UPDATE: Within minutes of posting this, I received this post from “angelaflight”:
What a disappointment. I chose your book for my home school book club on Evolution and it was my daughter’s favorite because you made the argument in favor of Evolution in a respectful, straightforward way, without all the anti-anybody mean-spirited negativity that one usually sees in such a book. And here you are with little, small-minded, spiteful posts on your blog. Do grow up.
The people who should grow up are those who try to indoctrinate their kids in fictitious stories such as the torture and resurrection of Christ. Time to put away those childish things, anglaflight. Peeps are better than whips!
_____________
Welcome to a Special Easter Edition of WEIT! Readers sent me too many items to show, but I’ll feature today a series of posts highlighting the behavior of those celebrating Jesus’s Resurrection. (I”m puzzled about one thing, though: if he was crucified on Friday afternoon, and was resurrected THREE days later, why is Easter on a Sunday instead of a Monday?)
But first I’ll show you a lovely present my friend Carolyn gave me: Resurrection Eggs, in both Spanish and English!
The lovely box:
Inside: a carton of a dozen plastic eggs. What is inside? Candies? No way!
It’s Jesus symbols! Note the pieces of silver, the shroud, and the crown of thorns:
A handy bilingual pamphlet tells you what each item symbolizes. The white is an empty egg, symbolizing of course the Empty Tomb:
Easter FUN? Imagine a kid hoping to get, say chocolate inside the eggs, and finding instead a WHIP!:
Fortunately, Carolyn supplemented this ghoulish form of child indoctrination with some real treats—my favorite Easter candy, but one good at any time of year:
Let’s hear from the Peep-lovers (I like mine slightly stale). If you don’t like ’em, don’t bother to tell us below.
if he was crucified on Friday afternoon, and was resurrected THREE days later…
This was before the invention of zero, so time wasn’t measured like a distance but by counting ‘inclusively’, starting on the first day, then second and third. It’s how the Roman calendar worked, and why there’s nothing between BC and AD. But I’m sure you knew that.
French fortnight: quinze jours – same idea.
These are the same folk who think dinosaurs co-existed with humans about 6,00 years ago so a one day error in the lost weekend of zombie jesus is quite the improvement.
Speaking of errors, that would be 6,000 years.
Better be off by a factor of 10 than 75000!
Weellll… Actually they did co-exist with the dinosaurs 6,000 and 600 (and 60) years ago… Just not the non-avian subset of dinosaurs.
That still doesn’t fit though, because Matthew has Jesus saying explicitly that it will be three days and three nights. The contradiction is real, not a matter of convention.
Really? The story is about a guy rising from the dead and you’re nitpicking about which day it was?
Jesus was, as I recall, a Jew. The Jews, as I recall, sometimes count as a “day” (such as shabbat) the period from dusk to dusk, not the period from dawn to dawn. So, the first “day” of the Easter period ran from dusk on “Thursday” to dusk on “Friday”; the second from dusk on “Friday” to dusk on “Saturday”; and the third from dusk on “Saturday” to dusk on “Sunday”.
All of which is, of course, perfectly consistent with the gospel according to Matthew – there is no contradiction at all, whether real or conventional. Nor is the matter of zero relevant in the least. Those who trumpet the triumph of reason over faith should, one feels, be able to reason.
^^^THIS^^^
well said.
But please explain how you get three NIGHTS in the tomb out of this. From Friday afternoon [he wasn’t in the tomb on Thursday night] until Sunday morning is two nights–Friday and Saturday. When I first started really reading the Bible, this was one of the things that troubled me.
You fail to account for the word “after”.
“Before the invention of zero”
Holy crap you’re wrong. It’s not even funny. First off, zero? Yea, it was in use before 1,000BCE.
Anyway, no, the reason it’s Sunday is because a) the church looooves Sunday, and b) many cultures counted inclusively, so first day is Friday, Saturday, Sunday.
Zero must have been around 5,000,000,000 years ago too otherwise you would never have been able to write or say that number. It would have been 5 🙂
Actually, the Romans and the ancient Hebrews didn’t have zero as a number or a numeral.
Numerical place-holders were in use by other cultures at the time, but the concept of zero as a number doesn’t appear until the 9th century AD in India, or (extremely debatable) the 2nd century AD in Greece.
Mathematically, anything that gave out an answer we’d call zero was notated as ‘nothing’, by which they literally meant nothing; as such, there was much philosophising about the idea of ‘nothing’ being a ‘something’ before the Greeks would accept the idea of a zero being a number.
The Mayans, whom existed from approximately 1500 to 800 BC, had zero as a number in their base 20 vigesimal system….Long before Europe, blah blah blah… Really people, you’re arguing resurrection myths! I’m sure most of the stories in the bible are fictitious, thus determining their exact details rather futile. There are books more recently written than the bible, that are far more worthy of this level of dissection.
Babylonian mathematics in the 2nd millennium BC, used a sophisticated positional numeral system were the value of zero was indicated by a space between numerals. The Egyptians also had symbols representing zero and we have written evidence that variants of this symbol was in common usage by 1740 BC and included in various accounting records, drawings, distances, measurements, etc. While perhaps the symbol we recognize as ZERO 0, came along later, it’s clear that this concept was well known in the ancient world.
3 days and 3 nights is still 3 days and 3 nights.
That’s as may be, but the cultures in question weren’t doing this.
So when the bible says that the value of pi is 3, it means that the value of pi is 2.
One, two, five
Three, sire!
A couple of weeks ago I found *watermelon* Peeps. Light green on the outside, pink on the inside.
huh. i saw watermelon Oreos at Target the other night. what a world.
Oh, now that’s just WRONG!
sounds disGUSting
So they look like flesh on the inside? How appropriate.
