Again? Phil Zuckerman wins debate with Christian, church refuses to post video

October 23, 2013 • 12:32 pm

Sound familiar? Phil Zuckerman, a professor of sociology at Pitzer College in Claremont, CA, who studies the geography and sociology of atheism (he wrote Faith No More: Why People Reject Religion, Atheism and Secularity, and Society Without God), is asked to debate Christian author David Marshall at Adventure Christian Church in Sacramento.

The topic: “What provides a better foundation for civil society, Christianity or Secular Humanism?” Zuckerman, of course, took the secularist stand.

The preparation was arduous: months of work for everyone. And, as Zuckerman reports at PuffHo, everything was in order. They had agreed to film the debate and post it on Vimeo, and even provided the speakers with nice noms.

But then the unexpected happened: Zuckerman won.

You can imagine what happened next. As he reports:

And so we had the debate. And I won. Now, that’s not my opinion — its the opinion of Adventure Christian church, because they now refuse to post the video on-line.

Instead, what they’ve done is post a series of rebuttals to the debate — refutations and criticisms. But they won’t post the actual debate. And they’ve disabled my ability to even comment on their posted refutations.

When I called pastor Bryan, and asked him why they are refusing to post the video — even after repeated promises of doing so — he replied, “It just didn’t go the way we wanted it to go. We were not represented well.”

Shades of John Haught! Except his excuse was that he didn’t want to subject the viewers to the odious spectacle of me saying bad things about Catholicism.  And, like me in the Kentucky affair, Zuckerman was blindsided:

I was actually quite stunned by Adventure Church’s not keeping their word and being so cowardly. And I shared my dismay with my friends, family and students. But then, yesterday, one of my students came up to me and said, “I’m stunned that you’re so stunned.”

“What do you mean?” I replied. “They were such nice people. And they repeatedly assured me that the debate would be put up on vimeo. Now they won’t do it.”

“Clearly you don’t know a lot of Evangelicals,” she replied. “Sure, they’re very nice. But if you say anything that goes against their party line, you’re out. They can’t handle debate, they can’t handle real dialogue. It doesn’t surprise me at all that they won’t show the video.”

This is why this form of Christianity is inimical to democracy. I can’t imagine Zuckerman, myself, or any other debating atheist refusing to allow the debate to be aired—no matter how bad our performance was.

Imagine what these Christians would do if they turned America into the theocracy they want!

They are indeed afraid to air the underling truth of my position: that no civil society can thrive if it does not exist upon a bedrock of democracy, and democracy is not a Christian value — it is not articulated anywhere in the Gospels, nor is it promulgated, in any way, by Jesus or Paul. Rather, democracy is a secular humanist ideal — something dreamed up and established by and for people.

Over at his website, Christ the Tao, Marshall gives his own interpretation. While admitting that the church agreed to post the debate, he disputes Zuckerman’s interpretation, and even claims that he (Marshall) had the better argument. Note as well that he uses the Haught Evasion: maybe the video was deep-sixed because Zuckerman was too nasty to faith!

[Zuckerman; And so we had the debate. And I won. Now, that’s not my opinion — its the opinion of Adventure Christian church, because they now refuse to post the video on-line.]

[Marshall]: First, I’m not sure that’s the correct explanation for their peculiar actions.  It may be that they didn’t feel I supported their theological views as well as they expected.  It may also be that while both sides offered some good arguments — as both sides did, though I think I had the better ones — the pastors felt that something Phil said might somehow undercut the faith of some listening.  Which seems kind of lame to me, especially since the next morning I preached on boldly and fearlessly engaging with the world.  (“Step out of the boat!”)

But even if the senior pastor thought Phil had the better of the argument, of course it would not make it so.  There are people who always see their own side as winning, and even vote for, say, Alex Rosenberg over William Lane Craig, or think Romney did well in his second debate.  But there are also people in whose eyes opposing arguments loom large, and there are lots of other people who just aren’t qualified to judge.

Honestly, I don’t think anyone who believed Phil wiped up the floor with me in terms of arguments, understood what was going on.  Phil didn’t even attempt to answer most of my main arguments.  And they weren’t exercises in trivia.

Let’s hope the unadventurous Adventure Church finally gets some guts and posts the debate. For right now they’re looking pretty stupid—and pusillanimous.

