Well, I guess I’ve heard rumors about this stuff, but deliberately kept myself ignorant just because it’s one more area of lunacy that would bring me tsouris. But it’s Friday, and there are cute animals in store.
According to Mother Jones magazine, W. is speaking at a fundraiser for the Messianic Jewish Bible Institute (MJBI), a group that, by trying to convert Jews to Christians, thinks it can hasten the End Times:
Next week, former President George W. Bush is scheduled to keynote a fundraiser in Irving, Texas, for the Messianic Jewish Bible Institute, a group that trains people in the United States, Israel, and around the world to convince Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah. The organization’s goal: to “restore” Israel and the Jews and bring about about the second coming of Christ.
Jewish organizations like the Anti-Defamation League, as well as various rabbis (including David Wolpe) are outraged, and rightly so. Not only is the former president engaging in religious lunacy, but he’s endorsing a crazy organization that’s based on a lie: that you can be Jewish and see Jesus as the Messiah. I never got that schtick (the “Jews for Jesus” were the same, something that always struck me as oxmoronic, like “Vegetarians for Steak”). It’s also based on the idiocy that when the Jews all accept Jesus, said Messiah will return, the trumps will blow, and the good folk will all get raptured. An ex-President should know better, but of course this is W.
And oy gewalt; get a load of this:
Based in Dallas, the MJBI claims that it acts like the Apostle Paul in helping to “educate Christians in their role to provoke the Jewish people to jealousy and thus save some of them (Romans 11:11-14).” It has Bible schools in 12 countries, an online school of “Messianic theology,” and programs to train Messianic rabbis and pastors. Its logos feature a star of David and a menorah, and its website promotes the weekly Torah portion, a “Yiddish Mama’s Kitchen,” and links to purchase Judaica and books, such as Christ in the Old Testament. The nonprofit organization brought in approximately $1.2 million in revenue in 2011, the last year for which records are available.
As a cultural Jew, I am deeply offended, too. Really, goys promoting a “Yiddish Mama’s Kitchen”?? Do they put mayo on the corned beef?
But Bush is in distinguished company:
At the November 14 event, which will be held at the Irving Convention Center, Bush will discuss his White House experiences, according to promotional materials. Bush, the group says, will “share his passion for setting people free.” Last year, Glenn Beck was the star of the group’s fundraiser, which was held at Cowboys Stadium in Arlington, Texas.
This year’s event is designed to bring in funds for the group’s proselytizing operations. And the former president is helping out with more than just speech-making. The most expensive of the ticket packages, which range from $100 to $100,000, includes 20 invitations to a VIP reception and photo opportunity with Bush, 10 signed copies of Bush’s book Decision Points, and passes to tour the George W. Bush Presidential Library and Museum.
It’s almost funny in places (my emphasis):
At last year’s MJBI fundraiser, Beck received a “Defender of Israel” award. During Beck’s time as host of his Fox News program (which ended in 2011), hundreds of Jewish leaders denounced his on-air rhetoric as anti-Semitic—particularly his repeated invocation of Nazis and the Holocaust to demonize political adversaries and his accusation that George Soros is a “puppet master” who collaborated with the Nazis. “One of the reasons why I love Israel so much is I’m a guy who’s for the underdog,” Beck told the audience. “I’m a Mormon, which is kind of the Jew of the Christian world.”
. . . At last year’s event, members of the MJBI’s board of directors explained the organization’s mission of converting Jews to an audience of hundreds who were seated on a professional football field, wearing formal clothes, and eating pork barbecue.
The organizers refused to answer the question of whether Bush will get a speaking fee, but you know he’s going to pull in at least a hundred grand for this. Mother Jones also gave this update, showing that they’d clearly embarrassed the MJBI:
Update (11/8/13): After this story published, the Messianic Jewish Bible Institute removed references to George W. Bush’s scheduled appearance from its website. But Freddy Ford, a spokesman for the former president, told Mother Jones on Friday afternoon that Bush’s plans “haven’t changed,” and he will appear at the event.
Jesus H. Christ in a chicken basket! (Or should I say in a bucket of ribs?)
h/t: Robert
…how nutso…..
Aren’t Jews the Jews of the Christian world?
LOL!
This is just an example of why W has the nickname Dumbya. The man is too stupid to be evil. Cheney (the man who doesn’t care to know about the donor of his new heart) did those chores for him.
And, of course, low IQ does not disqualify one from becoming president. This is Sarah Palin’s ace in the hole.
Actually, Dubya has an IQ of 127, which is well above average. Dubya isn’t dumb, he is ill informed and intellectually lazy.
His father probably paid to have the IQ test rig also. The man barely got through Yale and it was only because of his family influence.
It is my information that he did much better at the Harvard School of Business where he actually buckled down and studied. As for alleged rigging of IQ tests, present some evidence. An assertion presented without evidence can be disregarded without evidence.
IQ of 127? Obviously IQ tests are totally worthless. And that’s my assertion without evidence and I’ll disregard it and Bush also.
One of Bush’s professors remembers differently – http://www.salon.com/2004/09/16/tsurumi/
Thank you lezurk. I always imagined W as a cut-up sitting in the last row and throwing spit balls with that stupid smirk on his face. It turns out that’s not so far-fetched according to the professor of your linked article.
