I don’t hold out any hope that, on the Palestinian side, Hamas can play a meaningful role in solving the eternal Israel/Palestine dilemma. Given that their charter calls for the wiping out of Israel, and cites the forged and anti-Semitic Protocols of the Elders of Zion, they don’t exactly look like great peace partners.
I looked instead to Mahmoud Abbas and his Fatah Party, which are supposed to be more moderate. And indeed they are, but “moderation” is relative. When four rabbis and a policeman were slaughtered by terrorists in a synagogue in East Jerusalem last week, much of Gaza erupted in joy. There were sickening scenes of Gazans celebrating those murders and handing out sweets. Here are two photos. The first shows Palestinians celebrating the two murderers (themselves killed) and wielding axes:
The second shows the obligatory handing out of sweets. I’m not sure whether the woman with four fingers up is making two “victory” signs or the number four—for the four dead rabbis.
But that was in Gaza, where Hamas holds sway. What was more depressing were apparently pro-terrorist cartoons posted on the Fatah Facebook page. One is below: it drips with the same vile anti-Semitism that recalls the Nazi organ Der Stürmer (note that the car is painted with the colors of the Palestinian flag, and the driver is wearing the patterned keffiyeh). This kind of stuff is daily fare in the Palestinian media:
These scenes of hatred and public celebration of murder should disgust any decent person. Where is Fatah, then, in all this? I was slightly heartened when Abass issued a condemnation of the murders, even though it seemed a bit hedged, manages to pin some blame on Israel, and was embroidered with a political message. Here’s his statement (Abbas is still hanging on as President of Palestine):
The president always condemns killings of civilians from any party whatsoever, and condemns the killing of worshipers today in one of the houses of worship in West Jerusalem, and also denounces all violent acts no matter what their source is, and demands an end to the ongoing incursions into the Al-Aqsa Mosque and the provocative acts by Israeli settlers as well as incitement by some Israeli ministers.
The presidency also confirms that it is time to end the occupation and end the causes of tension and violence, affirming our commitment to a just-based solution on the basis of a two-state solution, in accordance with the resolutions of international legitimacy, and maintain an atmosphere of calm and understandings that have been made with King Abdullah II and Foreign Minister American John Kerry in Amman.
His original statement in Arabic is here.
Well, that’s better than nothing, I suppose, but it would have been nice to see a simple condemnation. But even those words now ring hollow, as Najat Abu-Balr, a Fatah spokesperson and Palestinian legislator, reveals that Abbas didn’t really mean it. Here’s a report on her statement (the Arabic original, from the Palestinian news agency Al-Quds, is here if you can read that language):
The Palestine National Liberation Organization, Fatah, has justified Palestinian President Mahmud Abbas’s statements in which he condemned the operation in Jerusalem yesterday.The organization considered these statements to be political diplomacy, according to a statement by Najat Abu-Bakr, deputy for Fatah in the Palestinian Legislative Council [PLC].
Abu-Bakr expressed her belief that President Abbas’s behaviour under such conditions is the height of diplomacy because he is required to make statements like everyone else. He is responsible for the entire Palestinian people. She pointed out that the public diplomatic front does not accept bloody statements, but ones that are extremely balanced and well-thought out.
In an interview with Al-Quds radio today, Wednesday [19 November], Abu-Bakr said: “The Palestinian president is forced to speak this way before the world. These statements are responsible for the plight of the Palestinian people.” She noted that the objective behind these statements is to light up all the diplomatic signs for the world to wake up to the importance of the Palestinian cause, which the settlers have encroached on through their practices against the Palestinians.
This implies that Abbas really would have made a “bloody statement” if he could say what was in his heart, and that even his hedged condemnation was feigned. Rarely do we see a politician “clarifying” the words of someone in her party in such a horrible way. I see no hope to any resolution of this conflict.
..living a life in a “dead end street, what are we living for?” Ray Davies The Kinks.
“All violence is an attempt to achieve justice.” – James Gilligan, M.D., Violence: Reflections on a National Epidemic
It doesn’t matter how misperceived the alleged injustice is. There will always be people who’ll react violently. The most dangerous person in the world is a male between the ages of 18 and 40. Add religion, culture, fear, helplessness, etc., and you’ve got the makings of a disaster. And, no, I don’t know of any answers.