My mother-in-law bought us lemonade flavored peeps. I’m not sure I’m brave enough to try them.
It’s your fault my daughter purchase those things!!! It’s all your fault! She heard you say watermelon Oreos.
(Some guy last night at target did say “look watermelon Oreos” and my daughter had to buy them and see what they tasted like.)
I LOVE peeps…Especially stale ones….I would love to find watermelon peeps. Ilove watermelon…Have not seen that flavor yet..Though…all the colors do taste the same anyway….
I’ve never had a peep, so I can’t comment on that> I don’t even know if they’re available down here. But it’s always chocolate at Easter for me.
And, for Tom Waits, it’s a chocolate jesus every Sunday:
”
Don’t go to church on Sunday
Don’t get on my knees to pray
Don’t memorize the books of the Bible
I got my own special way
But I know Jesus loves me
Maybe just a little bit more
I fall on my knees every Sunday
At Zerelda Lee’s candy store
Well it’s got to be a chocolate Jesus
Make me feel good inside
Got to be a chocolate Jesus
Keep me satisfied
”
Enjoy!
I was about to make the same comment! Tom Waits has a beautiful voice. I have never had a peep, I don’t know if they are available in England, I’ve never looked.
OMG. I thought everyone has eaten a peep…You have to try one!!!! They are delicious..
We are completely deprived of peeps on this side of the Atlantic. I will have to make do with a toasted bagel this morning.
As for the Resurrection Eggs, it strikes me as a rather macabre and tacky gift for a child; even though as someone who was raised a Catholic I understand exactly where it is coming from and what it is intended to be used as. The mindset of the person who decided that instruments of torture be concealed within brightly colored eggs is frightening to contemplate.
However, mental torture is what the whole Good Friday to Easter ceremony is all about. I frequently saw adults weep at the Friday ceremony, the guilt at being told that all this inhumane suffering and death was because of them just got too much.
And that is the rationale behind the Resurrection Eggs: it’s for people who feel that there are too many candy eggs and bunnies and not enough guilt and sadness in their children’s mind.
Macabre describes that set of sadomasochistic iconography packaged as pseudo toys quite well. Fitting too is the Wonder Bread label allusion on the carton. Both products promise nourishing contents but deliver the opposite.
Peep deprived in Ireland? I had no idea. The next time I ship cheese popcorn to my friends in Dublin I’ll be sure to include a pack of peeps.
BTW I prefer my peeps a full year stale.
Never seen Peeps before. Are they candied voles or chicks?
Marshmallow chicks. Marshmallow voles would be disgusting.
😀
What makes them better than just marshmallows?
/@
Ah… a sugar coating. Not so good for a diabetic.
/@
I’ve never had a peep. I’m all about the Cadbury cream eggs. Maybe that’s like saying you don’t bother with pot when youve got smack?
Never had a peep, Cream eggs are fantastic Have you tried the new chocolate egg with the spoon and the mousse!
Cadbury eggs rock!
Cadbury are persona non gratis to a lot of Australians since they lost all pride, caved in and now pay to have their products Halal certified.
Bullshirt… the ones who care are now happy they can eat them, the rest of us just continue to enjoy them. The few who are upset are named Ken.
It’s Creme. 😉
And Cadbury’s Screme Eggs at Hallowe’en!
/@
Best way to eat Peeps – roasted over a campfire. The sugar carmelizes and turns into a crispy shell.
Sounds like an interesting project for our homemade Death Ray solar cooker! We’ll have to pick up some Peeps at the candy sales tomorrow while we’re loading up on Russell Stover dark chocolate marshmallow eggs.
Pick up some Circus Peanuts and see if your Death Ray device can make them disappear. If it does, you could go into production.
When I was in Boy Scouts, My scout leader had us build a parabolic stove that we used to cook everything from hot dogs, marshmallows for smores and , most relevantly, peeps. The sight of finding that invisible point where the sunlight all converged and watching your food almost instantly cook is still something I remember with wonder and fascination.
I like the nostalgia of Peeps – Easter, good food, bunnies of the chocolate variety. But every time I buy a box and eat one, I remember why I don’t particulary like them. I prefer peanut butter eggs, thank you very much.
Mmmm my favourite too!
I guess pointing out ghoulish children toys is “immature”? It’s not like Jerry manufactured them!
When I was a kid, the only exposure I got to Christian religion was from TV, my public school (jerks!) and some Christians around me. Not realizing that years had passed between Christ’s birth at Christmas and death on Good Friday, I thought Jesus grew super fast and it was just another miracle like the virgin birth. I’ve heard others had this similar misunderstanding as kids.
For me, Easter has always been about the goodies; I’m not sure we have Peeps in Canada but if we don’t, we have something similar. I suspect chocolate gives me migraines so I’m eating pure sugar filled treats this year and as a Canadian I get to feel bad ass in a strange reversal of having access to something deemed dangerous in the States (usually it is the other way around with Americans getting more dangerous things like firearms and better firecrackers)….that something is the Kinder Surprise egg!
Ghoulish is right.
It is one of my deep dreams to wish upon all Christians a personal burro as their one and only mode of transportation. Just one part of my ‘Got Science?’ campaign.
“a personal burro”
Do you work for BLM? 🙂
These eggs will be great for sowing unhappiness among young children. The nails are real but the spear is wimpy plastic, so some kid is going to cry because he wants a “real” spear. Another will be disappointed because he only got a rock, like Charlie Brown at Halloween, and the kid with the white egg will be looking for the ghost of Jesus.