Probably more important is that he is driven by ideology. His “thinking” is rigid, not rigorous.
Somebody is setting themselves up for a huge disapointment.
I’ll get the popcorn.
Personally, I’m just fervently hoping Jeebus doesn’t come riding on a mushroom cloud.
Aye, this is where the term “self-fulfilling prophecy” sadly gets relevant.
Duck and cover my fellow heathens!
+ 1
Indeed. I’ve been terrified ever since my evangelical friends started taking notice of the modern state of Israel. It’s one of the more pressing reasons to keep them out of political power.
Are they somehow involved in red calf breeding and herd management?
Yeah, some of them went Camping ( pun intended ), but apparently there’s still quite a few of them left.
I can’t wait to the afterparty, though.
G.W. and Reza will solve all problems on the Gaza Strip. Of this, you can be assured.
1) Evangelical Christians trying to evangelize Jews (or anyone else) for Christ.
2) Atheists trying to convince Jews (or anyone else) that YHWH is a myth.
I really don’t see why (1) is bad, but (2) is good, from the perspective of secularism.
Truth matters regardless of a comforting lie.
How much do you value reality?
Secularism allows religious freedom for everyone without interference (or support) from the state. Religious freedom means, among other things, that people are allowed to try to persuade other people to adopt their worldview.
Remember freedom of religion also includes freedom from religion.
If you preach, I object.
I guess if you don’t care about whether something is true or not there may be little difference.
It may also make little difference if you are ignorant or just don’t care about the two thousand year history of relations between Christians and Jews.
In addition to what the others said, there is some historical context to consider. For centuries, Christians in Europe urged Jews to convert to Christianity, and those Jews who refused got their property confiscated and themselves exiled from their homes.
What has this to do with the tradition of maximal religious freedom that the American founders put in place, and which secularists uphold to this day?
I have not met many Jews, but I have yet to meet one that believes in YHWH. Granted most that I know are physicists…good, clever, intense people; nothing to convert there.
I grew up Jewish in the NY suburbs and my grandparents lived in Brooklyn. At least half of all Jews I know from the baby boom generation on are either atheist or completely non-religious. Even my in-laws who were in concentration camps during WW II are no longer observant.
I won’t speak for others, but the thing that concerns me about this isn’t so much the conversion attempt; you’re right, almost all religions do that.
My concern is more along the lines of “holy crap, would you look at the ridiculous baloney with which a former president and other highly influential people in this country are involved!”
“I really don’t see why (1) is bad, but (2) is good, from the perspective of secularism.”
Goddists try to subvert secularism (via legislation, e.g.) wherever possible, on the basis of the teachings of their myth-beings. That is bad for secularism.
Is that what the Messianic Jews are doing?
For starters, what is the age of the Earth? What is the basis for your answer?
Among other things, if I try to convince someone that there are no gods, my goal is not to hasten the end of the world. They aren’t just evangelizing: they are evangelizing because they think it will cause Armageddon.
Don’t let them immanentize the eschaton! (this is your obscure science fiction reference of the day)
Well, and there is that little matter as well.
😉
“Jesus H. Christ in a chicken basket! (Or should I say in a bucket of ribs?)”
Or, Jesus H. Christ on a popsicle stick (Chevy Chase in the movie Fletch)–or, my favorite, Jumpin’ Jesus on a Pogo Stick (George in Fallout New Vegas)
For some unknown reason, Christ on a corn cob popped into my head while reading the post. Only 1300 results in a Google search. (soon to be 1301 after I post this).
Christ on a corn cob I could eat some pizza with bacon and garlic right now!
( 1302 )
My favorite: Jesus H. Tap Dancing Christ.
I’m surprised nobody’d yet mentioned Jesus Tittyfucking Christ….
b&
Reminds me of the Onion cartoon:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/
(definitely not for the weak)
He wishes… 😉
I never understood this convert the Jews thing. If you converted all the Jews, how could the Jews be in power – they’d just be Christians then. I think it’s some sort of trick the Abrahamic god is pulling; you know like he does. Like when he killed everybody in a flood – like that.
And that under dog statement! I can’t wait to call my friend in Israel an underdog. 😀
Maybe it’s a trick designed to make everyone christian and then when he doesn’t show up at the end nobody cares because, tadaa… everyone’s christian.
Wow, that has a certain evil genius kind of ring to it. But how could those sweet, lovable Christians have come up with it? Oh, wait….
I never understood how Christians could be mad a Jews for supposedly killing Jesus, when the whole point of their religion is that Jesus was supposed to, and had to, die “for their sins.” They should be thanking the Jews (Romans, actually) for killing Jesus. But I guess this is what happens when you try to make sense out of a religion.
Also, this whole post makes me think of Kinky Friedman singing “They ain’t making Jews like Jesus anymore.”
I don’t disagree with you that Christian antipathy toward all the crucifixion actors, with the obvious exception of the star of the play, is impossible to understand. Instead of accepting that Judas, Herod, and Pilate faithfully followed the Script (at no small personal cost, particularly Judas), Christians vilify the three as if they actually had some choice in the matter. But those 3 get off lucky, particularly since the story just fiction anyway.