Debate/discussion: Krauss vs. Craig

August 30, 2013 • 7:57 am

UPDATE:  It appears now that the first and third parts of the debate are posted at this link, but I don’t know where part 2 is. They’ve also separated the interviews with Krauss and Craig from the onstage exchange. The Bible Society also has written interviews with Krauss and Craig about the debate.  An excerpt from each:

[Interviewer]: What is your best evidence there is no God, and what’s the best evidence there is a God?

Craig: Well, I would say that the best evidence that there is a God is that the hypothesis that God exists explains a wide range of the data of human experience that’s very diverse. So it’s an extremely powerful hypothesis. It gives you things like an explanation of the origin of the universe, the fine-tuning of the universe, of intelligent life. But also the presence of mind in the cosmos, an objective foundation for moral values and duties, and things of that sort—it’s a wide range of data that makes sense on a theistic worldview.

In terms of the atheistic argument, I think probably the argument on the hiddenness of God would be the best. That God seems so absent sometimes when we need him most. And I think that one response to that hiddenness is to say, well he’s not there. And so that would be, I think, perhaps the best argument that the atheist might offer.

and

[Interviewer]:  What is the most persuasive argument that Professor Craig has; the hardest to refute?

Krauss: I’ve never heard one. I mean, they’re all subtle. I once said to someone, an old line from a Dick Van Dyke show: ‘what on the surface seems vague is in reality meaningless’. The point is that what [Craig] likes to do is take what may sound well defined, and it’s really sneaky. Back in Brisbane I showed a video of a guy nowhere near as subtle or smart as William Lane Craig, arguing that Jesus holds protons and neurons together, and it’s just laughable. But Craig does it much more subtly. It starts like it’s well defined and then he does some tricks.

I find… I will admit… I do believe, that in spite of the fact that I think he knowingly abuses science and other people’s arguments—distorts them— I think he does it because he believes in the end. He amazingly believes, wholeheartedly, in the scriptures. And I think his attitude is that because they’re right, anything goes to prove their right. But that’s not how we learn about the world.

We learn about the world by trying to prove ourselves wrong, not trying to find validation for our ideas. And that’s the dangerous idea that I want people to learn. It’s not just for religion, it’s for global warming and other important problems of our time. If you come into these problems knowing what’s right before even asking the questions, you’ll never get anywhere. So while Craig’s a good example of it, there are many others. Science teaches us to not trust our intuition and to be skeptical of ourselves as much as other people. And that I think is the most important thing.

________________

A few weeks ago, physicist Lawrence Krauss had a “conversation” (a more relaxed debate) with apologist and theologian William Lane Craig in Australia. It was actually in three parts, and called “Life the Universe and Nothing”.  The explanatory website is here, and gives the schedule, topics, and links:

Brisbane Aug 7
Has science buried God?

Sydney Aug 13
Why is there something rather than nothing?

Melbourne Aug 16
Is it reasonable to believe there is a God?

The first debate has now been posted, and reader Derek, who sent me the link, added this:

It almost seems like Krauss agreed to the discussion as an excuse to call out WLC on his dishonesty and distortions of science. The moderator is a little biased in favor of theology/philosophy, but I think LK actually did a good job and this was one of the few debates that wasn’t a clear win for WLC – the format helped as well, since it was more of a discussion and less timed podium switching.

The other videos should be up within a week or so – the word on the street is that Krauss dominated the final one in Melbourne.

I haven’t yet watched this, but I will. In the meantime, I won’t withhold it from the readers.  Do weigh in if you’ve watched the full two hours. The video begins with separate interviews with Krauss and Craig.

NOTE: if you can’t see the video here, just watch it on the Vimeo page. See “update” above for another link that includes part 3 of the debate.

Note: I don’t think I’m violating any rules by posting this, but the site notes that “The copyright for the Life, the Universe and Nothing videos is held by City Bible Forum. Prof Krauss has requested that these videos are not copied on to any device nor uploaded by anyone other than the City Bible Forum.”

The New York Times hosts a superfluous debate on evolution vs. creationism, including more dumb accusations that science is based on faith

August 17, 2013 • 9:28 am

In a “Room for debate” feature in yesterday’s New York Times, seven scholars and public figures weigh in on the question, “Should creationism be controversial?” It’s dispiriting because it’s a complete waste of space. No points are made that haven’t been made before, and the debate is largely about how we can deal with the supposedly discomfiting implications of evolution.

