When you think of pastors giving people bad advice about AIDS, you think of Catholics in Africa. When you think of pastors telling patients that God, and not Western medicine, can heal them, you think of either Christian Scientists or wacko American fundamentalists.
But some Pentecostal preachers are advising their AIDS-afflicted patients to give up their antivirals—in England!
Since this “survey” is anecdotal, I’ll give just a brief summary of the BBC’s recent report:
The Children’s HIV Association surveyed 19 doctors and health professionals working with babies and children in England; its members had reported hearing anecdotal evidence of HIV patients deciding to stop taking their anti-retroviral drugs because their pastors had told them to do so.
Among 10 doctors who said they had encountered the problem in the last five years, 29 of their patients had reported being put under pressure to stop taking medicine and at least 11 had done so.
The doctors and health professionals reported a variety of cases:
. . . The healthcare workers also reported that some patients had been told by their pastors they would be healed by prayer or by drinking blessed water.
Why give up the drugs? Apparently because it gives God a chance to effect the cure.
Pentecostals and other Christians see healing, like speaking in tongues, as a sign of the presence of God.
Pentecostal pastor Stevo Atanasio, from the East London Christian Church, said that among his congregation, blind people had recovered sight, deaf people had heard again, and what were considered terminal illnesses had been cured.
And the amputees?
“We don’t say to people ‘don’t take your medication don’t go to the doctor’. I mean we never say that,” he said.
“But we believe that the first healing comes from inside, it’s a spiritual healing. Some people are hurt, they have broken hearts. If you are healed from inside, then you are healed from outside as well.”
So far I know of no evidence that spirituality can kill viruses.
Now this is only a small number of cases, but remember that one life lost over such stupidity is one life too many, especially when it’s a young child. Truly, telling your flock to give up AIDS drugs should be a criminal offense.
The BBC reports that Pentecostalism is growing quickly in the UK: The number of Pentecostal churches in London, for example, has doubled since 2005.
What’s going on over there? Are Brits reverting to the religious lunacy of the U.S.?
h/t: Steve
moral pigmys……
sub
I expect objective confirmation of the blindness/deafness reversals among Stevo Atanasio’s congregation will be demonstrated concurrently with data on the broken heart repair findings. All this will verify the efficacy of abandoning medical treatment to (finally) give prayer a fair chance.
The names of the Pentecostal ministers – Stevo Atanasio, Israel Olofinjanu – quoted in the BBC article are a good clue as to the origins of this. I think most of this growth is due to recent immigration from Africa rather than a resurgence of religious fervour among indigenous Brits. Unfortunately, religious lunacy of both Christian and Islamic varieties is one of the less desirable aspects of imported multiculturalism. It’s most prevalent in London, where a huge proportion of the population (approaching 50%,if I remember correctly), were born outside the UK.
These were my thoughts too when I saw the item on the news.
Pentecostal Churches that promote this activity do tend to be from the African tradition rather than the British tradition. This is not evidence of British Evangelicals becoming more like American Evangelicals, this is evidence of migrating Evangelicals from parts of the world where rejection of medicine already happens.
London is an eclectic colours kind of kingdom all unto itself. All human life is here. A born and bred London pentecostalist taught me pre-university physics at my local college. Poor fellow – though a pleasant enough guy -looked bemused when I spoke about “the trance phenomenon” in connection with his church of choice.
The boom, however, is most certainly amongst African immigrants.
“Truly, telling your flock to give up AIDS drugs should be a criminal offense”
Part of the wisdom of Mencken’s polemic against fundamentalism is that he suggests we should be blaming pastors less for foolishness and blaming people who are led astray by them more. If you seriously believe speaking in tongues heals AIDS and are already being treated for AIDS and decide to give up your real medicine, you are a moron. To push the culpability onto cretinous pastors is condescending, especially in a developed country like England. Unless the pastor is explicitly extracting money from these people for his “wisdom” about AIDS treatment and committing some sort of fraud, how can what they’re saying be criminally punishable?
In the same way we hold people who encourage other people to commit suicide to be guilty of crime. If a man is standing on the edge of a bridge, and you yell “Jump!”, you are guilty of aiding suicide. Ministers are by definition in a very personal and powerful relationship to their charges, and if they abuse that trust, they should be prosecuted. I think it would be a very pernicious principle of law to say that stupid people get what they deserve.
The suicide case you described is nothing like what’s going on here. The person who yells “jump” of course has malicious intent (by the way, there are way better suicide examples you could have used, but so it goes). I think we have to assume the preacher who tells a person that prayer is more effective than pills actually believes that; he has no criminal animus against that person (unlike the “jump” yeller).
If you are going to be in the business of prosecuting those who encourage/enable stupid people to do stupid things, you should be interested in arraigning casino owners, defense lawyers (their business is getting people off when they do stupid things; people would therefore commit fewer crimes without them around), cigarette vendors, alcohol vendors who sell to drunks, and the list goes on. I don’t think that’s a legal precept you would care to adopt.
