers,

          23. @ chikkipop

            Suggesting to others what they *might* do is one thing, but insisting that you alone know what they *should* do is quite another. It *is* rude, and all the more so when several commenters have objected to it.

            Such boorish behaviour isn’t explicitly against Da Roolz, but dominating a thread, as you’re doing, is. (I think you’re lucky that Prof. Ceiling Cat is away.)

            /@

          24. First, I’m not “dominating” a thread. I’m responding to others who have taken issue with what I said. I would not be commenting now, for instance, but for your silly scolding.

            It would be quite another thing if I continued to make comments that no one was replying to. (I would still be making good points, but if the silence was deafening as it often is when creationists don’t want to hear you, it wouldn’t be worth the effort after one or two well-placed comments.)

            If you can point to where I’ve ever said I “alone” know something I’ll buy you dinner. It may be the case that on this blog, I alone seem to be taking an unpopular position, but based upon the replies I haven’t been given cause to reassess, and I’m sure there are many folks who believe as I do that speaking out with friends & family is worth the effort, no matter the feathers temporarily ruffled.

            Might or should, it’s a distinction without a difference, and is not rude, and by all means the number who say so doesn’t make it true.

            I don’t care who is here or not; if such a person feels the need to discipline the bad guy I am just fine with it, though I would hope they agreed with me. (I did get one “Frankly, I agree with you”, though! Not bad, considering.)

            Now, you *should* go out and get some sun! You’re looking a little pasty.

          25. “Sir, thank you for your inspection and instruction, Sir!”, as I recall from my first week at Navy Officer Candidate School.

            Just congenially curious: should you yourself have similarly acquiesced and subordinated yourself to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, would the military have been theoretically at least one domain of life which would have given you pause, however slight, in contemplating an “unconventional” response to military discipline/authority?

          27. And still you continue to expatiate.

            While you criticise us for behaving like creationists, you continue to behave like a homeopathist, offering no evidence for the efficacy of your approach other than you own experience: “It worked for me; so it will work for you!”

            No one here, iirc, has denied that you found your approach effective, or that others might (and, yes, there are likely more than one who would agree with you); our point is that there’s no basis for a claim that it will work for all. And it’s very well for you to *suggest* that we should (and, in fact, that has a very different connotation than “might”) nonetheless try it when it’s not you that will have to live with the consequences.

            Priceless.

            /@

          28. “offering no evidence for the efficacy of your approach other than you own experience”

            Though there is in fact evidence that standing up for oneself and exhibiting confidence earns respect, I don’t need to offer evidence. In fact, even if I hadn’t had the experiences myself, it would not be difficult to figure out that my approach has a good chance of working (which is what I did in the first place). How silly to think you need evidence, as though sound reasoning doesn’t tell you anything.

            “our point is that there’s no basis for a claim that it will work for all”

            I said people should do what I did; if that’s a claim that it will work for all, so be it. The important point is that it would work for far more people than are considering it, and that the reason many don’t consider it is due to rather conventional thinking about not ruffling feathers, and unwarranted assumptions about the consequences.

            “it’s not you that will have to live with the consequences.”

            It must just be awful living with such dire possibilities; I could never do such a thing.

            “And still you continue to expatiate.”

            Now that’s priceless.

          29. Still more blather.

            How silly to think you need evidence, as though sound reasoning doesn’t tell you anything.

            Reasoning without evidence is pointless. At some point you have to connect with reality.

            And the fact of the matter is that for some people who *have* followed the course you suggest the consequences have been very much worse that mere “ruffled feathers”.

            /@

          30. I might survive if I jump off the Empire State Building. I should jump off the Empire State building. This is not a distinction without a difference.