Speaking of christian burros, try googling “jerusalem donkey”. Stumbled on the critters the other day in a book about Zimbabwe…
This seems like the right place; please don’t miss this cartoon.
peeps must be semi-stale to be good 🙂 of course having some around at xmas time and decorating your tree with the rock hard bodies is best.
you should also try the Goldenberg Peanut Chews that the Just Born folks also produce. Tasty morsels of molasses flavored caramel with peanuts and then covered with chocolate.
the “resurrection eggs” must be made by the same people who make the ten plagues play set. just what everyone wants, a scab/boil to play with, as well as a dead body celebrating the intentional murder of people who had no choice since their leader was being mind-controlled.
I feel so deprived..never had a scab/boil to play with as a kid:-(
A replacement for a striking union worker is kind of an odd toy.
Is it just me, or do the “prayer hands” in that egg look like the first sign of a zombie starting to crawl out of the grave?
Now, remind me…where’d I put that shotgun and shovel…?
b&
In the one photo they look like one hand. I thought perhaps it was Pilate’s slappy hand. See, they missed one. Pilate’s slappy hand would’ve totally fit in with the rest.
Yes, but Jesus was a Lich
I dunno…Jesus seems awfully braindead to me. Then again, I’ll admit to not being the most educated practitioner of the necromantic arts….
b&
Not compared to Lazarus, who was revived on the fourth day, which is one day too late, according to my understanding of what beliefs of that time were about when souls departed for the hereafter. Note, Lazarus doesn’t have a single line. They make him a supper. It’s kind of reversed compared to the zombie stories of today.
As I recall, Lazarus’s family and friends begged Jesus to not resurrect him because his putrefying flesh smelled so awful, and the fact that Jesus went ahead and reanimated that stinking corpse was one of the last straws leading to his own arrest and execution.
And I don’t think a Christian could complain that I’ve mischaracterized the Gospel portrayal of the story, though I could understand if they would rather nobody mention those bits and instead focussed on “Look! Victory over death!” narrative.
b&
I like to imagine Jesus really drunk and laughingly wanting to do it with his friends trying to physically stop him and they’re laughing too.
Hey, Peter — hold my beer for me, will ya? Of course it’s beer! You don’t think I didn’t bother changing that well into beer before I filled up, do you?
b&
And the first thing Lazarus asked after being raised is why he’s got a tattoo on his butt.
Also, Jesus gets notified by the second day but then cools his heels for two days before heading to Lazarus’ town. Thus delaying past the three day “best by” deadline. What a friend Lazarus has in Jesus. The story goes so far to make this plain, seems like there must be some message here. Or a joke.
There’s a great deal about the Bible that makes one think the authors were deliberately trying for absurd over-the-top hyperbole that nobody could ever possibly believe in, just to see if they could make somebody believe in it anyway.
b&
This is an example of why I wish you would take the time to read Caesar’s Messiah, Ben. You have already figured out about half of what Atwill is arguing on your own. He puts it all together, though. The argument that it’s all a viciously cruel joke can be supported on many levels. That’s because, what’s the point of making a big joke if nobody gets it or knows if it’s really a joke or not? So the authors of Christianity made it possible to see the joke with certainty, by basing the ministry of Jesus on Titus’s military campaign, as officially described by Josephus, and making Jesus’ ministry a silly re-enactment, with Jesus a foolish and incompetent false messiah. It’s sort of how Bored of the Rings is based on Lord of the Rings. Even if Bored of the Rings didn’t say so in the preface, if you read both, could it really not be obvious they’re the same story, and which one is based on the other?
The CM chapter on this is “Eleazar Lazarus: The Real Christ”.
Oh dear, Dave, this is just sub-von Danikenish nonsense. So Jesus just ‘re-enacted Titus’ military campaign’? So why set the action before Titus, as evidenced by the mention of Pontius Pilate? A pre-enactment.
If Atwill is right, why is Francesco Carotta wrong? He posits that the Christ story is an allegory of Julius Caesar’s post-Rubicon career: and bases his ‘proof’ on equally tenuous assertions. Hey, ‘Galilee’ looks a bit like ‘Gallia’. Pardon me if I remain unconvinced. With which Roman Emperor or leading Senator is the Jesus story an allegory? Or maybe not even with a Roman: perhaps a Greek? Or even a Persian? After all, a lot of the OT was probably written in Persia.
I can reveal that the Christ story is really an allegory of the Persian king Xerxes I, from 500 years before. Like Jesus he was a monotheist, he was the son of a father who went to Egypt. But the parallels are especially obvious in his military campaign to invade Greece. His bridging of the Hellespont mirrors Jesus’ crossing of the River Jordan passim, the vastness of his army reminds us of the huge numbers who allegedly followed Jesus, his burning of Athens reflects Jesus’ rage in the Temple, his ultimate defeat recalls Jesus’ death on the cross and his army’s retreat evokes the disciples’ return to Galilee after the Jerusalem debacle: and like Jesus, Xerxes was murdered by high status local officials.
Spookily similar, eh? And it took me 15 minutes to make it up. And, obviously, complete bollocks
It’s trivially simple to see parallels in any story you choose. They prove absolutely nothing.
Slaínte.
Hi Dermot C, the likelihood that somebody with motive and resources invented a religion is a lot higher on its face than that visiting aliens built the pyramids, etc.
I don’t see the big problem with setting the comedy earlier than the events it’s based on, given that the targets of it weren’t supposed to put together that one was based on the other. Anyhow, the Flavians had to make Jesus come as the impostor prior to the coming of the “true” messiah of the Jews, who after all was declared by Josephus to be Vespasian. Putting it concurrent or after wouldn’t set up the coming of the true messiah.