Not so for the descendants of the inhabitants of the play’s setting.
Some Christian’s went way on past “mad” at this group, and are still there. Not only has there always been this insane yearning for a bloody cataclysm that kills every last person in the Levant who refuses to convert to their “faith” ignorance, there is also that whole Blood Libel thing that has murdered millions at one time or another, ebbing and flowing ever since it was thunk up back in the Middle Ages:
Web Link: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0003_0_03147.html
Borges has a nice short story, Three Versions of Judas, that makes this point visa vis Judas.
vis a vis
According to Islam belief, Yeshua ben Yusef of Nazareth wasn’t executed at all. The Islamic belief is that Judas Iscariot was the man who was executed and Yeshua was ordered by Pilate to get out of Dodge and don’t come back. Some Islamic scholars believe that he hied himself off to Damascus, where, presumably he eventually died a natural death.
I think it isn’t exactly a “convert the Jews thing”. Rather I think the idea is that one is supposed to get “Oh, yeah, I/we was/were wrong, but I do have a part to play, so …”
I think some of it may also be playing up the idea that Judaism is sometimes viewed as an ethnicity.
Will no one think of the poor innocent atheist cowboy boots being exposed to the mishegas at this event?!
I don’t understand why “Jews for Jesus” would be oxymoronic like “vegetarians for steak”. Jesus was a Jew, his disciples were Jews, and today there are Christian Jews…
Christianity is the explicit rejection of Judaism and has been virulently anti-Semitic from the get-go. That whole “brood of vipers” bit? The withering of the fig tree (which was and remains a symbol of Torah study)? The reprehensible and uncivilized behavior of the Sanhedrin at the Trial (one of the most glaring anti-historical bits in the Gospel)?
Claiming you can be a Christian and a Jew is like claiming you can be a vegan carnivore because you put lettuce, onion, and tomatoes on your bacon cheeseburger. Might as well go whole-hog and claim that you can be a married bachelor because all married men were once bachelors….
Cheers,
b&
“Might as well go whole-hog…”
I don’t think that is kosher.😉
It would depend on the rabbi….
b&
P.S. I joke, but not really! b&
Ha ha! I think you’re right!
“Christianity is the explicit rejection of Judaism and has been virulently anti-Semitic from the get-go”
From the get-go? We really know very little about the first seventy years of Christianity. We only know what the ‘winners’ left us.
The tale of the Sanhedrin at the trial is just one piece of evidence that the people who composed it were far removed in time and custom from the supposed events.
“We really know very little about the first seventy years of Christianity”
That is because that period is fiction, concocted later.
Erm…Christianity is a second century phenomenon. Late first century at the earliest, but only if you squint really hard and maybe stick your fingers in your ears.
So…yeah. Right from the get-go.
b&
“Christianity is the explicit rejection of Judaism and has been virulently anti-Semitic from the get-go.”
Ehhh…it kinda depends on how you define things. Originally, Christianity was one of many small sects of Judaism, each one of which followed some interpretation of the Mosaic laws. The real point of contention between Christians and more main-stream Jews was that the Christians claimed the Messiah had already come and his name is Jesus. ‘Christos’ is Greek for ‘the annointed one’ just as ‘Messiah’ is Hebrew for ‘the annointed one’.
Early on, the Christian sect only tried to convert other Jews, and when St. Paul wanted to convert gentiles, there was a big disagreement over whether or not the gentiles had to first become Jews (and get circumcised) or not.
There is no evidence for Christianity as a Jewish sect.
At the most, it might have some origins in Helenistic Judaism; at the least, its philosophy is essentially a wholesale adoption of that of Philo…but Philo’s big contribution to Jewish philosophy was the reconciliation of Judaism with Pagan beliefs about the Logos and the like.
All the Gospels are written in educated Greek by Greek authors and addressed to a Greek audience, and all the stories are all ones that all Greeks would recognize as ones that Greek parents had told to Greek children for about as long as Greeks have been Greek.
Further, the setting of a decidedly Pagan hero as a from-within revolutionary who overthrows the corrupt non-Pagan establishment is itself a very Pagan archetype. Orpheus, after all, was a Thracian…and, yet, he faced an almost-identical Trial as Jesus did, ever bit the travesty of injustice. And, oh-by-the-way, Orpheus also conquered death, was driven by love to fight for the salvation of souls (well, at least one), and plays the harp in the afterlife.
Jesus is no more Jewish than Orpheus is Thracian. It’s just a rhetorical trick to paint the Jews and Thracians as brutes and to provide the true Pagan ideal as the model of righteousness the people in the client state should follow.
Cheers,
b&
I’m not referring to the Gospels. I’m referring to Paul’s letters where he goes on at length about the whole ‘circumcise or not’ issue. There absolutely was a cohort among the early Christians that felt only Jews could become Christians.
The classical apologetic assumption with Paul’s letters is that the recipients of his letters are well-established Christian enclaves who were composed either of Jesus’s actual disciples or people converted personally by said disciples. And yet, there’s no evidence of any of that.