What’s even worse is that this debate was apparently inspired by Virginia Heffernan’s ludicrous essay on “Why I’m a creationist,” a piece that I critiqued a while back. Why on earth would a bunch of scholars debate such a juvenile rant?

I don’t want to summarize everyone’s short essay, but I’ll say a few words on each, and deal with two pieces that are particularly misguided.

The science can be seen as purposeful, by Karl Giberson, now at Stonehill College.  Refreshingly, Karl is one of the saner voices in this debate. He accurately singles out the reason evolution bothers the faithful: it implies that humans—nobody cares about the squirrels!—are just a contingent and unpredictable result of a naturalistic process, and not deliberately produced by God in his image:

Evolutionists have fought hard to make sure we understand evolution as lacking direction or purpose. The theory has come to be strongly identified with atheism. Its most public champion is Richard Dawkins, whom Ned Flanders met in hell on a recent episode of “The Simpsons.”

Biblical creationists have fought even harder to keep evolution — the atheists’ creation story — out of Genesis. Its most public champion, Ken Ham, imposes a wooden and implausible literalism on the Bible to ensure that nobody can fit evolution in between the lines.

On Main Street, on television and in the pews of America’s many churches, leaders on both sides portray a choice between a world with purpose and one without. The trouble is, when they ask that either-or question, there’s no right answer.

Yes, Karl, there is a right answer.  We evolved via an unguided process lacking purpose or foresight.  Humans forge their meanings, their “purposes”, on their own. We weren’t given them by God.

What we risk by accepting the science, by Douglas O. Linder, a professor of law at the University of Missouri-Kansas City School of Law. Move along folks, nothing to see here. Linder accepts evolution, recounts Darwin’s ambivalence about publishing his theory, and then affirms the truth of evolution.  He then raises a “challenge”:

Our challenge is to accept evolution while maintaining a sense of wonder, concern for those whose survival is beyond their own means, and a vision of a colorful and surprise-filled world.

That’s no challenge at all: those who accept evolution have no problem with this stuff. The problem is reconciling evolution with the sense of human specialness instilled by religion.

Science, too, calls for a leap of faith by Trevin Wax, managing editor of The Gospel Project, Wax makes a common error, also committed by David Redlawsk (see below): he claims that both religion and science rely, in the end, on faith.

Yet science neither proves nor disproves the existence of a creator. Evidence leads us only to a point, and then we draw conclusions. People like Heffernan look at the elements of our world that appear to be designed and purposeful, and conclude that a mind is supervising the matter.

Furthermore, as her article pointed out, even those who take the naturalistic point of view tend to live as if the creation story is true. We do not see our lives as meaningless, but purposeful. We live according to values and morals; we teach our children right from wrong. When we care for ailing parents or welcome children with birth defects, we are living against the “survival of the fittest” principle of natural selection. A purely naturalistic explanation of the world’s origins does not explain the way we live. Religious stories do.

The real issue here is not merely creation or the lack thereof; it’s about the source of truth. Those who condemned Heffernan believe science is the only reliable way to discover truth. But this belief in science collapses on itself: there is no scientific evidence to prove that science is the only reliable way to discover truth. Once we take unproven hypotheses and dogmatize them, we have moved beyond scientific evidence into philosophical reflection on truth and the scientific method. Naturalist or not, when it comes to the world’s origins, we are all in the realm of faith.

Well, science can’t “prove” anything, but it can make some things seem likely or unlikely. One of those is a creator, and the universe shows no sign of such a being. But it shows definite signs of not being created by a benevolent, omniscient, and omnipotent being.  How can invoking such a god explain “natural evils” like earthquakes and childhood cancers? Science can explain those: geology and mutations.

As Victor Stenger always points out, the absence of evidence is evidence of absence if the evidence should be there.  This is precisely the reason why we don’t accept the existence of Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster.  You don’t hear people say, “science neither proves nor disproves the existence of Nessie.”

More important, Wax makes the elementary error of conflating religious “faith” with scientific belief. Here are two pretty accurate definitions of faith:

Walter Kaufmann: “Faith is intense, usually confident, belief that is not based on evidence sufficient to command assent from every reasonable person.”

Oxford English Dictionary (one of several definitions): “The spiritual apprehension of divine truths, or of realities beyond the reach of sensible experience or logical proof.”