“The most dangerous person in the world is a male between the ages of 18 and 40.”
Ferguson, MO is seemingly the U.S.’s latest back-yard, home-ground manifestation of this.
Is there a testosterone correlation (if not causation) here?
Could it be that there are way too many misbegotten males on this planet?
I sometimes wonder how the female portion can possibly manage to tolerate the male portion.
We do so by rolling our eyes behind the men’s backs so that the women in front of them can see and know that “we’re here for you, sister.” 🙂
Don’t get me started…
😉
That sounds pretty close to misandry to me. Yes, all of us males make women’s eyes roll, and they wonder how they can stand us.
Thanks.
Only to the hyper testosterone ones you mentioned. You asked how we could stand it and that we my cheeky reply. Did you miss the winky?
“Only to the hyper testosterone ones you mentioned”
The only hyper testosterone ones mentioned, were
“… a male between the ages of 18 and 40.”
That’s still a lot of males, and, eye rolling and, maybe, misandry.
Jesus I was just making a joke to another joke and no one really was saying all men are bad or it certainly wasn’t the intention.
I’ve worked so closely with so many men and have so many male friends, I find the company of women strangely alien sometimes, even to the point of not being able to relate to them.
But, if you want to get serious, yes I have given glances to the few women in the room in my male dominated work places when I’ve been yelled or talked over the top of by an alpha male in a meeting, but when they’ve gotten angry at me for not being subservient, called me into a room so we are alone and proceeded to lose all control as they’ve flown into a rage to the point where I thought they would hit me, I never, ever, not once went to HR because I didn’t want to make a fuss and risk being ostracized.
So yeah, I do roll my eyes at those type of males. And that is how I cope with them.
Been there, done that.
Okay, okay, I get that you didn’t mean “all men.” I apologize if I mistook what you meant.
Oki doke. I’ll apologise for being to serious too.
And if I made a misogynist comment it would be OK as long as I added a smiley emoticon after it?
I read it as a throw-away,light-hearted, well played, generalisation. Other customer’s experiences may vary.
By the way, am I the only one who read the title and was eagerly awaiting some tuneful ditties from Anna, Agnetha, Benny and Bjorn? Selected carefully by our obliging host.
Thank you BOB!!
For Christ’s sakes, anyone who didn’t read it that way needs to go back and reread. A little badinage between two WEIT regulars has been blown so far out of proportion the whole member gestalt here’s being ruined.
For what it’s worth, that’s how I took it, too…didn’t want to step into the thick of it, but maybe should have….
b&
At least I’m in good company with Sam Harris.
Won’t be on this site for a while. I have more important things to think about and you should also consider context and perspective.
NO FLOUNCING!
I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to start a kerfluffle.
The whole culture would have to change before any real progress could be made. It seems clear to me based on videos celebrating the teaching of hatred toward the Jews and the miserable reactions to tragic acts of violence like this, that this hatred is well embedded in the culture and therefore, while it isn’t impossible to change it, it sure will take a long time and a lot of effort to do so.
I realize this will probably not be posted, but have to send it anyhow. I’ve zero defense of the celebration of violence upon innocents, but truly I don’t understand why there does not seem to be much empathy here for uneducated, poverty stricken, and a continually victimized population? I am not sure I would act much differently if I had lost my children and family to violence visited by the vastly superior forces of the Israeli government. I mean, the last attack caused 1 to 2K deaths of civilians, while Israel lost mostly soldiers, about 70, I think.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing
Uneducated, poverty stricken, victimized – but by whom? Palestinians get the most international help from all people. Their leaders amassed fortunes counting in millions of dollars (Arafat, Abbas, Haniyeh, Mashall etc. the information about fortunes of Palestinian leaders is easily available on the Internet). Huge amounts of money, which year after year go to Gaza from the international community, are used (what is left after the leaders got their share) to buy weapon against Israel. Cement and other building materials go to building terror tunnels. Civilians were used by Hamas to shield their rocket launchers and their weapon depots.