It makes a lot more sense if one instead sees Paul as converting Jews, or as his Christian audience being Pagans playing play-pretend as Jews.
The early dating for the Pauline epistles is also problematic. They likely pre-date the Gospels, but not necessarily; there’s no reason Paul can’t be a contemporary from a rival sect that didn’t go for the Gospels we’re familiar with. Paul could also have self-censored in order to preserve the secrecy of the cult. Regardless, the standard apologetic dates pushing them into the first half of the first century are almost certainly specious.
Cheers,
b&
It’s a story. In the story, Christianity was a jewish sect. There is no way to read it otherwise. In reality, who the heck knows. No one. But reality plays no part in religious interpretation because for the religious the story is real. So to ask what Christians are thinking when they try to convert Jews, it’s senseless to talk about the “reality” behind the stories, because only the stories themselves matter to Christians.
If someone believed Harry Potter was true, and they were going around looking for Muggle born wizards to recruit, they’d be foolish, but what they are doing would make perfect sense given the crazy premise that they take the story as real, which is the only way to understand the religious.
Again the key to understanding the Jewishness of Jesus is to compare him with Orpheus.
Both were superficially Jewish and Thracian, respectively. And yet both stood as purely Hellenistic idealizations in stark contrast to the comic book villain mischaracterizations of their ostensible races.
Imagine a fictional story in which a young black child grows up in Harlem, but everything about him save his skin color is pure Aryan, and every single black person for miles around was a crack-smoking thug and / or whore. Now, let’s say that this story was written in German in Germany in the 40s. Would you still say this “hero” is somehow “really” black?
Cheers,
b&
What does it mean to be “pure Aryan” in this analogy? I’m having a hard time seeing what that would be except for something that is itself imaginary.
What does, “Judaism and all it stands for”, from another comment, mean that Christianity can be opposed to it? Is a pork-eating Jew oxymoronic? Sounds like it, doesn’t it. But what is the truth of the matter. Is a (religious) Jew who doesn’t sacrifice animals at a temple oxymoronic? How about a religious Jew who thinks that the Mishnah has gone off the rails and should be discarded? There is no truth to the matter to appeal to. These are just questions about what certain groups of people believe about their religion. Many Christians don’t regard LDS as Christian, LDS claim they are. Who decides? I’d think asking an atheist to adjudicate the dispute would be a non-starter, but judging from some of the responses here, maybe not.
These are fictions, all around. Whatever the nature or intent of the authors, the fictions go on without them. It’s strikes me as silly say that no follower of Dumbledore could ever come to think that Dumbledore was a secret death eater, so that it’s offensive for a Dumbledoreite to convert to Death Eaterism and claim to be both a follower of Dumbledore and a Death Eater. What? It’s make believe. It is whatever you want it to be. Same goes for the black Aryan, whatever the hell that is supposed to be. If you’re arguing that the story was originally racist in intent, OK, maybe it was. So? If some modern black guy reads that story and wants to see it as a story about how God’s chosen people, the black-of-skin, went sour, but then a few of them decided to reform and to save the white-of-skin while they were at it, it might be a bad story, it might be a story that originally had some racist intent, but you can’t tell the guy his interpretation of this bit of fiction is wrong because there is no ground truth to fiction.
All of that said, it’s gauche for Christians to try to convert Jews because of the persecution of Jews at Christian hands, just as it’s a bit gauche for Christians to try to convert Native American’s to Christianity for the same reason. But to say that it doesn’t make sense for a Native American to claim to be both a Native American, or even to follow Native American spiritual practices, AND be a Christian, just seems to be an empty statement about an empty topic. It makes whatever sense they want it to because it’s a fairy tale.
Not sure why you replaced “Jesus” with Christianity”. It was precisely “Jews for Jesus”, not “Jews for Christianity”. There were Jews for Jesus in the past, there are Jews for Jesus now, so no need to force “oxymoron” on top of this – unless you blame Jesus for what Jews have suffered terribly.
And not sure why you say Christianity is the explicit rejection of Judaism?
As for claiming that to be a Christian and a Jew is like being a vegan carnivore, you’re wrong. There are probably no carnivore vegans, but there are Christian Jews.
If you’re trying to suggest that one can worship Jesus and not be a Christian, I’m afraid you’re using definitions of the terms that nobody else I know would recognize. And I’ve already made clear why Christianity is the rejection of Judaism: its foundational texts have as their hero a virulently anti-Semitic character who literally and figuratively and in the most emphatic ways possible explicitly rejects Judaism and all it stands for.
Cheers,
b&
Of course one can follow Jesus and not “be a Christian” in today’s sense. His first disciples were exactly that.
Even I have encountered (while I was a Christian) a few people who were/are Jewish, follow/worship Jesus, and dismiss Christianity. Some are trinitarian, some are unitarian, etc.
As to anti-semitic texts, you’re probably referring to the 4th gospel, and that’s hardly “the texts” of Christianity. There are texts that embrace Jewishness, affirm the Torah, etc.
But in any case, being anti-semitic is hardly a rejection of Judaism in itself. There are clearly anti-semitic religious Jews who are fanatically embrace Judaism. Your assertion is basically a non-sequitur.