            The thing is, I actually agree with you that for a significant portion of the population, being blunt may be effective in sharing views with family members. This simply cannot be translated to individual cases, for there are plenty of examples where such discussions have resulted in misery. I myself frequently weigh whether such misery is an acceptable outcome. But to say that someone “should” act in a certain way when referring to a specific case is simply unwarranted. All we’re asking you for is evidence that your stance of unrelenting confrontation is beneficial for all. Believe me, I’d be happy if my family dropped theism tomorrow, but I’m not so confident as to think that having frank conversation with them is guaranteed to have such an effect. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that this is not always the case. See my previous post with regard to my grandfather.

          31. “I might survive if I jump off the Empire State Building. I should jump off the Empire State building. This is not a distinction without a difference.”

            This is not even slightly relevant. Telling others they should do what you have done in an ordinary social situation should not provoke in someone the desire to examine the exact wording used. Time might be better spent – no; time *would* be better spent – actually discussing the merits of my points about speaking up to parents, relatives or friends in such a way as to earn their respect, be a role model to timid bystanders, and *reduce* future conflict.

            Someone might point out, for example, how they tried it and it was a disaster, their parents no longer speak to them, etc.

            “unrelenting confrontation”

            Yikes; to see you describe it, it would appear I’m going out looking for heads to bite off, rather than *responding* appropriately to imposition of religious views by others in a social situation. Sorry, but they are the ones in the wrong, and there is a way to handle it which entails neither remaining silent nor forfeiting all future relationship with the offender.

            “I’d be happy if my family dropped theism tomorrow, but I’m not so confident as to think that having frank conversation with them is guaranteed to have such an effect.”

            Discussions do wander. My original point was about how you can earn respect, reduce conflict, and still be known for what you believe; it was not primarily about changing the minds of others, although the outspoken atheist does have a better chance than the one who stays quiet.

            As for your grandfather, you said it was a tense situation with your parents, but you don’t say how he handled it. My cousins had a tense situation with their god-fearing John Birch Society member of a father, but when I was a guest at their house I enjoyed taking him on; he couldn’t get me upset, and whatever he said he got a response.

            He died estranged from his kids, who never confronted him; they left home at early ages to get away from him. I got along with him fine to the end, and never once backed down. (You could argue I didn’t have to live with him, but neither did they for the entirety of their adult lives.)

            As I’ve said from the beginning, I don’t think people go about it the right way. The fault does not all lie with those who impose.

          32. I don’t need to tell you how my grandfather handled it. It has become clear in this thread that nothing I or anyone else says about how individual situations should be handled would change your view of how they should be handled. Even if I said multiple people in my family have been completely rejected, I’m sure you, chikkipop, would have the superior insight to tell me how we’re still doing it wrong. Out of respect for Da Roolz, this conversation is over.

      2. Because I know my parents. Whether or not they would feel like failures as parents, they would certainly think that I would be spending eternity in Hell. I am open about my lakc of religiosity to pretty much everyone except my close family. Since there is effectively no overlap between my family and the rest of my social circle, keeping up this facade has caused me no problems. Letting it down would cause significant problems for members of my family, and I see no upside to doing so.

        1. “Because I know my parents.”

          Had a girlfriend back in the day, and she knew her parents too. We were living in sin, and they had disowned her.

          Eventually I coaxed her into inviting them out to our place. I remember her mom seeing how nice it was and saying “I’m speechless!”

          Seems when these parents actually confront the reality of who their kids are, it’s not as bad as either parent or child imagines.

          “I see no upside to doing so.”

          Guess there isn’t any, if you don’t value your own parents knowing who you really are.

          1. Nope, my Mom knows exactly who I am. She just doesn’t know my metaphysics. So what?

            The fact that I reject her religion is really not a big deal to me. Just as I don’t listen to Rap “Music”, I don’t adhere to her stories. To me those are pretty comparable. It’s really a big nothing to me; and I don’t care whether she knows it or not.

            Now, it may be important to you that your parents know about your metaphysics. Fine.

            So, for me, the cost benefit analysis says, very clearly: Remain silent.

            Telling her has no value for me.
            Her happiness has great value to me.
            Her knowing would strongly detract from her happiness.

            This makes this an easy decision.