Moreover – is it really probable that no other people on Earth experienced similar level of deprivation? If not, where are all those suicide killers, where are people hacking with meat cleavers people praying in the synagogue/church/mosque? You need a deep hatred for that: like Hutus hatred toward Tutsis, Nazi hatred toward Jews, ISIS hatred toward anybody not being their kind of Muslim. After the Holocaust, there were people in Europe who lost their whole families, neighborhoods, towns. How many suicide killers were there? How many Catholic priests hacked to death? Neither can you see this type of behavior in Rwanda after the massacre.
I feel great pity for Palestinian nation which has the worst leaders (both political and religious) one can imagine. But this is not the fault of Israel.
You continue to educate me. Thank you, Malgorzata.
What Malgorzata said and to add, it is possible to chew gum and walk at the same time. I feel pretty bad for the regular Palestinian born into the circumstances of all the crappiness Malgorzata outlined, but that doesn’t change my comment. Israel doesn’t have a charter that calls for the extermination of Palestine but Palestine certainly has one that calls for the extermination of Israel. How can you start a conversation when that is the case? You just can’t move forward.
Well said!
Yes! What Malgorzata said. A Pew Research Center survey published 30 April 2013 showed 40% of Muslims in the Palestinian territories think suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified. That’s the highest in the world. Most are nowhere near that level (although Afghanistan is 39%).
I’ve just read this interesting post showing what does Israel do for the people of Gaza and what their own leaders do.
Sorry, something wrong, the link doesn’t open. You may look up: This Ongoing War, Who cares about rebuilding Gazan lives?
This link should go to the article Malgorzata mentions.
http://goo.gl/DQmxV5
sub.
You know…I’ll still take less-than-sincere public calls for peace than outright calls for violence. That sort of thing tends to both sway those who don’t realize the insincerity as well as hem in the options of those making the calls for peace.
If somebody takes Abbas up on his implied offer, he might not have much choice but to follow through…and that could well be the actual beginnings of actual peace. Whether he’s happy about it or not.
b&
Trouble is, Abbas says one thing (sort of) to the world and another to his people. The “martyrs” who hacked to death (imagine hacked to death) these 4 mostly elderly, unarmed Jews and murdered a Druse officer in the shoot out may well get streets named after them, or their relatives will get a condolence call from Abbas or Fatah, or… There is a duplicitous game going on, and the Palestinian people are the ones who suffer the most.
Take the Israelis returning to the tactic of destroying the homes of terrorists. I can’t say I approve of this as a tactic, but I’m not ready to condemn it yet. How do you deter someone who is willing to die? Who thinks he’s going to heaven as a martyr? In the NYT article, his relatives are consoled by the mansions that Allah will give them in heaven–presumably for being related to (or becoming themselves?) martyrs. How the hell do you combat that? Especially when you have people who don’t “just” want their own adjacent state, but see that as a launching pad to ethnically cleanse Jews “from the river to the sea”?
Ugh. This is such a mess.
That’s just it–they don’t want an adjacent state. They have been offered it time and time again and have refused to consider it. They have conned people into thinking that it is all about having “a state of their own”, but the state they want includes an ex-Israel, and they say so continually. I don’t understand how the con trick works when it is so transparent, but it does.
Ever since the conflict earlier this year, Fatah has been taking a more aggressive stance. Polls are showing that more people are starting to think Hamas is right because the peace process isn’t getting anywhere. Fatah are desperately trying to stay relevant. They have to say they condemn the killings to the West, they have to say they support them to the Arab world. Meantime, more innocent people are slaughtered in the name of religion.
We need to be honest about the causes of Palestinian violence. I think there is no question that the illegal Israeli occupation plays a large part in their view. Of course the anti-Semitic indoctrination of the Palestinian children is also part of it. But I don’t think we can, or should, expect Abbas to condemn the violence against Israeli civilians without mentioning the cause for their actions. It is possible to mention the occupation and Israeli violence as causes for some Palestinians’ horrible acts against civilians without excusing or defending their actions.
Even forgetting about Israeli withdrawal from Gaza 2005, leaving this territory to Palestinian Authority, forgetting about the fact that Palestinians on the West Bank enjoy greater autonomy than many people of the world, if “occupation” explains the violence, what is the reason of violence against weak minorities in the Middle East? Neither Yazidis, nor Copts nor Kurds, nor any other hounded, hacked, raped, murdered minority in the Middle East occupy anything “illegally”.