I’d say that most religious people would agree with these, or at least the second.  Science, however, doesn’t operate on that kind of faith, but rather on belief or confidence based on evidence (and evidence that is sufficient to command assent from every reasonable person).  Scientists and laypeople who trust science don’t get their “faith” from revelation or scripture, but from evidence that has passed critical scrutiny by other scientists.  And you don’t trust your doctor, or your next plane flight, based on revelation: you trust them because your doctor prescribes antibiotics based on data showing that they work, and you trust your plane because it’s designed on principles of aerodynamics.

Wax’s incursion into philosophy, which smacks of the odious Alvin Plantinga, leads him to claim that “there is no scientific evidence to prove that science is the only reliable way to discover truth.”  So bloody what? Experience, not a priori reasoning, has taught us that science is the only reliable way to discover truth, and so we rely on science and its attendant naturalism, rather than the lucubrations of religion, to discover how our cosmos works.  There are plenty of spiritualists and faith healers who derive their methodology from “revelation” (often the revelation that quackery makes you rich), but who trusts them? If you had an infection, would you take a drug that has been tested in double-blind studies to kill the bacteria, or would you go to a shaman or faith healer? Your chances of surviving are much higher if you go to the doctor. That is what the data show. We don’t need to justify this through a priori philosophical rumination.  The difference between a shaman and a doctor is the difference between scientific “belief” and religious faith. It is by the fruits that you distinguish them.

It is starting to really anger me that people like Wax make this elementary error, and it’s always made to drag science down to the level of religion. It’s a deliberate conflation of terms, because, in common parlance, you say you have “faith” in your doctor when what you really mean is that you have confidence that he knows how to help you.

The risk of reading literally, by Rev. Wil Gafney, an associate professor of Hebrew and Old Testament at The Lutheran Theological Seminary in Philadelphia. Gafney tell us to beware of reading scripture literally.  There is, he says, a way to do it that helps weed out error:

I teach students to consider three aspects, to shift from asking “is the bible true” to “how is the Bible true.” First, determine what the text says. This requires knowledge of original languages, because all translations are unreliable at points. Second, consider as much as possible what the text may have meant in its original contexts. This could mean learning which expressions were euphemisms and how language may have evolved before and after the text was written. And third, ask what the texts says in our modern contexts – which values and themes transcend time and which do not.

So tell me, Reverend Gafney, was Jesus resurrected or not? Is believing in him as savior going to guarantee us a place in heaven? And was he born of a virgin? True, Biblical analysis, combined with science and archaeology, can eliminate parts of the Bible as pure fiction, but people like Gafney always want to preserve some parts as literally true. The trouble is, his method gives us no way to determine which are the latter. There are few religious people who aren’t fundamentalists in some ways.

Save the umbrage; let’s talk calmly, by Salam Al-Marayati, executive director of the Muslim Public Affairs Council. This is just a flat-out defense of sharia law. As for its excesses, he blames them on government, political party, or “clergy group.”  But it’s the excesses of the clergy groups (i.e., radical Muslims) that has made sharia so odious.  At any rate, his apologetics are neither convincing nor relevant to the discussion on tap.

The story doesn’t have to be soulless“, by Mary Evelyn Tucker, senior lecturer and senior research scholar at the Yale School of Forestry & Environmental Studies and the Yale Divinity School.  Tucker pulls a sleight-of-hand here.  She extols the virtues of art, music, and literature, but manages to slip in “spirituality” (read: “religion”) as a way of appreciating science and evolution:

We need not, however, enter into simplistic debates that lead to endless conflict. Rather, we can bring science and the humanities together to explore a new synergy of scientific fact and human values. Recognizing that we are now understanding these evolutionary processes through science and appreciating them through art, poetry, literature, music and spirituality gives us an opportunity to discover our own role in this unfolding story.

This is feel-good pablum dispensed by somebody who hasn’t gotten out enough. The debates are not simplistic: evolution strikes at the very heart of many people’s worldview and self-image.  Reading John Donne or e.e. cummings isn’t going to magically dispel the controversy.

Who I am, and who I am not“, by David P. Redlawsk, professor of political science at Rutgers University. Finally, and infuriatingly, Redlawsk again conflates scientific belief with religious faith.  Really, are these people as clueless as they seem, or are they so blinded by their accommodationism that they can’t see the different ways that science and religion arrive at “truth”? (Well, I don’t believe religion does arrive at truth, but believers claim it does.)