            Your mileage may vary.

          2. “Nope, my Mom knows exactly who I am. She just doesn’t know my metaphysics. So what?”

            So she doesn’t know your view on a very important topic, which has far-reaching consequences in our culture, impacting everything from whether or not a person can run for political office to whether certain science research is funded, whether a person is ostracized in a classroom or workplace, how the environment should be dealt with, what textbooks are published, how evolution is accepted, and the list goes on..

            A TV or radio program comes on, or a newspaper item is talked about, and you can’t take your own side. You remain silent while some Fox News host goes on about the tides going in and out and your mother claps enthusiastically.

            What a missed opportunity.

            I’d be sad if I hadn’t been able to talk about all that while being direct about a key underlying outlook that helped me shape my views.

            “The fact that I reject her religion is really not a big deal to me. Just as I don’t listen to Rap “Music”, I don’t adhere to her stories. To me those are pretty comparable. It’s really a big nothing to me; and I don’t care whether she knows it or not.”

            No big deal, right? Yikes; if everyone thought that way atheism would still be almost entirely in the closet and misunderstood. We’d all just be huddling around little blog fires warming ourselves, unknown to the outside world.

            Just like rap music. Yeah!

            “Now, it may be important to you that your parents know about your metaphysics. Fine.”

            Nope; I’m saying it’s important for *everyone* that we be open, when at all possible. It’s how good ideas are spread, and how ignorance of them is overcome.

            “So, for me, the cost benefit analysis says, very clearly: Remain silent.”

            I’m saying I doubt your analysis, since it is of the very conventional type that is frequently found wanting. This does not mean, however, that a closer examination of your circumstances might tell me otherwise.

            “Telling her has no value for me.”

            I tend to think when someone cannot tell a person they love an ordinary thing such as what they believe, then the values of knowing one another honestly & fully, of having challenging discussions, and of realizing that people can have differences while remaining close are sacrificed.

            “Your mileage may vary.”

            But more importantly, yours may be mismeasured.

            I continue to be fascinated at the way atheists – who rightly refuse to be apologetic or to back down in discussion with theists who are offended at intrusions upon their personal beliefs – demand apologies from me for being so bold as to suggest that there is likely a better way of approaching something.

            How dare I question their “personal” stance!

          4. Yup.

            Creationists hate those wordy replies.

            It’s easy to spout nonsense, or to ridicule with snappy one-liners. Actually explaining what you mean is another story.

      3. My Mom would have a lot of pain if I told her. And for what reason? Do you tell your Mom everything you do? She doesn’t need to know. The fact is that it’s been the case for several decades and it doesn’t affect our relationship. She’s good at looking the other way, ignoring the signs.

        If I told her, she’d be forced to deal with it and have a lot of pain from it. And what would be gained? Nothing in my opinion.

        1. “My Mom would have a lot of pain if I told her.”

          At least, you *think* she would. And even if she initially did, as so often happens for example when people come out to their parents as gay, they get past it and come to appreciate the honesty, and it forces them to confront their own prejudices.

          “And for what reason?”

          So your mother will know who you really are. So there is honesty in your relationship rather than avoidance which will be regretted later.

          “Do you tell your Mom everything you do?”

          Of course. Why wouldn’t I?

          “She doesn’t need to know.”

          If you don’t value your parents knowing what you really feel about life, maybe not, but I can’t imagine being anything less than straight-forward & honest with parents. In any good relationship there are things we like and things we don’t like about one another, but the last thing I’d want to do is keep an important conviction from anyone I was close to.

          “The fact is that it’s been the case for several decades and it doesn’t affect our relationship. She’s good at looking the other way, ignoring the signs.”

          I wouldn’t want to live a life where some of, if not the most important people in it had to “look the other way” about who I was.

          “If I told her, she’d be forced to deal with it and have a lot of pain from it. And what would be gained?”

