Despite the hypocrisy and outright lying of Republicans (“We want health care reform too, just not this bill, and we is going too fast anyway”), the Congress made history. What a bonus for those of us who voted for Obama! Paul Krugman, who, I’m glad to see, is becoming increasingly blunt, has a nice column about it in today’s New York Times.
This is, of course, a political victory for President Obama, and a triumph for Nancy Pelosi, the House speaker. But it is also a victory for America’s soul. In the end, a vicious, unprincipled fear offensive failed to block reform. This time, fear struck out.
And of course, as I promised, we shall have a contest for an autographed copy of WEIT. Details later this week.
I was dancing a happy dance this morning, too, for my family and friends (many uninsured) in the US.
Yeah, Krugman’s comments on this have been excellent all along.
Ray, an excerpt from Max Weber’s lecture on Politics as a vocation:
Politics is the intense, slow drilling of hard planks; for which both passion and a good sense of measure are required. It is true — and all historical experience confirms it — that the possible is never reached unless the impossible is groped for. But the one to achieve this needs to be a leader, and also — in the simplest sense of the word — a hero. Even those who are neither must arm themselves with that fortitude of the heart which is able to bear the despair of all hopes, here and now. Failing that, they will find themselves incapable of attaining whatever is within today’s reach.
[my translation, after finding the existing inadequate]
Yeah, this is huge. I lived in Massachusetts for the last 5 years and resistance to health care was not noticeable (since it was made into law last year anyways). Now I live in the Shennandoah Valley (Western VA) and our local TV station ran a half hour “program” on the evils of government-run health care, complete with the outright lie that the government would let old people die in hospitals since they’ll run out of medicine under this system. It is scary how much baseless ideological resistance there is to government-run health care.
The Tea Party is the best thing to ever happen to the Democrats. It splits the Republicans into two groups: smart-but-wrong and scary-n-dumb, with the latter group assuming the voice for the entire party.
Didn’t Rush Limbaugh say he’d leave the country if this bill passed.
At least, living in the Valley, you can take some solace from the fact that Ralph Stanley (the grand old man of old-time mountain music, still touring at 83!) recorded a spot for Obama during the campaign, and continues to support him, in print, in his recent autobiography.
Don’t get me wrong…lots of good people out here, and I love it. Just a different political climate on average.
Nope, didn’t (get you wrong). Based on limited input I think the “toe” of the state (SW part of the Valley) may be more progressive as it hasn’t been infiltrated by NoVA reactionaries. Anyway, I envy you for having a reason to live there.
Get yourself a Dr. Ralph Stanley for President bumper sticker – even if the opposition doesn’t like his politics, they never argue with his music.
CONGRATIULATIONS USofA !!
Now be patient. You will see that getting civilized doesn’t hurt.
The Republican party has become the fringe party of racists, bigots and denialists. They lack any compassion and have lost their common sense. They are the naysayers; They no longer propose any legislation besides that which targets removing basic freedoms from homosexuals, Hispanics, women, etc.
The Republicans in congress expressed their incivility yesterday by cheering on a heckler, something never seen before.
Racial and bigoted epitaphs were hurled by the ‘tea baggers’ in Washington DC, to show the world how intolerant, racist and extremely fascist they have become.
This health care bill is not a great piece of legislation, but it is a beginning. It is a bill that, for a change, puts the American citizen ahead of the special interests of the wealthy individuals and corporations.
You should’ve been in the Senate Gallery in the 1850s, it got nasty there. Heckling bothers you? How about aggravated assault right on the floor of the Senate? How about representatives being charged with dueling over a bill? Yesterday’s exercise in sausage making was sedate in comparison.
Cheering a heckler? I remember when .65cal minie balls constituted heckling, accompanied by rebel yells. What happened over health care reform, and what’s going to happen over health care reform, don’t even rise to the status of a kerfuffle.
BTW, when your taxes and premiums both go through the roofs, remember you’re now supporting bureaucrats as well as your physician.
Is that all? Ever get done with the scare tactics?
Scare tactics? Pointing out politics in America are not as violent as they used to be constitutes scare tactics? Your reading comprehension stinks on ice with a heavy coating of deodorant.