I think you are a con artist looking for a societal upgrade.
Haha. Well-played..
These people are led to believe that their god leaders have a profound connection to their gods. That occurs in conjunction with endorsement by government and society generally. And it is likely forcefully and/or persistently instilled upon their minds. Now, you think the victim that has been drawn into that nonsense should be left with a charge of “You moron”? While the perpetrator is allowed to continue as if they have been victorious in exposing a moron. It is entirely different to try to get the victim to understand the stupidity of what they have been taught, maybe even to referring to them as moronic but, to at the same time hold the perpetrator harmless in this case of severe brainwashing is not acceptable. AND, the perpetrators are indeed vigorously extracting money from the victims.
The perpetrators can be held criminally responsible as soon as the society becomes aware enough of the harmful effects of religion’s mythology promotioned as reality to do something about it.
Societies that have no compassion for victims aren’t the places I would choose to live.
“These people are led to believe that their god leaders have a profound connection to their gods. That occurs in conjunction with endorsement by government and society generally”
Yes! Exactly! How can a cleric recommending prayer over pills be criminally liable when garbage like that, as you suggest, is endorsed by government and society? This situation really is tragic, andi hate to sound callous, but the only serious fix is to educate people and tirelessly, firmly tell them that disease is not cured by ecclesiastical activity. Prosecuting pastors not only opens you up to strong challenges about who can be prosecuted for enabling hazardous behavior, but also is probably not a long term solution. After all, grifters and frauds of all types are prosecuted and people still, amazingly, get grifted and defrauded…
Once again, it sounds like you are suggesting that stupid people don’t deserve protection from those who would harm them. In the case of pastors I don’t think good intent is a defense. As I said originally, they are in a position of superior influence, and should not be giving medical advice under the guise of spiritual assistance. People who assume positions where they counsel other people should be held to higher standards. I think a few ministers in jail for giving medical advice would have a salutory affect.
Dave’s comments hits the nail on the head. Most of us home grown Brits could care less about religion (if we go to church it’s mostly for social or traditional reasons, no one really beliefs in the God stuff any more)
Boy God really does hate those poor amputees?
Iv’e tried asking her why, but she never answers
Aaaahh, religion. It certainly makes the world a much better place, doncha think?
Sent from my iPhone
I saw this story too and noted it seems to be amongst African immigrants. I hope the Brits can think of criminal charges for this.
This is largely among African immigrants. When challenged about the failure of a faith healing, one such said that this was proof that the patient simply did not have faith enough.
Difficult to think of criminal proceedings; practicing medicine with out a licence would be closest. But the current (and perhaps any foreseeable) UK government are terrified of annoying religious susceptibilities.
I recently ran across this 2005 quote from Danish Queen Margrethe, and this seems like a good place for it. I expect that if this was happening in Denmark, the official response wouldn’t be as tepid:
(From QM’s Wikipedia page)
“We are being challenged by Islam these years. Globally as well as locally. There is something impressive about people for whom religion imbues their existence, from dusk to dawn, from cradle to grave. There are also Christians who feel this way. There is something endearing about people who give themselves up completely to their faith. But there is likewise something frightening about such a totality, which also is a feature of Islam. A counterbalance has to be found, and one has to, at times, run the risk of having unflattering labels placed on you. For there are some things for which one should display no tolerance. And when we are tolerant, we must know whether it is because of convenience or conviction.”
The BBC footage seemed to show African pastors but the audience seemed to be mainly Europeans. Maybe Catholicism isn’t barmy enough for some people
Reblogueó esto en valores, principios, defectos y vicios humanos: el autoconocimiento no es el nirvana!y comentado:
la decadencia
Whether we can hold a preacher accountable for the instructions he gives his flock is an interesting question. It makes me think of someone like Charles Manson. He’s considered a “mass murderer” and is in prison for life, but as as far as I know, he never killed anyone. He used his psychological hold on his flock and instructed them to do the killing.
Manson is guilty of conspiracy to commit murder, just like a mob boss who orders a hit.
I think you’d have a tough time justifying a charge of “conspiracy to facilitate suicide” against these pastors. At worst they’re guilty of reckless disregard or something of that nature.
Probably among immigrants in London but I suspect also in other areas, see the “Cwmbran Outpouring” is native Welsh. I gather that area of Wales has a high unemployment rate and little hope of economic change (former mining area). However I’m not sure the minister in Cwmbran is telling his flock to stop with modern medicine yet.
Spirituality can absolutely kill viruses.
To paraphrase and mangle Bloom County:
“Death occurs, then viral load rapidly decreases”
Well, at least they are being philosophically coherent; if they believe prayer is the answer to everything & their god heals them they certainly are not as hypocritical as those who reject science but nevertheless seek medical treatments (and attribute their healing to their god instead of their doctors).
Of course, this coherency has tragic, deleterious consequences not only for the obvious reasons but also for the reason that the practitioners will not leave their faith when they suffer the inevitable consequences of their bad choice to reject medicine and will instead see it as a rejection of their god or a failing to pray correctly.