I find the whole concept of “follow Jesus” amorphous and ambiguous enough to be nearly useless. Could any such self-attribution be more subjective?
It doesn’t matter, they say they do, so they do, in whatever sesnse they mean it. The same can be said about being a “Christian”.
David wrote, “today there are Christian Jews…”
It sounds absurd, but this is the problem with the word “Jew” being used to identify both members of a religion and members of a particular ethnicity. Someone may be ethnically Jewish and adhere to a Christian religion – technically, therefore, a Christian Jew. Similar in kind to an atheist Jew. If one can be an atheist Jew (and one certainly can), then one can be a Christian Jew.
This is why when people ask me if I am Jewish I reply with either “sort of” or “how do you mean?” If they are asking about ethnicity, the answer is yes (half, to be precise). If they are asking about my religion, the answer is no.
Regarding atheist Jews:
http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2011/10/20/israel-allows-formal-status-as-secular-jew/
I think it’s a tricky question because many people think of jews as a race. One thing that puzzled me for a while was that you seldom hear of black jews and I still don’t get the notion that you can’t be a true jew unless your mother is jewish.
It’s a blur of mixed definitions.
There are black Jews:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_African_diaspora
I know, but thanks.
Sammy Davis Jr.
I understand why people say so. For much of it’s history Christians have persecuted Jews, quite horribly, and many Christians have drawn the weird view of Jews as some Other who are the Christ killers and so on. These views persist among many even today too. Given that backdrop, I am unsurprised that people are bothered by the idea of Jews for Jesus. It can seem grotesque given that historical background.
On the other hand it is not hard to see how Christians today could read the New Testament and come away with the feeling that Christianity is just an expanded sect of Judiasm. As you note, ALL of the first Christians (in the text as a story at least, in reality who knows) were Jews… Jesus, the apostles, everyone. As the story reads, it was only when Paul came and said, “Hey, you know, Gentiles can be Christians too” that it ceased to be an exclusively Jewish sect. And, in the story, this was apparently controversial since many of the Jewish Christians, which until then was all of them, seemed to want to make the new Gentile Christians adhere to all the Jewish rules (like circumcision… which was a deal breaker for many I’m sure). Quite a lot of ink is spilled over the question of how Jewish the new Gentile Christians would have to be in order to gain admission into the Christian sect. The Christian group I was raised in took it as given that the Jewish religion was the one true religion in the world and that Christianity was not a break from Judaism but merely the next step. The harsh words leveled at the Pharisees(brood of Vipers, etc.) were aimed, we were taught and the text can easily be read, as criticism of the hypocrisy of a class of religious leaders who had focused on the letter of the law to the extent of ignoring it’s spirit.
So, while I sympathize with the idea that the historically vile treatment of Jews by many Christians justifies a fair bit of horror at the thought of converting Jews to Christianity, and can see how you could read the New Testament as anti-Jewish, I really can’t see how anyone could read the New Testament and find it incomprehensible that Christians could think that there is nothing oxymoronic about the idea of a Christian Jew, even in the religious sense.
It’s not. It’s ridiculous because it’s based on fiction, but reading the fiction as reality, as Christians sometimes try to do (they are in inconsistent lot, so I wouldn’t say always), the idea that Christianity is a Jewish sect is written right into the (probably fictional) text. I really can’t understand Ben here. First, there is no monolithic “everything Judiasm stands for” to talk about Christians rejecting, any more than there is a monolithic Christianity one can talk about that someone else rejects. Why, when I lived in Houston there were three different flavors of Synagogues within walking distance of my house alone. And his dismissal of all the ink spilled in the New Testament over how Jewish a Gentile could be before they were allowed to join the Jewish cult of Christians steps completely outside the story, which is fine if you’re trying to highlight that Christianity is make believe, but meaningless if you’re trying to understand how a Christian reading the New Testament might think of Christianity relative to Judiasm. It’s like arguing Herminone wasn’t muggle born because there aren’t really any wizards.
Comment didn’t quite land in the right place… oh well.
Well, at least they understand the concept of, “chutzpah!”
I’m surprised nobody told them that it’s not generally considered an effective technique to use in making friends and influencing people….
b&
Some messianic nuts think that the second coming will occur when the Third Temple is built Jerusalem, and that won’t happen until a red heifer is born in Israel. There is an outfit in Nebraska that raises and ships red heifers to Israel to speed up this process. Maybe GW is going to offer to raise red heifers on his ranch to ship to Israel.
And these people are allowed to drive cars, and vote.
“Welcome to our fundamentalist church. Please check your brain at the door.”
When I worked in mid-town Manhatten there were often Jews for Jesus near the Port Authority bus station trying to stuff their literature in your hand. I always said, politely, “No thanks, I’m an athiest for Moses”.
And considering how accurate Wya was about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, I don’t think we need to worry about the end times bullshit…
But–considering how much damage was done in the name of that inaccuracy…
Seriously now, can anyone doubt that this man is mentally impaired?
He needs treatment, badly. I doubt, however, that an effective treatment has been invented for his level of Moranacy.
Oh, but he has an IQ of 127. (Or so someone posted earlier).
I think that says something about the validity of IQ tests…
I thought he’d done quite enough already to screw up life on earth.