Alan, did you forget your BTW statement?
Since when haven’t insurance premiums been going through the roof, that might have changed with a public option but the fear kill that one.
I don’t know if the bill that passed is real good but, something definitely needed/needs to be done. The republican idea of do nothing and let corrupt insurance companies and other corrupt corporations have their way is worthless.
Your writing skills are on a level with my cat’s.
“I remember when .65cal minie balls constituted heckling, accompanied by rebel yells”
And you were born when, exactly???
Have you read the bill, Alan Kellogg? Where does it state that My insurance, being controlled by Insurance company bureaucrats, get replaced by government bureaucrats?
Oh wait, It says the insurance company bureaucrats can no longer deny my coverage. I guess this is bad, right?
My premiums have been going up year after year after year. It just went up 40% due to the insurance company. I am restricted to one of about 5 private insurance companies now. There is little free-market in health insurance.
I don’t appreciate the fear mongering, Alan.
Who said private company bureaucrats are going to be replaced? Who said they have to be replaced. Private insurance paper pushers can be just as intransigent as government ones, if not more so.
Personal experience: I’m on Medicaid. Medicaid approves my prescriptions no problem (it just doesn’t pay the full cost). I signed up for an HMO once (I’ve since dropped them) and they flat out refused to cover the cost of my medication. Medication Medicaid was ready to pay for, but my HMO decided they didn’t want to pay for it, even though they were paying for it with Medicaid funds.
My point is, comprehensive medical insurance is a big part of the problem. I understand how people find it convenient, but you pay for that convenience. You want to save money on your medical care you need to help bring the cost down. Bureaucrats cost money. Paperwork costs money. Bureaucracy means paperwork. Ask your doctor sometime how much time and money he spends on paperwork, for your care alone. Don’t be too surprised at the answer you get.
Now a question for you; how much a month do you pay for health insurance? Do you know how much of that goes towards your medical care? Now, how much is your co-pay?
I pay 100% of $1250/month/2 people. That is changed because it went up to $1700/month so we increased the deductibles to lower the premiums. All together I pay close to $20,000/year.
Bureaucrats do cost money and the insurance companies are filthy with ignorant bureaucrats who try to deny coverage. My doctor should be the arbiter of what medical care I get, not the insurance company.
The latest figures I can find for the UK, actually England since healthcare is a devolved power, is that the NHS costs each person £1,774. That for the last tax year.
Of course that figure is somewhat misleading since the true amount paid towards the NHS by an individual depends on how much direct and indirect tax they pay.
holly….for a fraction of that i’ll take care of you and your extended family including non humans. i havent practiced in many years but i know my stuff. i can throw in some massaging and other goodies, like counseling and listening ad libitum.
Kellog,
If you want the cost of healthcare to come down then the answer is more government involvement, not less.
The US pays more per capita for healthcare than other any other developed country. It also performs poorly in comparison with those other countries on health outcomes.
The health schemes in those countries that perform better and pay less all have one thing in common. They all have some element of government control.
Coming from a Canadian this seems like great news for you folks!
I don’t get American news stations so my knowledge of the debate is limited to internet news sources and newspapers but I don’t get this added expense argument at all. Prior to this bill the US government already paid more per person than countries with universal health care despite 50 million or so receiving no coverage. The return on this investment was a life expectancy ranked 38th by the United Nations and behind all developed nations (all countries that provide universal health care). Judiciously choosing pieces from among the systems in place in other countries and building a new system very likely to reduce costs once things are up and running seems like a great option.
Wait a minute — you’re on government provided Medicaid, which as you admit would cover most of your drug costs, and you’re complaining about health reform? Is your problem that it didn’t go far enough, and put everyone on a Medicaid-like program?
Those on Medicaid don’t want to share, they know they’ve got it better then anyone and they want to keep it that way.
Its the work of the greatest (greediest) generation.
*Medicare* not *medicaid*
The guys on Medicare are the retired voters who skew conservative and vote in high numbers. The people who are on medicaid skew poor and vote in lesser numbers anyway.
Haha! The movie Fear Strikes Out was just on television. I finished watching it 5 minutes ago.