          And upon being “forced” to deal with it, she’d probably realize, as so many others have, that it wasn’t as bad as she thought. As I’ve said in other comments here – met with surprisingly conventional pushback – the fear of bad outcomes is not as justified as you might think. From everything I’ve observed, the person afraid to come out has at least as much of a problem with it as the parent, for example being overly concerned with disappointing them.

          A friend of mine went through a religious wedding ceremony to please his parents, and has always regretted it; years later his younger brother came out as gay and after the initial shock, they got over it.

          Yes, there are those who react badly, but unless you’re dealing with extreme fundamentalist parents I doubt it would be what you expect.

          There is plenty to be gained from having an honest relationship with important people in our lives. It is no surprise that so many who have come out have said they felt much better after doing so.

          I mentioned the pushback on this site (with some actually calling me a troll!); it is fascinating that intelligent people, who gather to comment on science/atheism/skepticism issues and who should well know the value of being “openly secular”, as the latest phrase puts it, have such ordinary & downright conservative notions about how it is to be dealt with among family & friends.

  36. My wife had a family member ask her “How can I be happy in Heaven if you aren’t there?” It was hard to stop laughing. Even now I recall it with a chuckle.

    1. There’s always Thomas Aquinas’ comforting words to reassure them: “That the saints may enjoy their beatitude more thoroughly, and give more abundant thanks for it to God, a perfect sight of the punishment of the
damned is granted them.”

  37. Family I have no trouble with (though my sister’s husband’s family are Catholic – with the recent wedding we haven’t maybe run into anything yet. Won’t be seeing them this year though). Friends of my parents or (sometimes) coworkers (as when I worked with a priest at CMU (!)). He asked “so, what was the relationship with your parents like?” when I explained I was an unbeliever. He later met my mother so maybe he was disabused of that idea!

  38. I’m experiencing quite a culture shock, reading this. In my family even the devoutest members don’t proselytise. But I’m living in Europe, that might explain something.

    But as for the grace, there are secular variants of least favourite sayings, of course.

    Mine would be something not said to me, but to my 12 year (!) old cousin, by his mother right before they were driving home, in front of all the relatives:

    “Go use the toilet before we leave, because we won’t stop for you if you don’t.”

    1. That gave me an idea – for those who come into your home & try to force everyone to say grace, volunteer to say it & just say that you’re framing it as good advice:

      “Always wash your hands after you poop – the germ theory of disease is real!”

  39. After the death (cancer() of a dear, devoutly Christian friend, with whom I had a good-natured disagreement over the existence of God, I said that I was doubly saddened by his death. Someone asked me why I said that, so I told them, if I was right about the afterlife, then I would never see him again, and if he was right, I’d never see him again, either.

  41. Never had that sort of problem. Got a mix of believers and non-believers in the family, though the topic seldom comes up. People often joke about religion/atheism here, particularly with regard to the one part of the family which came from a Muslim background but no longer believes. Though admittedly I’d be a little more concerned bringing it up with my father’s side of the family. Though I’m pretty sure he’s an atheist (I can’t recall him ever doing anything religious) his sisters are very religious and come from a particularly religious sub-group of the country.

  42. My mostly Catholic (with varying degrees of adherence) family and I have a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy about religion and atheism. They know not to get in my face about religion and I refrain from laughing or rolling my eyes too much.

  43. My parents have said that I’m going through a phase. They are pretty liberal Christians, but they were still rather heart-broken when I told them I was an atheist. And, they likely still don’t know what being an atheist actually means, even though I’ve told them several times.

  44. Equally annoying– though not related to the holidays– was after the birth of my son the holy rollers in my family tried to give god the credit for his safe delivery. It sure would have been nice if he would have been paying attention in the middle ages; when infant mortality rates were abysmal.

    On some level I think it’s a passive aggressive way to make a moment about yourself; since it is MY god, after all, that delivered you this little “miracle” or whatever the reason for celebration might be.