Read and weep:

This journalist, Virginia Heffernan, writes that she does not even believe evolutionary theory, and its explanation of the rise of Homo sapiens. Instead she leans toward faith that the earth and humans were both created directly by God.

It looks like faith versus evidence. But the psychology is more complicated. Most of us – even those of us who practice science for a living – have to take an awful lot on faith. I’m not a biologist; I have never actually seen a microbe in person. But I believe in them. Likewise, I take it on faith when my doctor tells me a particular medication will work in a particular way to address a particular malady.

So why do I and others not believe in creationism? Why do I have faith in science? Part of it may boil down to identity and the internal motivations to maintain our identities in the face of challenges.

If that’s why you have “faith” in science, or in your doctor, Dr Redlawsk, then you’re on shaky ground. I just took two rounds of antibiotics because my doctor told me they have been shown to kill many gut bacteria. That had nothing to do with maintaining my identity, but with maintaining my gastric health. And, sure enough, when I went to the Internet to see what I was taking, it was precisely the stuff shown to be generally efficacious against many gut infections.  Sure, not everybody does that, but trusting your doctor is not the same thing as having faith in your minister when he tells you that your kid needs to be baptized to be saved. My doctor has evidence, the priest has none.  Redlawsk goes on:

An important part of my identity is the embrace of the scientific method. Those who do not share this seem quite misguided to me. I simply cannot understand how one can deny science – like evolution – but still accept that a doctor with modern medicine developed through the scientific method can cure a disease. Identification as a creationist seems to be equally at odds with identification with science.

For the most part, to accept the other’s position would be to challenge one’s own identity, the sense of who we are. Yet there is a certain irony that both sides in this debate are taking their positions mostly on faith, drawn from teachings we did or did not accept over time. And we are doing so, probably because this faith reinforces an identity that says “this is who I am.”

This is pure postmodern bullpucky, claiming that what’s important is not evidence but our own self-image.  Yes, evolution does attack a lot of people’s self-image, but I don’t accept evolution, or antibiotics, because “that’s who I am.” I accept them because I want evidence for the things I believe. Science has it, religion doesn’t.  And those who line up with science are not doing so based “mostly on faith.”

Hey, you apologists, accommodationists, and religionists, could you please stop trying to drag science into the benighted realms of religion by claiming they’re both based on faith?

The 10 atheists “most wanted to debate” list, and the defeasibility test

August 16, 2013 • 6:07 am

From some organization called Dare2Debate.net, which I don’t know but seems loosely affiliated with the late Duane Gish, we get a list of the ten atheists most wanted for debate.

Their “challenge”:

Objective: To schedule and promote a one-day Creation Conference to be held in conjunction with each proposed debate.  Each conference will be held on a Saturday from 11:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. and the debate, if it happens (if the opponent accepts the challenge), will take place that night in the same facility.  The conferences will be held in the following cities….

Norman, Oklahoma @ the University of Oklahoma

They give a phone number.

To accept the challenge, call 1-877-2DEBATE.

When you call it (I called via Skype just to check), you get a message that “You have dialed a number that cannot be reached.”  I suppose that’s a metaphor for the mentality of these creationists.

Picture 2

What good company I’m in! But I’m sad that they could find nothing better to pwn me with than this: “Jerry Coyne, professor of biology at the University of Chicago, runs a web site [at least they got that right] called ‘Why Evolution is true’ and has written a book entitled the same.” OMG: I’m humiliated! At least they could have dumped on me the way they did on Pinker: “With a smug look and condescending voice, Harvard professor Steven Pinker says, ‘The idea we were put here for some purpose is ignorance. . “.  Of course, anybody who knows or sees Pinker realizes that he doesn’t produce smug looks, and his voice is not condescending but passionate. 

What am I afraid of? Nothing, you lamebrains, except that debates aren’t the way to settle the question of evolution, which we already know is true. They are exercises in rhetoric and showmanship, with the creationist debaters engaging in the “Gish Gallop,” as Genie Scott called it.  I much prefer to engage the questions of creation vs evolution in either public lectures (where I do take questions) or, preferably, in print, as in the article I wrote on Intelligent Design for the New Republic, “The faith that dare not speak its name.” That brought me literally hundreds of  positive emails from readers and effected several conversions to evolution.