All those attempts to defeat health care reform were obviously motivated by a desire to make Obama’s administration a failure, nothing more. And Obama’s poll numbers were dropping as it looked like health reform was going to fail.
But it backfired. Obama won this one, and he’s looking strong. I’d bet my house his numbers will go up during the next month or two. They’ve got nobody who can beat him in 2012.
Nice to see the Dems grow a backbone.
For amusement, watch a half-hour of Fox News coverage of this “disaster.” Lots of laughs.
I think you are only half right on this. The non-tea bagger portion of the Republican Party is a wholly owned subsidiary of the corporate state. Their principle task is to protect the profits of their corporate overlords so that they will receive significant contributions to their re-election campaigns. Additionally, they hope to be able to cash in when they leave Congress. Making Obama look like a failure is only an ancillary but important benefit of this principle task.
Well, my read on the collective psyche of the American populace is that they hate a loser and they love a winner (didn’t Patton say something like that?). So, if the Dems can just promote that they won the good fight, that the liars lost and that the Republic is still strong, Democrats that voted for this bill should not have anything to fear in November. The President should make it a point to visit the districts of the so-called ‘at risk’ Democrats that voted for the bill BEFORE the election cycle to promote and educate. Waiting until the election champaign begins will be too late, IMHO. Strike early and build on this victory.
It’s still depressing that this ridiculously industry-friendly half-hearted bill faced so much opposition… but it’s a major victory anyway, and here’s why: Now that all Americans will have health insurance, any attempt to take that away will result in the same sort of fearmongering, i.e. it is a political impossibility. The same folks who this year said “I don’t want the guvmint messing with my Medicare!” will be the ones saying “I don’t want the guvmint messing with my insurance exchange!” heh…
What do we do when doctors leave the profession, and insurance companies fold or go bankrupt.
I’m already on government health care. My care is already rationed. My care is already restricted. Pharmacies already reject my insurance, because my insurance demands to do business at a loss. My insurance already refuses me dental and optometric care. Can you be sure things will not be the same for you sometime in the future.
Live as healthy as you can, see the doctor when you need to, pay for basic care yourself, and save up for catastrophic care. That is how you save money on health care, not by relying on some faceless bureaucrat who wouldn’t know you from a crack in the sidewalk. Yes, it is an imposition, but it is an imposition you control.
I have no intention of leaving my profession. I don’t think most members of the AMA would back reform if they thought that.
Incidentally don’t insurance industry executives count as “faceless beaurocrats”?
You are not all physicians, and so cannot speak for them all. Additionally, you have no knowledge of future events and so cannot speak with knowledge thereof.
I speak from knowledge of what has happened, of how government health care has forced physicians to refuse government insurance; and of how at least one state (California) has decided to stop paying for dental and eye care for MediCal recipients. The potential is now there for this sort of thing to be extended to the rest of the country. There are consequences for everything you do, even when you’d rather not consider them.
You may not intend to leave medicine because of the increased costs you’ll be facing in the future, but it’s a possibility. I don’t know what’s going to happen, you don’t know what’s going to happen, but based on what has happened before I can have little confidence in that things will turn out well.
Do surgeons not also provide healthcare ?
Storm in a teacup, old bean.
Nice to know the AMA cannot speak for the physicians either. (But you can)
And when government run agencies start paying for a service that is bad but when the insurance companies do the same that is just fine. (And that can’t having to do with voters in CA rejecting higher taxes, right?).
And the fact that we do plenty of pro bono work already can’t have anything to do with AMA’s position either, right?
It is nice to know “you don’t know” what is going to happen but that sill doesn’t stop you from warning about “what will we do when doctors leave the practice, premiums rise, etc”. That is what I meant by scare tactics.
In other words, go back to the days before health insurance. Fucking brilliant.
Wrong, go back to the days before comprehensive coverage. Back to the days when insurance was for catastrophic events. Back to the days when you paid cash for basic treatment and doctor visits. Back to the days when you were considered competent enough to take care of yourself.
Comprehensive care is a convenience. Conveniences have a price. This price is over and above what you would otherwise pay for a service or product. Your hotel has consierge service, your bill includes the cost of that service. Even if you don’t use it, you still pay for it. The same for comprehensive health insurance. Even when you don’t use it you’re paying for it.