First, Israel never actually relinquished control over Gaza. Human Rights Watch still considers Israel as occupying Gaza because it has total control over everything that goes in or out of the territory. Not to mention control of their airspace and territorial waters.
I was explicit in saying that the occupation is only PART of the PALESTINIAN violence. The violence against the minorities you mentioned have nothing to do with the Israel-Palestine question or with anything I said.
Human Right Watch is no expert in international law. Many real experts in international law claim that situation in Gaza does not amount to occupation as it is understood in the international law. Here is one example: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/11/13/why-gaza-is-not-remotely-occupied-i/
Jews are a minority in the Middle East (6 million Jews versus some 350 million Arabs). Jews were persecuted, treated as second, third class citizens (if citizens at all) in Arab countries. Ethnic cleansing of Jews from Arab countries is almost total – there are 90 Jews left in Yemen, 12 in Egypt, for example. Israel is treated by religious and political authorieties in the Middle East as a obnoxious minority which has the cheek to be military stronger than they are. If they only could they would do to them the same they are doing to Copts, other Christians and other minorities. Hamas is an outgrowth of Muslim Brotherhood (the main persecutor of Copts).
Your claim that the persecution of minorities has nothing to do with Israeli-Palestinian conflict sounds rather strange. It is the same cry “Allah Akbar”, the same attitude that sheer presence of Jews “defile” Islamic places (statment by Mahmoud Abbas), the same drive to Islamic supremacy.
Let me try again to bring you back to the topic we are discussing which is the causes of Palestinian violence. I don’t think that the Palestinian people much care about the intricacies of the definition of “occupation” under international law. We need to look at their experience as reported by various human rights organizations to understand the cause of their actions. Which is why I cited HRW since they deal with the actual violence and war crimes committed by Israel. No one is disputing that Jews have been one of the most persecuted people in history, or that anti-Semitic sentiments are prevalent in the Muslim world. But to maintain that the violence committed by Palestinians against Israelis has nothing to do with the decades of violence perpetrated by Israel is a fantasy.
Hamas surely is a horrible organization, but the fact is that in joining the West Bank in a unity government earlier this year, they have committed themselves to the international consensus for a two-settlement solution.
It’s quite funny to hear you complain about Abbas’ comments regarding the “defiling of Islamic places” as an example of their “drive to Islamic supremacy”. This is a day after the Israeli cabinet passed legislation defining Israel as a nation-state for Jews instead of for its citizens (of which 20% are not Jewish).
The reason of Palestinian violence towards Jews is exactly the same as reason of Bohdan Chmielnicki towards Jew of Ukraina, Ochrana towards Jews of Russia, of Arabs in the British Mandate of Palestine 1929 against Jews from Hebron and Jerusalem, of Arabs from Iraq 1941 against Jews in Bagdad (Farhud pogrom) not to mention Nazis, war 1948 when 5 Arab armies went to exterminate Jews of Israel, and until 1967 (when Egypt, Syria and Jordan wanted to try again). Until this war there was no occupation but the hatred was there. BTW PLO was established 1964 to “liberate Palestine”. They said explicitly that they do no mean Judea and Samaria, renamed by an occupying power, Jordan into West Bank – they didn’t want to take it from Jordan, oh no! They meant Israel. And until people in the West realize what is the real reason of Palestinian violence and stop condoning it there will be no peace between Israel and Palestinians. You repeat like mantra “Israeli war crimes”. What war crimes? The world seem to cry “war crime” when Israel defends itself. And the cabinet discussed the law which would say that Israel is a Jewish state, without in any way infringe on the rights of national, ethnic and religious minorities. Well, my country’s official name is “Rzeczpospolita Polska” – Polish Republic. But all minorities (and we have some) have equal rights. What is your problem with that?