With articles, books, or longish lectures, the reader/viewer can contemplate the issues at leisure, which is really the only way to come to weigh the evidence dispassionately.

Oh, and debates give creationists an undeserved credibility. It’s like debating a homeopath or a flat-earther.

I received the most wanted list from professor Peter Boghossian, also one of the “wanted,” who was bursting with pride (“We made it!” he crowed).  When I asked Peter if he’d ever consider such a debate, he responded, “I don’t debate anyone until they’ve passed the defeasibility test.”

The test was devised by Matt McCormick, who defines it thusly:

So in the spirit of John Loftus’ Outside Test for Faith, I propose a test.  Before I or any other doubter, atheist, skeptic, or non-believer engages in a discussion about the reasons for and against God, the believer must look deep into his heart and mind and ask this question:  Are there any considerations, arguments, evidence, or reasons, even hypothetically that could possibly lead me to change my mind about God?  Is it even a remotely possible outcome that in carefully and thoughtfully reflecting on the broadest and most even body of evidence that I can grasp, that I would come to think that my current view about God is mistaken?  That is to say, is my belief defeasible?
If the answer is no, then we’re done.  There is nothing informative, constructive, or interesting to be found in your contribution to dialogue.  Anything you have to say amounts to sophistry.  We can’t take your input any more seriously than the lawyer who is a master of casuistry and who can provide rhetorically masterful defenses of every side of an issue.  She’s not interested in the truth, only is scoring debate points or the construction of elaborate rhetorical castles (that float on air).
In all fairness, we must demand the same from skeptics, doubters, and atheists.  They are just as guilty of conflict if they rail against religious beliefs for lacking rational justification, but in turn there are no possible considerations that could ever lead them to relinquish their doubts.

Peter considers this idea to be one of the “most important to come down the pike in a long time.” And I do think that Loftus’s related argument, in which he says that believers must apply the same standards to their own faith that they use when rejecting other faiths, is a great contribution to the science/religion debates.  And do note the last paragraph of McCormick’s quote, which argues that an evolutionist can debate only if you’re open to evidence and argument against evolution—and presumably for religion.  Well,  as I’ve always said, I am open to evidence for God and the truth claims of particular religions, and I’ve specified what would provisionally convince me of their existence. And all evolutionists are open to good arguments against the fact of evolution.  We just haven’t seen any. (Some, like P. Z. Myers, have specified that there is no evidence of any sort that could convince them of a god’s existence, and we differ on this issue.)

But you couldn’t convince me of these things in a debate: it requires lots of documentation and observation that isn’t on tap in a short exchange of views.

Peter added this in his email, ” [If] someone wants to debate you, just have them take the defeasibility test. 100% of potential debate opponents will go away.”

There I don’t agree, and for two reasons.  First, some believers claim that they are open to changing their minds, and have given on this website the evidence that would convince them.  (Whether one believes them or not is another issue.) In fact, many believers, including former pastors like Mike Aus, Jerry DeWitt, John Loftus, and Dan Barker, have given up religion when they rationally considered the arguments against it.

So I don’t think that 100% of opponents will go away.

Second, those opponents, since they’re already practiced in lying for Jesus, have a strong incentive to lie about accepting the defeasibility test so they can get you on the platform with them.

The fact is that debates are not the place to settle issues of science. I would no more debate a creationist than I would debate a fellow scientist in public about whether speciation is largely sympatric (occurring in one area) or more often allopatric (occurring in populations separated by geographic barriers). Such debates occur, and the issues weighed and often settled, in public lectures and scientific papers.

If you want to debate me about evolution, just read my book and publish a written response.  Good luck.

Robin Ince on why we don’t need religion

August 12, 2013 • 7:34 am

On his eponymous website, Robin Ince—comedian, writer, and co-host of the popular “The Infinite Monkey Cage”—has a nice piece on “Do we need religion to be a decent society“?  He’s an atheist, so of course the answer is “no!”.  The post is actually Ince’s notes for a debate he had two days ago:

On Saturday, I took part in an Intelligence Squared debate at Wilderness festival. The debate was “The world needs religion, just leave God out of it”. For the motion were Selina  O Grady and Douglas Murray, against, Peter Atkins and Myself. 