Let’s say you pay $200 a year for a service, which you use maybe 4 times a year. The advantage of the service is that it’s paid for. But then you learn that by paying cash you would be paying just $20.00 a visit. Pay cash when you need the service, and on the average you save $120 a year. You’re paying $120 a year for the convenience of not having to pay cash. Is it really worth it? Are you really so well off you can really afford it?
That’s what you have with comprehensive health insurance, a convenience you pay for through premiums and higher costs. A convenience you may not be really taking advantage of because you’re paying a co-pay that covers the actual cost of the care to you. Ever consider that? That the co-pay you make for each doctor’s visit would cover the cost if you didn’t have comprehensive insurance, and your doctor didn’t have that paperwork to deal with?
Convenience has a price, you can’t get past that. Do without the convenience and you’ll save money.
This is a false choice, Alan. Go back to what? When the couldn’t cure hardly anything? Even in 1960 medicine was a small fraction of what it is today.
There is no going back, because there is no ‘there’ to go to.
Saying medical care is a convenience is just idiotic.
There is generally a consensus amongst doctors that primary care is over utilised by the public. That is people go to see their doctor more often than they really need to. There is also a consensus that such situation is vastly preferable to a situation where people delay seeing their doctor, with the risk that conditions that would be easy to treat if caught early go undiagnosed, and when diagnosed pose more to the patient and cost more to treat.
You are aware that when people have to directly pay to see a doctor they go less often, and as a result life-threatening conditions go undiagnosed for longer, with a commensurate increased risk off death ?
In other words all the medical bankruptcies we have today are just an “inconvenience”.
I don’t get why rightwingers are so afraid of politicians and government employees, who are in principle accountable to them, but apparently completely trust businesses that are not accountable to them at all? Furthermore, these “trustable” businesses are 1) often regional monopolies and 2) have a strong profit incentive to cheat them.
Government bureaucrats, at least, don’t profit directly by cheating their customers. Insurance companies do.
In fairness to Alan Kellogg, he didn’t suggest trusting the insurance company bureaucrats; he suggested abandoning health insurance altogether by paying for basic care out of pocket and “saving up” for major care. Like that is realistic for most Americans.
So I think he’s not so much a looney teabagger, but a crazy bunker-hunkering extreme-libertarian.
Yeah, that saving up bit is very odd.
It is almost as though he thinks having a serious medical condition is somekind of choice. “Honey, we can afford for you to have cancer or a new television but not both!”
Save up when you can, but get catastrophic insurance for emergencies. That is my recommended course of action. My point is it is best to be responsible for yourself, instead of relying on others.
Why not just have universal coverage which is not only cheaper, but also better ?
Someone needs to explain the concept of “insurance” to Alan.
Someone needs to explain the concept of reason to Alan.
Just sock those pennies back somewhere so when you get a stroke you can take it out of your savings.
No insurance needed.
Pennies? Can’t we use popsicle sticks?
Right, because kids fresh out of college with nothing but student loans never get serious medical conditions. Everyone can wait 30 years to get sick until they save up the hundreds of thousands, maybe even tens of millions of dollars needed for an expensive medical conditions.
How often do catastrophic conditions arise? In the old, quite often. Among the young, rarely. Save up when you can, and get catastrophic coverage, and you may not be set for life, but life should be easier on yourself.
Yes, catastrophic care can get expensive. Yes, if a 22 or 23 year old could need catastrophic care. But, the possibility is very small. Real small compared to what an elderly person faces.
My point is, focus on getting coverage for what has the greater potential to drive you into bankruptcy, instead of the piddlin’ stuff. You don’t need coverage for routine doctor visits. You do need coverage for cancers and the like. The money you save by not spending for comprehensive coverage could go towards saving up for your later days and the care you will need then.
WalMart just announced they will no longer accept Medicaid paid prescriptions. You get Medicaid and you need to fill your prescriptions at WalMart, you’d better have cash on hand. WalMart is losing money on Medicaid prescriptions, and could go bankrupt if they kept taking them. That is a price we are paying for a convenience, a government funded comprehensive care insurance package.