There is a positive side: The health system saves money when people stop using their medicine.
I’d be interesting in seeing those figures. If they carry it through it the end, you’re probably right. If they don’t, it’s going to cost a lot more to deal with someone in critical condition
I’d be more interested in seeing the figures for the loss of what those individuals could have contributed to society but either die from preventable illness or are enslaved into devoting their energy to useless and pernicious ideas.
The most tragic and I propose, most costly loss occurs with children who don’t get a chance to take advantage of everything good that modernity has to offer, including health care and education.
you’re right. They might get heavy infections and eventually check into a hospital for treatment of those.
I guess this is where faith and indoctrination come in .desperate people with little hope resorting to that great comfort blanket of religion. Thoroughly disgusting and scary as hell. The fact that pentecostalism is supposedly growing will be counter balanced by these poor saps being talked into faith suicide I guess
That’s PentEcostal, not PentAcostal.
The Jewish Feast of Pentecost occurs 50 days after Passover. Hence the “pente”.
Pentecostal Christians trace their roots to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit which occurred on the first Pentecost after Christ’s resurrection. At that time, there was speaking in tongues, and prophecies, followed by many miraculous events including supernatural healings. Therefore, Pentecostals believe in divine healing, and some reject modern medicine in preference to trusting that God will heal them.
Whoops! Corrected, thanks. And thanks for the info.
& in the URL (to be sure, to be sure)
There is a column in the NYT by T. M. Luhrmann on the benefits of talking in tongues. Mainly, because it makes people happy.
That’s the only real benefit of any part of religion.
“We don’t say to people ‘don’t take your medication don’t go to the doctor’. I mean we never say that,” he said.
There was also some BBC TV news coverage of this story, which included an interview with a 16 year-old boy who was born with HIV.
He was told by his pastor to ignore his medical advice, stop taking his prescribed medication and, instead, to drink two bottles of magic ‘holy’ water that the pastor gave him.
Needless to say, the boy became very ill and only recovered when he sought professional medical help.
How awful. That pastor should be brought up on criminal charges. I know there were cases in the past where pseudo science charlatans gave bad advice similar to this and people died. I’m pretty sure they were held accountable.
Indeed. If consenting adults want to ignore medical advice and place their faith in magic to cure their illnesses, that’s fine with me. They can take the consequences. However, forcing or urging impressionable minors to do the same is unacceptable, and should be treated as culpable homicide if it results in death.
At the age of 16 you should have had enough education to see through the bullshit that pastor tells. I don’t feel sorry.
Alas, many of these people were brought up in other countries without the benefit of education. Others were born in UK but our nation does have its share of religiose parents who indoctrinate children from birth.
I see them as victims of indoctrination or poor education that leaves them gullible whether they’re over 16 or not.
It is called evolution. Let them go to ” heaven” when their prayers don’t work.
As a born & bred brit I can say rhat in my almost 50 years in UK I’ve seen religion decline amongst the population as a whole. However we have seen many people import religion as they’ve immigrated here. This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t allow immigration, by the way. I see no reason to go down that nationalist/racist road. But it is an explanation for the apparent rise in religiosity among some of our large population centres (London, Birmingham and Manchester spring to mind).
It’s their life to do stupid things with. If they believe their cured and go around infecting others, on the other hand…
*they’re
I think these pastors have a special influence though & that, to me, carries special weight. I think they should be held accountable when they provide such terrible advice…..probably unrealistic of me I know.
That and then there is the fact that untreated hiv+’s are more infectious than those who take antiretroviral drugs… The drugs help with viral suppresion and so people on ART don’t spread the virus as easily.
That’s real madness. May be they want to reduce their over blowing populations as you did in Africa!
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I notice an appetite for faith healing even in the heart of the South. In Sussex there is the popular Kingdom Faith Church, led by Colin Urquhart. He wrote ‘True Healing’:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/True-Healing-Series-ebook/dp/B008VFDDA0
Typical quote:
“In the final analysis faith is a very simple matter. It is unbelief that complicates the situation! In simplicity of faith children can lay hands on one another, and even on their parents, and see healing result. The children at Kingdom Faith are taught to expect to be used of God in this way as a normal part of their Christian lives and experience! Wonderful miracles often result!”
Unfortunately I think the effect of this sort of preaching is that some believers at least *delay* seeking proper medical treatment, which could be dangerous. Particularly when they teach their children the same stuff.
The British religionists are just as completely retarded as their American counterparts, there are just a lot less of them. Pentecostals are known for dying by drinking poison and playing with snakes because, you guessed it, Jesus says people with faith will not die if they engage in these deeds. Ironic enough, the founder of the Pentecostal church died via these activities.
I guess he just didn’t have enough faith in a dead Jewish carpenter?
“Are Brits reverting to the religious lunacy of the U.S.?”
No – these are largely immigrants from Africa where the pentecostal churches are almost transformations of traditional native religion, full of superstion & nonsense. Well that would be all religion!