  46. The great thing about the Harris clip is that he’s talking right past WLC and to mainstream Christianity. It didn’t serve him well as far as scoring debate points (I watched the whole 2 hour debate as well) and it’s questionable as to whether he won the debate at all. However, Sam was speaking to the beliefs that are all too common across multiple denominations of Christianity. Hardly any Christians I know would advocate for the ridiculous ramblings Craig puts forth. He justifies genocide for fuck’s sake. You can’t get much more batshit crazy than that.

  47. The only thing worse than enduring useless religious ritual is being put publicly on the spot to perform it. My best friend’s wife insists on asking me to say a blessing at their family gatherings. She knows I’m an avowed apostate, but she does it regardless. Or did, anyway. After the first dozen times of me saying “no thank you” politely, I took them aside and asked them not to embarrass me in that way. My friend was apologetic, she was quiet. The very next meal, she asked me to pray and I recited the following limerick:

    A wonderful bird is the pelican;
    His beak can hold more than his belican.
    He can hold in his beak
    Enough food for a week,
    Though I’m damned if I know how the helican!

    There was some quiet snickering among the family, but we moved on with the meal. Later she made a veiled comment about my unsuitable irreverence and I assured her I would soon get to the “Nantucket” series of limericks.
    They have since left me in peace at mealtimes, which is just how I like it.

      1. I get no credit other than reciting the work of Dixon Lanier Merritt. Here’s one for the scientists~

        There was a young lady named Bright
        who traveled much faster than light.
        She set out one day
        in a relative way,
        and came back the previous night.
        —Anonymous

        1. I’ve know the pelican one since I was a kid, but brilliant of you to recite it as a grace:-). Like the science one, too.

          While I was belting out Stille Nacht, Heilige Nacht earlier (accompanying Luciano), I pointed out to my bf that he should feel “blessed” that my dear departed mother was in Doggy Heaven, and no longer able to belt it out equally badly with me. I did feel the need to phone one of my brothers in California to share in the misery of my voice.

        2. “What is a limerick?” asked Brother,
          “It is a type of rhyme,” said Mother,
          “Where lines one and two
          Rhyme with five when it’s through,
          And three and four rhyme with each other.”

          3. There once was a diner at Crewe
            Who found a dead bug in her stew,
            Said the waiter, “Don’t shout
            And wave it about
            Or the rest will be wanting one too!”

    2. Good for you, you got balls!

      I’ve often longed to break into a preferred version of When Shepherds Watch Their Flocks by Night:

      “When shepherds wash their socks by night,
      All seated ’round the tub,
      A case of Guinea Gold soap came down,
      And they began to scrub!”
      (courtesy of an old relative)

  48. Hannibal Buress has a great bit about people who say “I’ll keep you in my thoughts.”

    No, I’ve heard some of the bullshit you think and I don’t want to be in there with that. If you want to do something for me, make me a sandwich…”

    Check it out, it’s hilarious.

  49. “I want to wish everyone a really, really merry Christmas, happy Hanukkah, all the holidays. All you infidel atheists out there, I want to wish you the very best also. I don’t know what you celebrate during the holiday season, I myself celebrate the birth of Christ, but it’s your choice, and I respect your choice.”

    This wasn’t said at a family gathering (actually said by the leader of our political opposition party last year), but it is a good thing not to say to an athiest…

    http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/seasons-greetings—-even-to-infidel-atheists-pallister-234034381.html

    1. I think he made an honest faux pas and had good intentions. I tweeted him thanking him for including atheists and told him that we are fine with being called, “atheists”.

      1. If he had stopped after “I want to wish you the very best also” I would agree, but when he went on to say “I don’t know what you celebrate” it was clearly not a faux pas – it was a judgement.

        2. I dunno. I think he honestly didn’t get that you could be atheist & have Xmas because Xmas to him was only religious.

    3. “I don’t know what you celebrate during the holiday season…”

      Personally, I celebrate the birthday of the world’s greatest scientist – Sir Isaac Newton, 25 December 1642.