Short version:- John Hagee says…
Jews Will Make End Times Deal With The Antichrist & 9/11 Was God’s Judgment.
This RightWingWatch Page from today has two videos worth watching
Text from the page reads:-
1min 39sec RWW Youtube video uploaded today of the Evil Hagee Preaching [ranting] that atheism, among other faults he lists, “…has never healed a disease”
Well, he is right about that. Of course Christianity hasn’t either.
Neither has eating pizza, watching tv, or playing piano.
Evil, evil piano playing.
Jews are no different then any other theists, all think of themselves as superior to each other and especially non-theists. When my wife’s grandmother died we went to the funeral and burial, despite being the one who cared for and brought grocerys to her grandmother brought her milk and bread and visited to talk, wash dishes, wash clothes, cook and clean every day, I was not “allowed” to help fill in the grave after she was laid to rest. The shovel was actually taken from my hand by some flunky of some rabbi I’ve never seen before, people that never even knew who the woman was, nor ever visited her in health or sickness. Why?? Because I didn’t identify as one of “theirs”, I wasn’t “good enough” bury the woman I’ve known for years and these people had never met.
To identify as a “cultural jew” and call people “goys” or mocking them for perhaps putting “mayo on the corned beef” (something I’d never do) is wrong and just as cliquish as any theist could ever be.
Would there be such an uproar if it was Muslims he was trying to convert? All theists are bigoted against those not like them, and keep in mind Muslims don’t eat pork barbecue either, this makes one better then others how?
“To identify as a “cultural jew” and call people “goys” or mocking them for perhaps putting “mayo on the corned beef” (something I’d never do) is wrong and just as cliquish as any theist could ever be.”
No, it’s just humor, because a nonbeliever realizes such terms & practices are just stereotypes at which fun can be poked. (Well, “no mayo on corned beef” may approach religious conviction…)
Your personal example is right-on regarding religious hubris.
I prefer mustard on the corned beef myself.
That’s kosher, no? 😉
Re the scene in “Hannah and Her Sisters” where Woody Allen considers converting yo Catholicism and goes out to buy Wonder Bread and mayo….
@Diane G.
I don’t know about you but I never felt any love or laughter when in-laws and their friends referred to me under their breath.. “you know hes goyum right” or “what a disappointment to her parents, her marrying a goy”… Perpetuating that after losing the theist ties that its founded on is a disserves to atheism and what we stand for. I respect your comments ,but I feel strongly on this one, its not humorous in any sense of the word, right??? ..
I get where you’re coming from. I don’t like bigots. I think in this case though it is just humour like when my Italian friends joke with me about ketchup and say it is mangie. I think this is the context of friendly comfort Jerry is speaking in here.
But of course if you’re offended, you’re entitled to your feelings, I just think the intent is benign.
Your Italian friends call you ketchup? Their family members are sorrowful because their son married ketchup? The use of these terms, that from the beginning of time have gotten a free pass, has to end, and clearly have no place in an atheistic community… Am I wrong? Its not even heritage that being attacked here by the use of these terms… Its an attack on those of a different religion that these terms have their base and correct me if I’m wrong , but we’ve forgone those classifications long ago… Bigotry is bigotry no matter who does it. Why the free pass for it now?
No mungie as on mungie cake. They think Anglo Saxons put ketchup on everything. No one knows where the mungie slur comes from but I abhor the term mungie because I would be called that by gangs of asshole males who also called me “slut” in Italian because their parents taught them that all non Italian girls were sluts.
I think us joking about it is a way to make fun of the bigotry.
Funny that I’m a big old mix of stuff and Anglo Saxon is probably the smallest portion of everything.
Ones not as bad as the other? It somehow allows a free pass to those of one kind to use hateful terms against another? We need to see the humour in these hateful terms, no matter who they come from?
No it doesn’t… Not sure what point your trying to make here… Are you saying using derogatory terms by some is OK, but not others? My point is as atheist we should stand against this… If we don’t who will?
My point is my friends and I tease this way as a way to make fun of such bigotry. I sometimes call girlfriends bitches too. I’m sure coming from others it would be taken a lot differently than when I am joking with my girlfriends and I don’t think anyone should tell me how to use language with my friends.
@freethinkinfranklin: You must believe in magic words. If you are unable to distinguish humorous from derogatory use of language you should learn to. Life will be greatly enhanced. Intent and context make communication much more interesting.
I don’t share your passion for the issue but I agree with the principle you are advocating. A lot of language is “othering”, even when the intent is perhaps humor or something else, and no group should get a pass on this, though all groups want one.
But your relatives were somewhat more than just “cultural Jews,” no? Were they perhaps orthodox?
I’m very sorry these words were used in a way that made you feel so bad. Perhaps the history of persecution of the Jews explains the importance to them of the careful we/they distinctions that hurt you so seriously. (Which is not meant to excuse these particular people.)
Meanwhile, I remember these terms and similar ones used jocularly in a lot of Jewish authors’ books. Perhaps your in-laws do not reflect the opinions/behavior of all Jews.