Okay, my brain is getting all fuzzled, so let me say just this; you are more capable than you think, you can handle more than you think. Don’t ask more of authority than authority is able to provide, and learn to rely on yourself and your friends and family.
I will stop relying on authority when you stop accepting MediCal.
You must be aware that when people pay directly for each visit to their doctor they go far less often.
I presume therefore you are willing to accept the downside of your policy, which will be increased deaths from cancer and other diseases that get diagnosed later and with a poorer prognosis.
I would add that it seems clear Kellogg has no conception of chronic disease.
Asthma and diabetes are two chronic diseases that are common in young people. Both need to be controlled, with regular visits to healthcare professionals being important. Left uncontrolled, diabetes will be fatal, and the risk of a fatal asthma attack in substantially increased.
But never mind such people not being able to afford to visit their doctor or nurse.
Matt,
I have diabetes. It’s weight related. I lose weight my diabetes would likely go away.
We got people to be more active, to do more, we’d likely have less diabetes in the population. Getting people to be more active might do the same for asthma.
On the subject of chronic disease I have to ask, are they really that expensive to treat? How much of the cost of treatment is for the paperwork insurance demands? How much is for the bureaucrats, private and governmental, needed to handle that paperwork.
BTW, you just reminded me I need to call my PCP about a vitamin B12 shot, and about a cpap machine. Don’t ask how, my thoughts just follow strange pathways. With my energy levels up, and the medication and vitamins I’m taking, I’ll be getting out more and thinking clearer. And you played a part in it. I bet you hate yourself now. 🙂
Diabetes in young people is normally Type I which has nothing to do with weight.
As for the costs ? Well a diabetic should be seeing a diabetes specialist doctor at least once every 12 months, and have another check-up every 12 months as well. There is also the ongoing cost of medication, Insulin for Type Is and the associated cost of testing equipment and strips.
Checking the cost to the NHS, which gets its drugs at very cheap rates, there would not be much change out of £600 per annum simply on drugs costs. If an insulin pump is used, the cost will be higher as the equipment costs more, and there is a greater need for medical follow-up.
So in answer to your question, yes there can be a significant cost.
The cost of treating Asthmatics will vary more, since there is greater variance in the severity of the disease. However the number of asthmatics hospitlised each year as a result of their disease is significant. There are also greater costs associated with asthma when it comes to treating other conditions. Hospital stays are typically longer as there are increased risks associated with surgery, in particular with anaesthetics. There are also a number of medicines asthmatics cannot be prescribed, meaning they must be given more costly, or less effective drugs. Again the costs, should an individual have to pay then, can be significant.
So the proper solution when a young person gets sick is to just let them die? Are you serious? Yeah, it is relatively rare, but that still adds up to huge numbers of people across the whole population that you are suggesting we simply let die. That is, frankly, monstrous. I can’t believe a human being could possibly suggest something like that.
I think the focus on disease might be forgetting that vastly more young people require emergency care for many types of accidents. How many pensioners snowboard, ride motorcycles too fast, or mountain bike down ski slopes in the off season?
Providing care for those too young, poor, and inexperienced enough to recognize its value seems like a decent idea to me.
BTW, it’s worth checking out Alan Kellog’s blog, if only to see his disturbing obsession with race.
James, you moose. My series on race is about race on a fictional world, a game world. I should hope it’s informed by what we’ve learned about the various human populations, but it’s fiction looking at a fiction.
We have learned a lot about race and human populations, even more in the years since we learned that race is not what we thought it was. Work in genetics has shown us that there are differences in populations. Subtle, yet important differences. Lactose tolerance is a huge difference. As is malaria resistance. But these differences mean nothing where intelligence and morality is concerned. My being able to drink milk does not make me superior, only able to drink milk.
You went to my blog looking for something to hate me for. You found it and I’m happy for you. May you find much more on my blog to misrepresent, far be it from me to make you unhappy.
BTW, I’m fascinated by people, and all their variety. Ethnicity and race are a part of the package, and I think your background and ancestry make you more fascinating still. You have ancestors to be proud of, be proud of them. You have relatives to be proud of, be proud of them.
well, hope you wont start collecting people and hanging their skins to admire tehir diversity
Alan, if you were truly consistent you wouldn’t accept Medicaid.