Francis Carotta can still be correct that certain details of Jesus’s biography could be borrowed from that of Julius Caesar’s. That would have been standard literature for the Caesarian Cult to borrow from. But, it’s the Flavians who’d just finished fighting a costly war crushing messianic Jewish rebels, and it was Vespasian who needed to get deified to cement the Flavian claim to the imperial throne.
Your parallels are nothing like Atwill’s. You really should try reading things before dismissing them categorically. Titus crushed the rebellion in the Galilee and then entered Jerusalem after knocking for a while (and the very stones cried out that “the son cometh”, according to Josephus). Jesus wandered around following the same path, giving sermons where there were battles that seem to allude to those battles in satirical ways. Then he knocked at the gate and entered Jerusalem and messed up the temple a little bit. Also, he predicts that while some present are still living, the Son of Man is going to come and raze the whole place so that no stone will be upon another. It wasn’t Julius Caesar who fulfilled that prophecy. It was Titus Flavius (the second actually, since that is Vespasian’s name too), the son of a true god (said godhood being later legally bestowed by the Roman senate).
You will never find a single event of history and/or work of literature that is parallel to Jesus’s ministry to the degree that the campaign of Titus is. None of the others are going to be set in the same place, even, let alone follow the same sequence. Then to this is added the richness and vicious satirical humor of the parallels. You can only experience that by actually looking at them. I will describe a view if it will help but this is not the best place or format. Easier if you read it. I think I can lend my kindle edition out, if you’re interested. You should at least read a few parts. If anybody wants to borrow it they are welcome to it. I’ve got other formats so I won’t be deprived.
This review by Michael Turton is what got me interested: http://www.amazon.com/review/R7VG5UNAA200Y/ref=cm_cr_dp_title?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1569754578&nodeID=283155&store=books
Sorry, Dave. It would be a complete waste of my time to read Atwill: some people you can dismiss without further effort. Atwill and Carotta, bedfellows in the Baigent/Brown Biblical Studies asylum, are examples of the genre.
Slaínte.
Could it be something to do with the Jewish habit of counting days from sunset to sunset … so unless Wossname croaked at or after sunset, then the day he croaked was one day ; a day of rest on the Saturday (got a shroud to pack out with neutron irradiation to load it up with confusing C-14 and give it an erroneous late 13th century date ; that’s gotta take time!) ; so any time after sunset Saturday is now into the third day. And the groupie girls went to the tomb at sunrise on the Sunday morning? (I’d have to consult a god-wottery book to check the details of the story, and they’re probably different between different reporters any way.)
I don’t know about kids, either human or caprine, but I do know adults whose eyes would glaze over (or some other, ehemmm, physical manifestation of pleasure) at the idea. They’d be thinking of whips in the same way that Robert Mapplethorpe does though. Did. (If you don’t know the photo I linked to there, I advise you to not click on it. It was probably an inspiration to the “goatse man”. Really, don’t.)
I think I’ve just had yet another idea for making my first million.
If that idea involves a Peeps-themed Goatse reenactment…well, I hate to break it to you: not all fame comes with fortune….
b&
I started trying to imagine that but self censored before complete repulsion took hold.
Consider yourself most fortunate….
b&
More like S+M chocolate goodies. There is definitely a market, and some people are … nervous … of getting into that market.
I know a woman who ran “lingerie and sex toys” parties for her girlfriends. Fun night out for the girls. And to get things kicked off, she’d distribute chocolate lignam sweeties. Some of the girls would bite the heads off, some the other bits … and laughter and chat and really rude jokes would follow. And some of the girls would pop the lignam into their hand bags to consume later (or have a laugh with the girls in the office.
Good honest fun. Which gets harder to explain when the 8 y.o. daughter finds the chocolate in the handbag and takes it into school. Where the headmistress (an Xtian battleaxe) finds her showing it to about 6 friends.
But who could possibly object to a chocolate bullwhip or a regal Prince Albert?
Hmm…I never thought of <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_KDPUTyDyQAlpert as regal, though I suppose he does dress the part….
And how does one crack a chocolate bullwhip? I mean, without the whip actually…er…cracking?
b&
I was referring to one of the other uses of the term “Prince Albert” which doesn’t refer to grapes, pipes or an item of clothing. Well, “clothing” for certain values of “clothing” that don’t include much, errr, cloth or -ing.
Hey, what’s an ascender or descender amongst friends?
b&
Groovy story, dude, but it’s spelled lingam.
I love the smell of pedantry in the morning…
Mind you, if they explain the whole flogging bankers thing the whip might not be too bad a thing; it can only make the children less republican.
Why is the white one empty? “Hey, kid, you thought you were getting something. But no! Ha! Ha! Ha!”.
Still, it’s better than the others.
Oh I dunno. I liked the donkey. Afterwards, you can add him to the rest of the farmyard collection where he can enjoy the remainder of his days surrounded by other animals in the fields.
http://tinyurl.com/ky9dxtq
The adorable Jerusalem donkey
Awww squee! 🙂
The Sistine Chapel of Peeps art is the Washington Post and its diorama contest:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/peeps/
(1) I like my peeps totally stale.
(2) When I was a kid, I would’ve loved those resurrection eggs. First, because I preferred small objects to candy. (I can’t be the only one.) Second, because I knew the story backward and forward and it would have given me a chance to show off.
Speaking of indoctrinating children, last night I watched a documentary called _Jesus Camp_ about children being indoctrinated into evangelical Christianity. Truly scary.
Dunkin’ Donuts has Peeps donuts, for a limited time. A frosted donut w/ a Peep in the hole.
Of course here in Colorado, Easter being on 4/20, many eggs are filled with bud.
I don’t know what Peeps is. And if they can go stale I’m not sure I want to know. =D
I don’t know the details, but the not-so-secret secret is that this festival, as so many others, derive from the gray area between secular and religious festivals that hark back to prehistory (pre asserted history, that is).