So, just to be clear, Dubya believes that his Christian god, the allegedly omnipotent and omniscient creator of all things, is sitting on his hands until enough Jews get converted? That his god can’t bring about the Apocalypse until that happens? That his god is stuck until humans get their act together?
Doesn’t that make Dubya actually more powerful than his god?
“Doesn’t that make Dubya actually more powerful than his god?”
Yes, things that exist are always more powerful than superstitions.
No different than all prayer.
This thing has always puzzled me. Jesus himself was a Jew and certainly many Jews accepted him a messiah. Certain other Jews didn’t do that. What exactly was the point of difference between those who did and those who didn’t? Was it some esoteric prophecy that Jesus didn’t fulfill or some other obscure theological point or was it something more complicated? Also, is it really true that Jews are still waiting for the “real” messiah to come back? I know the Christian end times story, the rapture and tribulations etc. What exactly is the Jewish end times story? What is supposed to happen after the “real” messiah appears and what is the messiah supposed to accomplish?
It seems like being tired with the current state of the world and wishing for god to hit the reset button is a common theme in many religions. The Hindus believe that there have been 9 reincarnations (literally – Avataar in Sanskrit) of Vishnu and the 10th (Kalki) is yet to appear and in the Bhagwad Geeta Krishna (considered to be 1 of the 9 avataars of Vishnu) promises Arjuna that whenever the world is in need of him, he will appear to uproot evil.
Huh? There isn’t even agreement that the fellow existed as a local cult leader.
There is agreement, you probably just meant “complete agreement”. AFAIK, Josephus’ talk about the “tribe of Christians” (approx) is not generally (if at all) considered an interpolation.
First, Josephus wasn’t born until many years after the latest date proposed by the Christians for the Crucifixion — and Josephus didn’t write the works in question until he was an old man. He isn’t even remotely a witness to any of it.
Second, the entire Testamonium is purest fabrication, and we know who (Eusebius) fabricated it. Trying to pretend that you can read through the tea leaves of a fabrication such as that in order to reveal some hidden trace of what Josephus “really” wrote is the ultimate exercise in self-delusion.
Last…well, once you actually look at the relevant contemporary sources (which are extensive), you find no mention of Jesus; plus, everything about Jesus was transparently lifted from other Pagan demigods; plus, early Christians made exhaustive comparisons between Jesus and exactly those other Pagan demigods; plus, Pagans dismissed Christians as just another nutjob wacko cult; plus, we have records of Pagan scam artists teaching Christians pagan mysteries to include in Christianity. It hardly takes any serious analysis to add that all together and realize that the whole thing is a late fabrication, just like any other religion ever.
Cheers,
b&
Nobody said Josephus has witnessed the crucifixion. The topic here was the existence of Jewish Christians, and Josephus is talking about them.
“The Testimonium is purest fabrication”
That’s not the majority view. The reference to the tribe of Christians is accepted by many. Anyway, are you trying to say there were no Christian Jews in the first century after the alleged death of Jebus?
Last, borrowing “pagan” elements and applying them to someone can be done even if the person existed. There are faithless scholars who don’t accept the hypothesis of Jesus’ inexistence, so a non-scholar saying “it takes hardly any serious analysis to see it as a late fabrication” is w/o any merit.
“As a cultural Jew, I am deeply offended, too. Really, goys promoting a “Yiddish Mama’s Kitchen”?? Do they put mayo on the corned beef?”
Yes! Only since ‘mayonnaise’ is a French word, they have to call it ‘Freedom Sauce’.
Love it!
“Do they put mayo on the corned beef?”
LOL!!
I once worked as a temporary employee at a predominantly Mormon office. One of the men described the church picnic he’d been to the previous day as having “lots of Mormon ethnic food.” I grew up in Virginia and was unfamiliar with Mormon cuisine, so I asked what he meant. He laughed and said,
“Oh, anything with Miracle Whip in it!”
Ugh. I told him that didn’t sound very good. He said,
“Oh, it’s not. But ya gotta eat it. It’s part of the religion!”
Jello is major LDS ethnic fare. And Jello mixed with Miracle Whip is really the deal, wether at Temple potluck or at home.
If that’s right, which I don’t doubt, Miracle Whip alone is reason enough not to have anything to do with Mormonicals, without even bothering with the theology.
Oh, Jews for Jesus. The last time I encountered them they tried to convert me with some version of first cause: “How did the universe come to be? I don’t know, therefore JESUS!” You can’t expect much out of subway missionaries who for all I knew were putting on little more than some stereotypical orthodox Jewish clothing and trying to troll for Jesus to see if they got any bites. They said something else about how I needed to be redeemed for my sins or something too, and being a jerk I just laughed at them.
I think Americans need to add a new question to the list of those regularly asked of aspiring presidents: “Do you feel it will be part of your role if elected as President of the USA, to do whatever you can to hasten the apocalypse?” It seems like an answer to this question would have saved the whole world a lot of trauma, had GWB been asked it at the appropriate juncture.
Waste of time. They’d feel that it was their duty to lie so that they could achieve their divine goal.
“And you should, if you please, refuse
Until the conversion of the Jews.”
Donne, ‘To his coy mistress’
I believe that poem is by Andrew Marvell; the Google agrees with me.