You assume I have a choice.
You’re seeing me at my best; at a remove and on medication. I’m a very different person in person, for I get flustered and confused when dealing with people in person. I know how to behave on-line, I’m not so hot face to face.
The condition is called Aspergers, you may want to read up on it.
I think his point was that you should practice what you preach.
Asperger’s is not life-threatening. So according to your, you should be paying for your care out of your own pocket.
You do have a choice Allan.
Stop taking your medicine. Go bankrupt and homeless.
That is what is happening to thousands each year. And you seem to think that is just fine.
That’s a choice?
Aspergers means I have no choice. Clinical depression means I have no choice. I could dispute with you more, but I can see you’re not about to consider my position, for yours has to be the right one. In you I see no empathy, only contempt for others. Only your position matters and alternative views have no meaning.
Have fun accusing me of cruelty and avarice, and know I doubt you’re capable of thinking beyond your own narrow bigotry.
Allan, you just don’t get it, do you.
I know very well what Asperger’s is.
But that doesn’t excuse your obvious indifference to the fate of millions of uninsured. How many among them have Asperger’s? Does that ever bother you?
Do you ever realize if your libertarian viewpoint one day becomes the law you will be the first to lose your coverage?
So tell us why you think you are so deserving of having a substantial part of your healthcare costs paid for. And then tells us why you so reluctant for the same to be extended to others.
And then explain your hypocrisy.
I don’t watch Fox, but a few hours prior to the House vote, I received this shotgun email:
“This Coming Sunday– Set Your DVR This Sunday at 9:00 PM eastern. Maybe this is why the White House has been discounting FOX. Sounds like this could be History in the making – someone may go down – either Obama or Fox News.It may be that Fox has been holding this information back due to the sensitivity of it and out of courtesy. But, Obama has taken on Fox and it appears they are ready to spill the ugly beans of truth about the background of this individual who has had an extremely radical past.This Sunday Fox news, is going to air a very important documentary about Barack Obama, Sunday night at 9 P M Eastern.The report will go back to Obama’s earlier days, showing even then his close ties to radical Marxist professors, friends, spiritual advisers, etc. It will also reveal details about his ties to Rev. Wright for 20+ years, I.e., how he was participating with this man, and not for the reasons he stated.The report has uncovered more of Obama’s radical past and we will see things that no one in the media is willing to put out there. It will be a segment to remember.Mark your calendar and pass this on to everyone you know: Sunday night, 8 PM CT; 9 PM ET. Democrat or Republican, this report will open your eyes to how YOUR country is being sold down the road to Totalitarian Socialism. If you care about the direction of our country, pass this notice on to everyone you know.”
I have to believe that even Fox couldn’t be this disconnected from reality.
Hahaha. Smells like Bachmann.
More like Glen Beck, who does tend to over do it at times.
Sometimes people need help, but not all the time. Then there are those who need help all the time. The trick is to differentiate between the two, and treat each according to their capabilities. You can do for yourself, then you do for yourself. But, don’t be afraid to ask for help when you get in over your head.
Once there was a man caught in a flood. With the water rising rapidly and soon to overwhelm him as he crouched on his roof, he cried out to God for assistance.
As he cried the Hand of God reached out and took him up. Clutched in God’s hand he hung there above the flood waters as God said most firmly, “A boat is coming your way to save you from the flood. You will accept the boatman’s offer of assistance. You will not refuse his offer of assistance saying that I will save you. You will do this because I’m sick of idiots like you refusing to do anything sensible on your behalf.”
With that he placed the man back on his roof where he waited for the boat to come by and save him.
“More like Glen Beck, who does tend to over do it at times.”
Nah, Beck is the apex of reason.
While your god idea had the guy in its hand why didn’t it just put him in a dry spot and avoid all the drama.
Damn those christian myths are stupid.
God could have achieved the same outcome by not existing in the first place.
… and then, after having a seizure in the hospital waiting room because he could not afford a routine checkup, the man died. The boat of universal health care eventually arrived, but too late to save him.