        1. Rolls off the tongue much easier than Newtonforcedividedbyacceleration. Or Newtonkineticenergydoubledtimesvelocitysquared, for that matter.

          b&

    4. We toasted the return of the sun on Sunday (the solstice).

      As George Carlin once said, if I have to chooser to worship anything, it would be the sun.

  50. My least favorite comment from Christians at Christmas (or anytime for that matter) is this implicit Pascal’s Wager:

    “If we Christians are right YOU’LL be sorry, while if you’re right none of us will ever know or care.”
    _ _ _ _ _ _ _

    My counter-reply is that I do not know how to believe — truly BELIEVE — JUST to PLAY SAFE; and even if I DID know how to believe — truly BELIEVE — JUST to PLAY SAFE, I do not think that would fool a genuine Almighty God.

  51. I had a fundamentalist neighbor, who, after my (ex) wife had told I was an atheist, asked if I would mind if she prayed for me. I said “I don’t care what you do on your own time.”

  53. My parents don’t understand my POV of why I am an atheist. They don’t even listen to my challenges on why their belief in Catholicism is so certain and waiting for them to admit that they don’t know. But no my dad calls me “spiritually immature” and a “child” (he never admits it, but he seems to take the “holier than art thou” tone). He doesn’t care about the contradictions of the Bible and the horrible stuff God did such as condone slavery, flood the world for 40 days, stone homosexuals, and sending his own son to get killed as some imprint of love. He says “We can’t judge” and said that they’re were probably doing something right…My own father said this! He also called me “arrogant” for saying he thinks I’m better than God (if the latter was a real person yes) and that God is God and that he can do whatever the hell he wants. No questions. No doubt. Just that blind certainty and special pleading. Plus he said I was at the “wrong spiritual starting point.” I asked him why my disbelief was wrong. He just said “He didn’t know.”

    He also goes on the notorious bandwagon that “All cultures have a belief in gods/God therefore atheism is wrong and unnatural.” Is it unnatural for me to question my beliefs, put them toward atheists to challenge (I was a Catholic homeboy back then), reevaluate them, try to justify clinging on to them, and then gradually accepted that a life without belief in a god is actually fine, one not proven by empirical evidence? That’s called the human spirit at its primal of asking questions, not saying ridiculous things out of certainty without evidence. The pinnacles of science. Then he goes on the tangent that no one can live his/her life for science. He does have a point (it’s NOT a belief, but he does not acknowledge that), but then he says it can’t explain love, music, art etc. so therefore there is a God. He partially does have a point. We can’t explain the human experience solely on a scientific POV, but that’s because with the things that happen in our own personal experience we GIVE it meaning and it makes sense in a human way. Scientists do understand and express HUMAN emotions, some love to draw, some love to compose poetry and music etc. Atheists do the same thing even though he doesn’t acknowledge that. He’s an agnostic in the sense that he doesn’t know “who’s burning in hell”, but he’s certain that there is one and that atheists along with the immoral people cache will be shown “God’s mercy” bit by bit and ultimately convert them into “the love of God and Jesus Christ.” Talk about being SO callous, biased, and thoughtless! And he ended that he pitied me being so “misled” by the Internet (even though I told him EVERYTHING about my journey!) He also said that belief in God is a thing of heart (faith) and that he willed away the true definition I pointed out that faith is absolute truth without being questioned and said plainly that I was ignorant of the Catechism (funny because I’ve read their entire dogma and I found a lot of crap that he wouldn’t acknowledge). In faith, he said he couldn’t bring logic to support his belief. That’s funny because if you’re saying science and faith are compatible yet you still arrogantly believe your God and Christianity is true plus call atheism “unnatural” (in an attempt to sound like a smartass theologian), why do you insist on DEBATING anyway?!