Aside from Kinky Friedman, just how many Jews do they expect to find down there, anyway?
120,000 or thereabouts. Mostly in Houston, I would think, from my first hand experience.
Although it surely wouldn’t be the case for the MJBI, some in Israel have been eager to pander to American groups of evangelicals obsessed with Israel and the second coming. The history of this American evangelical preoccupation is discussed in a lengthy article, On the Road to Armageddon: How evangelicals became Israel’s best friend, that dates back to the end of George W. Bush’s second term. In the article there is mention of the 1996 birth in Israel of a red heifer named Melody. This is discussed in more detail in an article titled The Miracle of Melody, The Red Heifer. This heifer is said to have been the result of genetic engineering work by an Israeli Rabbi and a Mississippi cattle rancher. The article ends with:
.
What are you saying dates back to Bush’s second term? I think the widespread evangelical notice of Israel was in full swing considerably before then, at least back to the 1980’s. At least sometime around then is when the evangelical groups I was associated with noticed that Israel was a state again and how that might be seen to fulfill certain Bible verses. That itself is a little comic because somewhere in there there was a clear transition, a period in the 60’s and 70’s when I was growing up in churches when the modern state of Israel was never mentioned even though it had been around since 1948 and, suddenly, like it was a new archeological discovery, the modern state of Israel was coming up all the time in sermons and evangelical writing.
My question about the date notwithstanding it’s all terrifying stuff IMO. It’s one thing to think that some day god will come down and burn the earth up with god-fire or something, it’s another for a large and influential group to think that god requires that the most volatile and intractable region in the world should be stirred vigorously and have gasoline poured on it.
A Jewish friend told me his sister had converted to Jews for Jesus, and had tried to convert their aged parents, which considerably upset the parents, and thus my friend. That’s all I know about it.
Jerry, you say:
“As a cultural Jew, I am deeply offended, too.”
That makes no sense. (I share the same “cultural heritage.”) As a cultural agnostic, or maybe atheist, when confronted with a cultural member of a superstitious, irrational, and theologically nonsensical cult (Evangelical George W.) giving support to a silly cult attempting to convert a superstitious, irrational, and theologically nonsensical cult (observant Jews of essentially any stripe), you, of all people, ought to recognize that this controversy is meaningless and trivial in the context of anything useful or important to human understanding and progress. The dispute offends common sense, I suppose, but it is truly a “who cares” moment for thinking folks.
Before you give me your lecture on how I’m supposed to behave,you MIGHT consider that what I said was obviously tongue in cheek! Others have recognized this as humor, but you get on your high horse and lecture me about how I’m supposed to behave.
Jebus! Chill out. And tnanks for implying that I’m not one of the “thinking folks”. That’s offensive.
I have to say, it wasn’t apparent to me either that you (Jerry) were being tongue-in-cheek. And I had the same thoughts as Stan Robins but as a non-Jew I was a bit reluctant to voice them directly.
It’s notoriously difficult to tell on the Internet when anyone is being serious or not.
Lighter note – I almost wish I was Jewish so they could try and convert me and I could tell them to get stuffed.
It has Bible schools in 12 countries, an online school of “Messianic theology,”
Well, this thread has been pretty interesting, but for me, the *real* question is, Does their school of theology teach about god? After all, I seem to have read somewhere recently that theology isn’t actually about god (kind of like the idea that paleontology isn’t really about fossils).
Wait a minute. If the rest of us have to put up with these proselytizing assholes, why should Jews get a special exemption? 😊
Presumably they’ve suffered enough at Christian hands, so they deserve a time-out.
Except for that there is, of course, something silly about being offended that the Han-shot-first crowd is trying to convert the Han-shot-second crowd when you can’t stand the movie.
when you are someone who can’t stand the movie.
+1
Both lots are batshit insane so who cares? What’s more disturbing is that someone who really believes this fruitcake End Times stuff actually got elected to President….
(I suppose I should have a slight interest in that Dubya’s lot seem to regard Armageddon with approval whereas I’m not aware that orthodox Jewishness does so, so the fewer converts Dubya’s lot make the better for the world. But I suspect their chances of actually making any converts approximate to a snowflake in Hell anyway).
Yes, outside observers should care about the content of other’s delusions. Not all delusions are equally pernicious.
Sorry for the very late comment, but I was hoping that someone else might mention corned beef with swiss cheese, sauerkraut and Russian dressing, enclosed in rye bread, which is to say a Reuben sandwich, not at all kosher but occasionally heavenly.
I love reubens. Those things are addictive and once addicted you tend to put on weight!
If you want to see how Christians have worked themselves into a lather at being persecuted by Jews over this issue, stroll over to “Christianity Today” to see how heroic the Christians are being:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2013/november/george-w-bush-helps-messianic-jews-rekindle-fundraiser.html?utm_source=ctweekly-html&utm_medium=Newsletter&utm_term=11146227&utm_content=224544471&utm_campaign=2013
What was surprising to me was the fact 1 of 4 Christians think Jews killed Christ!
Jerry, can’t any religion can do ANYTHING. The stupider and crazier the better. Isn’t that what it is all about?
Really makes me wonder exactly what god said to him when he was praying for policy guidance.
Not good.