Man, that should have been “emergency room”, not “hospital waiting room”. My kingdom for a preview button.
What is that makes so many Americans unable to understand what socialism is ?
Christianity wants people to only rely on one of their variety of mythical gods.
Generations of lying propaganda coupled with truly woeful education will do it every time.
Most have never met or talked with an actual socialist. Have you ever seen one talking about politics on American news channels? I’m not sure I have. Plenty of conservatives and liberals. Quite a number of libertarians, and Christian dominionists. Never socialists or communists.
This is the END OF AMERICA because it helps people rather than corporations.
Who will it help? Are you sure?
Who cares about the uninsured, long as Alan got his (evil) state-run insurance.
Classic FUD.
Take a comparative view Alan. Look at New Zealand, Switzerland, Taiwan, Japan, France, or Canada. Look at the problems in the UK and avoid their mistakes.
In the industrialized world, we pay more per capita and get less and have worse average outcomes.
If you divide it into rich and poor, the difference is even more extremem.
Isurance is pooling risk. The bigger the pool, the more predictable the risk and the easier it is to manage. Combine that with the saving overhead (no advertising, no investigators trying to disqualify customers, no dividends to pay) and effeciencies of scale (the U.S. administrative cost for Medicare is very low) and you have a better situation than the little regional monopolies/duopolies that you are currently faced with.
But of course, we could only dream of a single payer system administered by the government. After all, it is only good enough for our retirees and the affluent nations of Europe and Asia. Definitely not good enough for the 30M uninsured in the U.S.
I’m so tired of the “forced” health care red herring fallacy. What the baggers really mean to say is, “I don’t want to subsidize health insurance availability for the poor and prefer a Herbert Spencer approach to social systems — although evolution is a lie foisted by liberal, professorial communists who want to make us buy health insurance.”
I hope that there is some real substance which will help people. I don’t think the struggle for health care will be over until you get some form of single payer insurance.
Good luck to you all, and may this be the start of a change for Obama & the Dems, finally passing major legislation.
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/03/22/signed-sealed-but-not-delivered-six-big-flaws-need-fixing-to-make-new-law-meaningful-health-care-reform/
Now all they need to do is fix the glaring holes of no competition, no cost controls, no oversight… The bill is a giveaway to insurance companies, and unfortunately I don’t see anyone’s payments going down. Going up to cover everyone new, though…
We currently have an unfunded liability of $106.4 trillion dollars for SS and Medicare, and a total private net worth as a nation of only $51.5 trillion.
Why Coyne, who as a scientist apparently has no mathematical ability whatsoever, is excited about adding additional grinding debt to future generationsin perpetuity, is beyond me.
I guess it is way beyond you. Especially comprehension. If you read some of posts here, you would see that it is cheaper everywhere else than the poor way it is done in the US.
Well, it is presumably cheaper to individuals who want to purchase insurance – but this has nothing to do with the cost to the government.
There is no reason to believe it will reduce our debt, and lots of good reasons to believe it will increase it significantly.
Except that is what the non-partisan OMB says will happen. Where did your numbers come from?
The pays more per capita, and as a percentage of GDP, for healthcare than any other developed nation.
It terms of health outcomes you would expect it to perform at or near the top of health outcome measures for such countries. It does not. At best it is middle ranked. On some measures it is outperformed by Cuba.
Oops, you are confusing the poor chap with evidence and reality.
As you point out, socialised health-care experiment has been performed many times in ‘Western’ style countries, and it WORKS.
Not perfectly, but staggeringly better than the US has ever managed to achieve.
There is no for selfish libertarian-loons to speculate on the upcoming apocolypse caused by socialised medicine. The multiple experiments prove that it can only improve matters.
The Congressional Budget Office analysis says that this bill will reduce the US deficit by $143 billion over a decade. Given your statement, I presume that you must have solid evidence that their analysis is wrong — certainly you wouldn’t just be pulling that claim out of your butt, right?