    1. Continuation of recount

      And what’s worse was my mom interrupting everything I said to my dad by yelling he that I was going to hell, that I was nothing without God/and them (latter part I can agree), that I was being brainwashed by the laptop I have been typing right now, etc. I should have told him to take her out of the room, but he probably wouldn’t agree. He needs his jeering wife as a spectator to scream out her “abomination” of a son. Even as I recount contradictions they’ve made in their statements, they just blank out and say, “What are you talking about,” “We never said that,” or “He’s saying things again.” My own parents weren’t even willing to face me and answer my questions. Just the emotional appeals, fear tactics, and statements from ignorance from my own parents. How shameful is that? In the end, I stood my ground and they thought I was delusional (ironic coming from two people who claim to know the existence and works of the Judeo-Christian God).

      Why is it so difficult for them to accept that I am different plus that I’ve changed not to some pitiful outcast? They hate me for what I NOT stand for and are angry that their own son has better points than them. I never said they’re stupid for believing in the Church and they can do whatever they want. But the totalitarian acts that I’ve done for “love” confirms what the Church wants its members to be: unquestioning, irrational, ignorant, and gullible sheep who carry out their wishes even to throw their money and children for their sake. Imagine Wal-Mart if it had gone to that position. I don’t partially blame them for they were raised in Catholic households. I blame the Church for dividing my family and making them hate me. The RCC lied about my life all this time and destroyed my former life. My “faith” was just my dad’s faith all alone, thinking he’ll make a perfect Catholic family in the eyes of his peers. I’ll never forgive the Church for their deception, arrogance, and greed and the flatterers that make up the clergy.
      The RCC confirm their “true” Christian nature by Matthew 10:34-35.

      Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35″For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW

      Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to get this diary entry last August out in the open for discussion.

      1. Wow, I feel for you. Sounds horrible.

        Did you tell them you are an atheist?
        If so, why?
        If so, do you regret doing so?

        Cheers, and I hope your holidays are peaceful.

        1. Yes they’ve seem to notice I wasn’t participating in Mass because well I didn’t believe it in anymore. I remember coming out when I was 16 years old and I was angry at them, but then I got shut down. After a few years of happy indoctrination, I began to read beyond the “trollish” comments of atheists and understood the reasons why they felt their faiths and chose a life of objectivity. Then I realized I didn’t need the belief of a suoernatural deity to make me feel guilty of living four years later. I got sick of the usual propagandizing bullshit coming out of the priest’s pulpit and stopped going entirely because on Sunday evenings, I could get school work done since I am a university student. I was sick of lying for them just to be a “good obedient Catholic boy.” Now at 20 years, I’m ready to make my own decisions. Do I have regrets? One. I should have left the Church years ago and be enlightened on why I left it. But I have no regret coming out as an agnostic atheist. It was the most liberating moment of my life and I would gladly do it again if I reset my life.

          2. That’s really rough and unfortunately not uncommon. Some parents go so far as to cut off their children’s education when they come out as atheist to them; I hope that hasn’t happened to you.

      2. You sound like a young person going through a tough transition in life. I’m sorry for your turmoil. But, I hope it is a comfort to know many are in your same situation, and many on this forum testify to the same past upheaval. Your family seems unalterably set in their way. My guess is you will have to just face that fact and try to adjust temporarily to the situation. I suspect you are living at home and dependent in some ways on your family. If so, I’d suggest you make the best of the situation, even if it means laying low as much as possible until you are ready to become economically independent. File this under: for what it’s worth to you.

      3. Your parents sound not all that different from mine. I cannot count the number of times I’ve heard my dad say, “As Catholics, we believe…”

        Now, a large majority of Catholics thankfully reject a great deal of the nonsense the Church spews, but for the significant percentage that adhere closely to Church teachings, this is the beginning and end of the argument. Catholics are bound to listen to Rome and there’s really no point in carrying on a conversation if this is someone’s epistemological stance. That’s why, as I’ve said elsewhere, my personal solution is to change the subject whenever possible. It is a very dicey situation when you’re still financially dependent and it sounds as if discussions are not very productive. I wish you luck, hopefully there are still other areas of common interest that make gatherings more enjoyable.

Comments are closed.