Here are some statements by Palestinian leaders: http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/11/24/words-quotes-palestinian-leaders/
A passage from Christopher Hitchens, writing about Northern Ireland, is relevant:
“I eventually came to appreciate a feature of the situation that has since helped me to understand similar obduracy in Lebanon, Gaza, Cyprus, and several other spots. The local leaderships that are generated by the “troubles” in such places do not want there to be a solution. A solution would mean that they were no longer deferred to by visiting UN or American mediators, no longer invited to ritzy high-profile international conferences, no longer treated with deference by the mass media, and no longer able to make a second living by smuggling and protection racketeering. The power of this parasitic class was what protracted the fighting in Northern Ireland for years and years after it had become obvious to all that nobody (except the racketeers) could “win.” And when it was over, far too many of the racketeers became profiteers of the “peace process” as well.”
(From Hitch 22)
As usual, it is clear the Hitch hits the mark there. We dearly miss him, since no comparable ‘warrior’ has stood up yet.
As Dawkins mentioned, “We have lost our most powerful rhetorical artillery piece.”
Ding ding ding ding! We have a winner! (But then, we knew that about Hitch.)
There is a lot in this. Most comparisons of Northern Ireland and Israel/Palestine are facile and inaccurate, but this is the first one I’ve heard that makes a good point. Per capita the Palestinians have received several times the amount of the Marshall Plan. Who would want to stop all that cash rolling in?
One thing seems clear in the Middle East is that total and complete hatred that consumes the people 24 hours a day is a dead end.
They live in a religious world that is impossible to understand.
Reblogged this on Congratulations, you are a Science Nerd and commented:
I am just starting to come on again . There will be a few more comments and posts but this post by Jerry Coyne is important. I do not believe that Netanyahu is the greatest peacemaker or warrior for Israel but the other side is impossible to deal with anyway as the reaction to the terrorists who slaughtered the Rabbis . There are no moderates on the other side at this point and Israel must do what it must to survive within civil law and I stress civil law. If however it is provoked then war is necessary and everything that comes with it. Thank you again Jerry.
Many of these comments strike me as those of people who arrive during Act 3 of a play and proceed to analyze things ignoring what went before.
Auden:
“I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return.”
this works both ways. And when the two state solution is dead, when there is not enough justice to go around, and the more powerful “win”, and there is only one country, what then?
Didn’t a crowd of Israelis sit at the beach with popcorn as the IDF bombed a Gaza beach killing 4 young boys? A fair amount on both sides despise each other.
The difference is that IDF conducted inquiry to this killing, all authorities expressed sorrow about the killing, there were plenty of articles in Israeli mainstream media analysing minutiae of this evenmt: was the huge container with Hamas’s weapon close to the scene? Could the soldiers see that this were children? etc. No one person in authority (political, social, religious) expressed joy at the death of those children. Compare this to the other side: Abbas paying tribute to the murderer of a 3-month old Chaya Zissel Brown, Abbas comforting families of all those murderers killed in the last weeks. Hamas and PA officials, high ranking clerics, media etc. praising them as heroes and role models for young generation.
In every society you have racists, haters etc. But as long as authorities are openly against it, as long as there are laws prohibiting discrimination those attitudes are in minority or at least hidden. The day authorities announce that it is OK to hate, that it is OK to maim and kill and that there will be reward for it (either 72 virgins after death or high salaries for murderers with a prison sentence plus the glory and praise)you get plenty of volunteers.
I assume that this is the same situation I read about in a NY Times article, which stated words to the effect that the boys had cavalierly disregarded their parents’ directive not to go to the beach, a directive motivated by the possibility/probability that what happened could/would happen.
The point is a bunch of Israelis despised the Palestinians so deeply that they were more than happy to put up beach chairs, cook popcorn, and enjoy a murder show. That’s the point.
Isn’t the real point what a society does with its miscreants, racists, haters murderers etc.? You will find such scum in every society. Why should Israel be spared them? But they are treated as scum, which you definitely cannot say about treatment of murderers in Palestinian society.
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Like Sam Harris says, What is fundamentally wrong with Islam is its fundamentals. I think the word “conflict” like the word “atheist” is a misnomer because because it implies a sort of equality. If both sides had the power to do as they wished, Palestine (the leaders, not necessarily the indoctrinated, abused, uneducated people), they would obviously kill all Jews – and then all unbelievers to establish Islam Supreme. This injunction is repeated ad nauseum in the Koran (read SH where he reproduces sutra after unabrogated sutra). Israel is not out to kill all Muslims – this is simply not a tenet of Jewish faith.