Well, other than the fact that a government entitlement has never reduced the budget, and aside from the fact that the CBO estimates are based on proposed future acts of congress, acts which congress has heretofore rejected (like reducing the Medicare payment rates to physicians) (http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/113xx/doc11376/RyanLtrhr4872.pdf), if Obamacare did reduce the deficit by $143 billion, it would still leave us with over a 105 trillion dollar debt; i.e. it doesn’t really change anything regarding our future liabilities.
if Obamacare did reduce the deficit by $143 billion, it would still leave us with over a 105 trillion dollar debt; i.e. it doesn’t really change anything regarding our future liabilities.
You claimed that it would be “ adding additional grinding debt”, so yeah, the CBO finding that it will decrease the deficit means you’re profoundly incorrect on that point. Shifting the debate to “but it doesn’t solve the entire US debt problem” is hugely disingenuous, and a complete non-sequitur, since if every bill passed did as much to fight the debt as this one does, there wouldn’t be a debt problem. Honestly, it’s like conservatives can’t do basic math.
You didn’t just move the goalposts, you pushed them onto the baseball diamond.
Well, as I made clear, it would only reduce the debt if a number of assumptions and claims were in fact true, such as:
This being the first entitlement program ever to not lose money.
Congress cuts Medicaid payments to doctors in the future, despite consistently refusing to do so in the past.
Congress somehow discovers $500 billion dollars in ‘waste, fraud. And abuse’ in the Medicare system, something it could have been doing for some time now, but never has.
They actually enact a highly unpopular (and unevenly applied) tax on high-end insurance policies in eight years.
So if one has the faith of tele-evangelist (or liberal, apparently) then yes, this plan will magically reduce the deficit.
Here on earth though, I would be willing to bet my next house payment (or next tax bill, which ever costs more) that it will just add to an already crushing debt.
Congrats to the U.S. for finally joining the rest of the western world! I’m Canadian and this also a great day for us because it puts these blood-sucking insurance companies on their heels so they can’t target us anymore.
I remember when Canada brought in universal health care in the early 1970’s there was the same doom-sayers and hand-wringers. (Although we’ve never been inflicted with Fox News.) Our current government is much like the last Republician government in the U.S. but they know if they tried to dismantle universal health care in Canada that it would be the end of their political party.
My parents are both in their 80’s and it good to know that if either one of them got seriously ill that we wouldn’t have to get massively into debt to help them. We don’t have any bureaucrats that decides who gets what treatments. We don’t have any bureaucrats who make more money by denying people healthcare.
Good luck
When you live in countries where health care provided by the state is taken as a natural human right for everyone it is hard to understand the incredible stupidity of a large segment of the US population.
Is it greed, is it fear, is in misunderstanding, or is it stupidity that makes socialism a dirty word in the US?
Socialism sure works fine in most Western democratic countries including Australia and New Zealand, and is so ingrained in everybody’s psyche that we take it for granted that it has to be a fair degree equality to have a good society.
So congrats US, seems like all your citizens are coming into the First World.
Now if you can curb the excesses of the gun nuts also . . .
I would say that most people in those countries would not regard universal healthcare as a form of socialism. It just seems the best way, in terms of outcome and cost, of providing healthcare. It is a pragmatic adherence, rather than a dogmatic one.
Canada’s Prime Minister has a picture of George Bush on his ass, do you think he’s a socialist for having universal healthcare?
Maybe Obama can do something about the guns now, he could start by pulling the Oozy out of Charlton Heston’s cold, dead hand!
That’s Uzi, not Oozy. Not that a Canadian would know that.
By now, Charlton’s hand could be very oozy indeed.
True, though why Obama would be obliged to remove the ooze is uncertain. Perhaps he wants to tax it?
Why do people who advocate reason and study abandon it for ad hominem, prejudice and hatred when it comes to politics?
Studied willful ignorance ex propaganda.
I feel especially lonely today as an atheist Republican.
I was a Republican until they found out I was an atheist. Then they kicked me out.
Why, Andrew? This is not about flying your tribe’s flag, be it Democrat or Republican. This isn’t a game. It’s about people. People who need healthcare. This is a good day for everyone, including you.
“Congrats to the U.S. for finally joining the rest of the western world!”
Me too!
[Well, technically I gather it is very different form most nations public health care systems. But at least it will cover most people, and has the potential to eventually drive the costs down to western world levels.]