Easter is christianist sects derivative of judaism Passover. It is, unless I’m mistaken, a 7 day festivity.
Pesach, as well as the judean solar calender and the hebreic language, almost certainly derives from the same time (with the leap year calender version)/same food/same “7” number magic based persian new year festivities of Nowruz. It can be 2 weeks long, and has 7 table items symbolizing zoroastrian deities. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowruz ]
That takes us back 3 000 years, before the religious roots, making it a purported secular festivities (“It is a secular holiday…”).
The persian solar calender derives from the babylonian, which in turn goes back to a sumerian, taking us back ~ 5 000 [!] years to the Sumerian king list of Middle Bronze Age. Most likely, the new year celebration followed with, whether it was originally secular or religious.
And here the influences comes full circle, I see. By way of the persian calender, most likely, the hebrew Sabbath derived from the (apparently perverted) festival of the full moon:
“Further, reconstruction of a broken tablet seems to define the rarely attested Sapattu^m or Sabattu^m as the full moon. This word is cognate or merged with Hebrew Shabbat, but is monthly rather than weekly; it is regarded as a form of Sumerian sa-bat (“mid-rest”), attested in Akkadian as um nuh libbi (“day of mid-repose”).
According to Marcello Craveri, Sabbath “was almost certainly derived from the Babylonian Shabattu, the festival of the full moon, but, all trace of any such origin having been lost, the Hebrews ascribed it to Biblical legend.”[7] This conclusion is a contextual restoration of the damaged Enûma Eliš creation account, which is read as: “[Sa]bbath shalt thou then encounter, mid[month]ly.”[1]”
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_calendar ]
FWIW, Enûma Eliš, as opposed to Genesis, makes sense! Humans are, as so often, created to be servants to its creators:
“This epic is one of the most important sources for understanding the Babylonian worldview, centered on the supremacy of Marduk and the creation of humankind for the service of the gods. Its primary original purpose, however, is not an exposition of theology or theogony but the elevation of Marduk, the chief god of Babylon, above other Mesopotamian gods.”
“The title, meaning “when on high”, is the incipit. The first tablet begins:
e-nu-ma e-liš la na-bu-ú šá-ma-mu When the sky above was not named,
šap-liš am-ma-tum šu-ma la zak-rat And the earth beneath did not yet bear a name,
ZU.AB-ma reš-tu-ú za-ru-šu-un And the primeval Apsû, who begat them,
mu-um-mu ti-amat mu-al-li-da-at gim-ri-šú-un And chaos, Tiamat, the mother of them both,
A.MEŠ-šú-nu iš-te-niš i-ḫi-qu-ú-ma Their waters were mingled together,
gi-pa-ra la ki-is-su-ru su-sa-a la she-‘u-ú And no field was formed, no marsh was to be seen;
e-nu-ma dingir dingir la šu-pu-u ma-na-ma When of the gods none had been called into
being.
[And then it goes into a mythos akin to the greek/nordic, of gods/stuff emerging out of the body of a slain giant.]
“The Enûma Eliš was recognized as being related to the Jewish Genesis creation mythos from its first publication … In one interpretation, Genesis 1:1-3 can be taken as describing the state of chaos [of Enûma Eliš] …”
A peep is marshmallow candy shaped like a baby chick….They are better stale…Many people buy them, take off the cellophane wrapping and they get hard (stale) and the next day they are yummy.. Look them up on Google. I am sure you have seen them many times…
When I was a kid the Easter Egg dye kit used to come with decals to transfer onto the eggs after coloring. One of my favorites was a strange one which didn’t look like the others. All the transfers were cartoon bunnies and chicks and the like — with the exception of a relatively artistic rendering of a large lily and a cross. I had little idea what it was supposed to mean or its connection to Easter, as my parents were “freethinkers” and hadn’t indoctrinated me in any particular sect. It was “Christian.” But it stood out aesthetically and thus it was my favorite.
The Argument from Beauty 😉
This is sort of weird, in that I either have to assume that this is a brand new visitor who stumbled here once … or imagine someone who has been just fine with all the snark on theology, the existence of God, and the truth of Christianity but gets upset with making fun of plastic eggs containing whips.
It’s probably the first one. She used the word bl*g.
This reminds me of a wonderful gift from my family to my son when he was 2 or 3–a coloring book about Easter, complete with a cover page of bloody Jesus with the crown of thorns piercing his head.
On another note, I took in Easter Mass at the local church today and thought it’d be interesting to see if we’re all missing something about what believers REALLY believe as has been the frequent topic here lately.
The highlight of the priest’s sermon was when he said, “Now you could come up with a million other reasons why the tomb was empty, but like the apostles, we must believe that it was for something more, and that is where FAITH comes in. We must have faith that his sacrifice redeemed us…”
Later, as is the norm, during the Renewal of Baptismal Promises, it was stated that we believe Jesus rose into Heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. Nothing about metaphorically rising and sitting…
Goulish indeed. But the idea of making money by selling religious toys and trinkets for the gullible and ill-informed has been going on for centuries. Fragments of the “true cross’ and other baubles have been sold to the pilgrims at so-called “holy sites” for centuries, and indeed still are. It is just nowadays the trinkets are mostly made of plastic!!
Remember kids, Jesus endured torture and died to save you from what he would do to you if you don’t accept Him as your saviour. But don’t ask me I dont get it either.
I spent last friday with my munchkin doing touristy things. While waiting for public transportation, we were talking about how a lot of people don’t go to work on good friday, and I started talking about how jesus died, but he really didn’t die. And he’s god, but also god’s son. etc. etc. The whole illogical story. We had a good laugh.