I am glad to say we won.

I won’t summarize Ince’s points in detail, but was pleased to see that he agrees with me on two points. The first is that religious societies aren’t the most functional ones, despite the frequent claim that religion brings societal health:

…why does the USA have murder rates five times worse than Japan and Sweden (the Republic of Ireland is only about 40% worse) , incarceration almost 10 times worse than Sweden, a higher suicide rate amongst the young (and as Al Alvarez wrote in his study of suicides, The Savage God, the more religious the nation is the less likely it is to declare suicide as cause of death), The US has Twice the mortality amongst under fives than Japan and Sweden, Rep of Ireland is slightly less than USA on under 5 mortality, and let us not forget the statistics on sexual disease and abortion, number one for gonorrhea, number one for syphilis and number one for abortion, and we are not talking by a little bit, we are talking 40 to 50 times more than Japan and Sweden. Thank goodness the USA has religion, or imagine what state it would be?

If religion has lauded powers of altruism, empathy and community, surely the most religious nation on the rich nation list should not be so low on the successful qualities of life scale?

In fact, as sociologists have demonstrated, there’s a strong negative correlation between societal health and religiosity. Now this is a correlation, not a demonstration of causation, but other studies suggest that it is causal in this way: when people get more disenfranchised and poorer, when income inequality rises and free medical care declines, when incarceration and venereal disease increase, and so on, societies become more religious. And that increase in religiosity follows in time the decrease in societal health, suggesting the direction of causality.

Second, and also like me, Ince sees social reform as the solution to religion:

Before we go running to the advertising agency and ask them to brainstorm this godless religion of delight and get it up on the billboards, we should look at where so much of societies problems may come from, and that seems to be inequality far more than lack of dogma, tribalism or religion.

While Sweden and Japan and are amongst the four nations with lowest income inequality, the USA is the highest. Sweden and Japan are the lowest on the health and social problems list , while the USA is, by some long way, the highest. This is true on child well-being too. Religion sounds like a nice thing for a nice society, but the evidence is just not there. Values can exist without religion as their anchor.

Religion is a much easier answer than the politically and economically difficult issue of creating a more equal society.

Ince ends this way—precisely the way I finish many of my talks on the problem of religion and how to dispel it:

Religion may have once been the opium of the masses, but can’t we build a better world where the opiates and illusions are not required at all.

On that issue Marx had it right. I’d like to see somebody make a tee-shirt that said, “No, religion is not here to stay.”

h/t: several readers who pointed Ince’s piece out to me.

Dan Dennett and Andrew Brown have a quick chat

July 23, 2013 • 6:39 am

Here’s our favorite avuncular atheist, Dan Dennett, engaging in a five-minute debate at the Guardian site with our most despiséd faitheist, Andrew Brown. The topic is  “Do the New Atheists have any new ideas?

It’s short and sweet, and Dennett admirably keeps his cool. (Notice, though, the piercing gaze that lasers out of Dan’s Santa-like visage when Brown says something stupid.)

Among Brown’s amusing claims are that there’s nothing new in New Atheism (Dennett’s response is that “What we [the New Atheists] gave [the American public] was permission to declare their lack of interest in religion”); that New Atheism is a “quasi-religion” that engages in “heresy hunts” (Dennett really takes Brown down on this one); and the assertion that if moderate religionists provide cover for more extreme ones, as some New Atheists claim, so the”good atheists” provide cover for the “bad atheists” (e.g., Communists).

Oh, and the readers’ comments are heartening.

Invitation to a debate

July 11, 2013 • 2:25 pm

I got this email a short while ago from a religious publisher:

Dear Dr. Coyne,

My name is [name redacteed] and I lead the [name of division and publisher]. Dr. William Lane Craig is one of our authors and we are planning to organize a debate next April or May in Chicago, and would like to invite you to participate as his opponent.  I let Dr. Craig know that I was planning to contact you, and he welcomes the opportunity to debate, and has suggested this topic:  Are Science and Religion Incompatible?  We think this will be a good opportunity for two opposing positions on this issue to have a fair hearing, and to benefit a wide audience both in person and online.

If you’re interested we can discuss additional details, but I wanted to first share the idea and hear your thoughts.

Thanks, Dr. Coyne.
[name redacted]

My response:

No thank you. It would look good on his c.v., but not so good on mine.

 jac