Well, apparently we were overheard, because my munchkin got to meet his first jesus freak. A few stops later, some guy came over and asked if he could give the munchkin some literature, which turned out to be a tract about the cross and the books of john and romans. Apparently he figured I was a lost cause (he would be correct).
At least he was polite, and talked to me not my child. I congratulated munchkin on meeting their first jesus freak.
I live in central PA, not far from where peeps are made in Bethlehem, PA, so they are available almost year round. They now offer them for every imaginary holiday in many more shapes, but the shape doesn’t matter to me. How can you not like colored sugar coated marshmallows?
My mom got upset Friday because of “what those people did to Jesus.” I pointed out that had he not been martyred, he would have never risen from the dead and there would be no Christianity, so if anything you should THANK the people who killed him.
In other news, I was watching The Passion of the Christ last night, but it was so violent I turned on a Quentin Taratino movie instead. I was hoping for Life of Brian, but no such luck.
But … that’s not a whip, it’s a scourge
Pedants are the whip of the Internet…
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Stale peeps are my favorite! Have you seen the picture going around of the toddlers re-enacting the crucifixion? Complete with loin-clothes toddler “hanging” from the cross with fake wounds….fun times!!
Just maybe gorging ourselves on chocolate and sugar a dozen times a year is just as ridiculous.
Gorging on chocolate and sugar a few times a year isn’t at all ridiculous. What’s the purpose of life if you don’t indulge in luxuries every now and again?
But doing so every month might not be the best of ideas.
b&
First you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women.
Just got back from spending easter sunday morning at a bowling alley to celebrate the birthday of a family member. I think I found a new easter morning tradition. Best easter ever.
As for peeps, the only thing better than peeps is the Washington Post Peep Diorama contest. The winner a couple of years ago was a complete recreation of the Chile mine rescue in peeps.
Did you wear a Jesus bowling jumpsuit ala Big Lebowski?
What a concept: the Peeps dioramas!!
No funny clothes, but they put guard rails in the gutters for the little kids. Bowling is a lot easier with no gutters!
A couple of points. I recall hearing that numerous people survived crucifixion, so if ‘Jesus’ really did rise from the tomb, it was not a unique event. Think about it, in the first century, what medical knowledge was available? Secondly, it is well known the Christian took numerous dates in the calendar that used to be Pagan festivals, and re-branded them. Christmas day being the most famous. PS never tried a Peep, but they look awful!
Peeps are sugar coated marshmallows. Delicious!!!
I took my children to a church community Easter egg hunt at out local park about 2-3 years ago. I watched in horror as they pitched this story to the kids ranging from 2-10. In age Never went back to the church or any of their events after that. They had the kids open the eggs and then the kids had to explain why they thought a Barbie sized rail road tie was in an Easter egg. Then the preacher corrected their innocent mind with torture and homicide, then resurrection.
Luckily my kids respect but over look other peoples religious beliefs, otherwise they would have had nightmares over a Easter egg hunt.
However, my son did have questions about stoning people to death and how that was wrong.
I never liked Peeps before yesterday when my Mother In Law brought over some Sour Watermelon ones. They were delicious, I am gonna try a stale one in a few minutes!
I don’t like to eat peeps but if you like them, you should check out the Washington Post’s annual peep diorama contest. It’s amazing what can be done with them and how much time and imagination people put into these projects.
Why do Peeps disappear in the summer? No Peeps from Easter til Halloween? Is this some religious symbol? Jesus leaves and so do Peeps. Are summer Peeps a sin? Thou shalt not eateth a Peep until the Zombies appear! Since they are basically marshmallows, wouldn’t it be fun to roast little chicks and bunnies over a campfire?
The three days thing… Because that would mean company CEO/Scrooges would have to give people Monday off. Canada (among others) actually does have “Easter Monday”.
Jerry’s post obviously refers to the most extraordinary historical claim of Christianity, the Passion and Resurrection: and for that, as we know, you need extraordinary evidence.
Where is it artistically represented? In the Stations of the Cross.
Who filmed the ‘Stations…’? Mel Gibson. ‘The Passion of the Christ’. What was the then Pope’s verdict? “It is as it was.”
This is my bullet-pointy analysis of it, based on a horizontal analysis of the Gospels, on which the film is allegedly based.
Let’s take the Via Dolorosa, step by step.
1. Jesus is condemned to death – when? Matthew, Mark and Luke disagree with John.
2. Jesus carries his cross – not according to M, M and L. Only according to John.
3. Jesus falls the first time – not in the Gospels.
4. Jesus meets his mother – again, not in the Gospels.
5. Simon of Cyrene helps Jesus carry the cross – not according to John. Only in M, M and L – and Simon is the carrier, not Jesus.
6. Veronica wipes Jesus’ face – again, not in the Gospels.
7. Jesus falls a second time – not in the Gospels.
8. Jesus meets the women of Jerusalem – only in Luke.
9. Jesus falls a third time – not in the Gospels.
10. Jesus is stripped of his garments – when? After the crucifixion as in Matthew? Or somehow and, quite incomprehensibly, as Jesus is on the cross as in the other 3?
11. Jesus is nailed to the cross – only in John was he nailed. M, M and L don’t mention nails.
12. Jesus dies on the cross – what was his last utterance? No agreement.
13. Jesus is taken down from the cross – by whom? All 4 agree on Joseph of Aramithaea.
14. Jesus is laid in the tomb – who was present? Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, as in Matthew? MM and Mary mother of Jesus, as in Mark? The women of Galilee as in Luke? Or Nicodemus as in John?
The Gospels only agree on 1 Station. Extraordinary.
What is extraordinary about this evidence is its extraordinary unreliability.
Slaínte.
I guess the Friday celebration is a matter of convenience, in Czech republic we have a public holiday on Easter Monday and as far as I know it is the most important of the Easter holidays.
Easter is on a Monday. Easter Monday. It became the convention to have the main religious celebration on the Sunday, as sunday was already designated a holy day by the church & that became the practice.
As it is unlikely that a person fitting Jesus’s description (sorry don’t know his ‘real’ name) ever existed I find it slightly crazy that theists and atheist still can’t agree in which year or on what day this fictitious event took place.
You would think if it had happened that there would be a record of this event somewhere to clear things up.
Having a whip round for a scourging?
If you’re a believer, I will ask you, before posting again, to give us the evidence why you believe in God, and why, if you adhere to a specific faith, you think it’s the right one.
Thanks for making me take a moment to re-examine why I believe what I do! It’s too complex to go into detail here, but briefly I will say that I originally came to believe in God because the Big Bang didn’t make sense to me without the involvement of a Creator. Ultimately it’s a matter of faith though – I don’t think science will ever be able to prove or disprove the existence of God.
Secondly, I’ll admit that, despite the fact that I believe in evolution, I am a Christian. I believe that God works through evolution. If you presuppose the existence of God, it’s not really so crazy to believe that Jesus rose from the dead — God can do anything.
So, argument from incredulity. Even so, why believe in the Christian God, then, rather than any other potential demiurge?
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Sent from my iPhone. Please excuse all creative spellings.
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Or even semi-hemi-demiurge ala John Barth?
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Sent from my iPhone. Please excuse all creative spellings.
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Good question. For me, Christianity just makes sense. I love the idea of a God who is so in love with creation that he was willing to come to earth in human form, be born in a barn, be rejected by his people and be tortured and executed in the most inhumane way possible as an atonement for our sins. It’s really a breathtakingly beautiful picture of love. And what is God if not love?
*What is God if not love?*
Well, quite. Theodicy, anyone?
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The problem is that humans have free will and choose to commit evil acts. That’s why evil exists in our world.
Well, first, who is that is responsible for that? 😉
And, second, there is more evil in the world than that done by humans. One small example, slightly misquoting Sir David Attenborough: ‘You ought to think of … well, think of a parasitic worm that lives only in the eyeballs of human beings, boring its way through them, in West Africa, for example, where it’s common, turning people blind. So if you say, “I believe that God designed and created and brought into existence every single species that exists,” then you’ve also got to say, “Well, he, at some stage, decided to bring into existence a worm that’s going to turn people blind.” Now, I find that very difficult to reconcile with notions about a *loving* God.
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Yes — good point. And it is especially hard to reconcile a loving God when one is faced with personal tragedies, as we inevitably all are — a lost pregnancy, a cancer diagnosis, etcetera. I do understand where you are coming from. We all have to find our own answers.
We do. And the correct answer is, there is no loving God.
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…and, again, we know this because Jesus never calls 9-1-1. Never. Not even to warn of an impending tsunmi; not even after one of his own priests has raped his umpteenth child.
Yes, love gods are often fertility symbols. But even the most depraved of the love gods doesn’t sit idly by whilst his own priests rape children. Repeatedly. For centuries.
A true love god would have put a stop to that shit even before it happened. Priapus, for example, would have withheld his blessing; the priest wouldn’t have gotten it up; and that would have been the end of it — save, of course, for the expulsion of the priest, the shaming, and whatever else.
In this day and age, insisting that there really is a real love god is every bit as absurd as insisting that Helios really does draw the Sun in his chariot across the dome of the firmament.
b&
Sorry, but “free will” merely gives a name to the incompetence and / or malevolence of the gods.
There are two questions that you, as a Christian, will unquestionably be absolutely incapable of satisfactorily answering, even to yourself; both demonstrate rather emphatically the true scope and nature of what’s called, “The Problem of Evil.”
First, is there free will in Heaven?
If so, it’s obviously possible for there to be both free will and perfect good, so the excuse doesn’t wash. If not, then free will obviously isn’t something worth having in the first place; again, the excuse doesn’t wash. (Or, of course, there’s evil in Heaven, in which case what’s the point of Heaven?)
Second, and much more viscerally: why does Jesus never call 9-1-1?
Even a young child with a mobile phone has both the physical ability and moral integrity to call 9-1-1 when something bad happens. Is Jesus not aware that there’s an ancient and ongoing tradition of priests, his official representatives on Earth, brutally raping children in his name? How does that square with claims of omniscience? Is he incapable of acquiring a cellphone and finding an active cell tower? If so, how does that square with claims of miracles, let alone omnipotence? If he’s aware and able, what excuses his silence? Any human in such a position would be considered an accomplice almost as evil as the rapist. And judgement and punishment after death doesn’t work; we all know that justice delayed is justice denied…and, more to the point, these are serial rapists. A simple call to 9-1-1 after the first rape would certainly save dozens, if not hundreds, of children from facing similar torture. And calling 9-1-1, especially after the fact, can in no way be seen as depriving anybody of “free will.” Indeed, it’s the moral (and legal) imperative of every competent citizen to do so.
“Free will” is, superficially, a pleasant-sounding excuse for the palpable inattention of the gods…but, as I noted above, it’s merely describing why they’re unable to do diddly-squat or why they don’t give a damn. And, sadly, Christianity as an institution has no excuse for ignorance in this matter; Epicurus, centuries before the invention of Christianity, observed that there is overwhelming empirical evidence that there just simply aren’t any powerful moral agents with the best interests of humanity at heart.
Hell, there aren’t even any weak barely-civilized agents who’re mildly fond of some small portion humanity — even that much we would observe the effects of, and we don’t.
So it’s up to us. You can’t rely on your gods to set things right, and you certainly can’t rely upon them to tell you how to live their life. Even if they weren’t figments of your imagination, they demonstrate their abject lack of qualifications to do so every time the newscaster reads through the police blotter on the evening news and only humans were involved in trying to set things right.
And love? Puh-leeze. Nobody with love in his heart could be specifically aware of the tragedies happening all the time and not even bother to call 9-1-1 at least once in a while.
Cheers,
b&
I’ll assume that you’re an honest person, UrsulaMarie, and willing to engage in rational debate. Ant deals with theodicy below and I suspect he has much more.
Your point about God coming to earth in human form is fundamentally based on the idea that scripture is the inspired word of God. Because you trust the veracity of the Gospels. That proposition occurs once in the New Testament, in 2 Timothy 3:16: but that is a forgery. Scholars agree that St. Paul did not write it. Perhaps God condones fraud, but those are not my ethics and, I assume, not yours. In that case, you find yourself in the unfortunate position of having superior morals to those of God.
Only Luke has Jesus born in a barn: why doesn’t Matthew, who also has a nativity story, mention that? Why does Luke think that Jesus was Galilean, yet Matthew thinks he was Judaean? Remember, this is the word of God we’re talking about.
With regard to the Passion, why can’t the 4 evangelists agree on what really happened? Let’s take the Stations of the Cross and contrast what the Gospels say about them.
1. Jesus is condemned to death – when? Matthew, Mark and Luke disagree with John.
2. Jesus carries his cross – not according to M, M and L. Only according to John.
3. Jesus falls the first time – not in the Gospels.
4. Jesus meets his mother – again, not in the Gospels.
5. Simon of Cyrene helps Jesus carry the cross – not according to John. Only in M, M and L – and Simon is the carrier, not Jesus.
6. Veronica wipes Jesus’ face – again, not in the Gospels.
7. Jesus falls a second time – not in the Gospels.
8. Jesus meets the women of Jerusalem – only in Luke.
9. Jesus falls a third time – not in the Gospels.
10. Jesus is stripped of his garments – when? After the crucifixion as in Matthew? Or somehow and, quite incomprehensibly, as Jesus is on the cross as in the other 3?
11. Jesus is nailed to the cross – only in John was he nailed. M, M and L don’t mention nails.
12. Jesus dies on the cross – what was his last utterance? No agreement.
13. Jesus is taken down from the cross – by whom? All 4 agree on Joseph of Aramithaea.
14. Jesus is laid in the tomb – who was present? Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, as in Matthew? MM and Mary mother of Jesus, as in Mark? The women of Galilee as in Luke? Or Nicodemus as in John?
To sum up, the popular story of the Passion corresponds to 1 detail from the Gospels, the man who took Jesus down from the cross. It agrees on no other aspect: historical Christianity demonstrably accretes legends onto the Gospels (e.g. Veronica). It makes things up about the central historical claim of Christianity – the Passion and Resurrection – which enables it to differentiate itself from other religions. Can you really trust your founding sources and later Christian commentators?
Your interpretation of the meaning of Christ’s death represents a fusing of the 4 Gospels: the atonement of sins idea gained credence in the later 2nd century when the Christians, quite a-historically, merged the differing theological interpretations of Christ into the Diatessaron. From which we get the idea that Jesus was born in a barn, which only one Evangelist refers to.
These surviving Gospels were written by men, mere men, who did not know that they were writing scripture: they did not anticipate, perhaps with the exception of St. John, that future generations would view their scribblings as the word of God.
Perhaps if you knew that the common NT word ‘faith’ is more accurately translated as ‘trust’ you might feel differently about God. Do you trust that Australia exists in the same way that you have faith in God?
Finally, consider Joyce’s aphorism. Theology: a subject without an object.
Slaínte.
+1
It’s also very well worth noting that there is absolutely not even the slightest hint of a mention of Jesus or any of the very amazing (and very public) spectacles surrounding him in the very extensive contemporary and near-contemporary literature; that the first Christian apologists, especially Justin Martyr, defended the faith by protesting that the pagans had no right to laugh at Christians because Jesus was just like all the pagan demigods (and in very explicit detail, to, down to the virgin birth and the Word of John 1:1 and the Eucharist); and that the earliest mentions (much later) by pagans of Christianity universally dismissed them as some lunatic nutjob cult very comparable to modern perceptions of the Raelians or Jim Jones.
Or, more succinctly, that Christianity is very clearly and unquestionably a made-up religion with made-up gods — just like all the other religions and their gods.
Cheers,
b&
That’s actually not the case. See this lecture by Alex Rosenberg on how Darwin and the Second Law of Thermodynamics really are proof (as much as science ever proves anything) that there are no gods, or at least no Abrahamic gods:
Cheers,
b&
I suppose some of those could make for gaming props … but …
To clarify I meant that in response to Ant’s comment about evil not only being the result of human actions. I do not agree that Christianity is a made up religion with a made up God — but I don’t expect anything I say to change anyone’s beliefs.
Then, clearly, you find your position quite literally unbelievable.
Isn’t it at least a bit arrogant to think that you’re in possession of some secret truth that really is real but nobody else is capable of buying into? If not foolish, or even outright paranoid?
If somebody didn’t believe that the Earth is (roughly) spherical, I fully expect that, unless that person is crazy, I would be capable of convincing the person of the Earth’s true geometry, given adequate resources.
Yet you’re discussing something far more fundamental and universal than the shape of the Earth…but you don’t think there’s any way to convince people your theory is true?
If you really don’t think you can convince anybody else, I’m going to suggest that you still haven’t convinced yourself yet, either. You like the idea of believing, and so you pretend to believe…but even you have to admit to yourself that it’s all nonsense.
Cheers,
b&