The New Zealand radio station “The Platform” had me on yesterday for a 25-minute segment on the country’s attempt to teach Mātauranga Māori (Māori “ways of knowing”) as coequal with modern science. The host, Michael Laws, did a pretty good job, though he thought I was in New York,. Click on the screenshot below to listen to my thoughts and Laws’s questions. As usual, I can’t stand to hear my voice, which seems unduly nasal, and the sound quality on my end isn’t so great because I was at home using my landline (first time in years). Finally, my cellphone rang at the beginning of the interview because I forgot to turn it off.
That said, as I recall I said what I needed to say, and I thought the bit at the end about racism was appropriate.
As you might guess “The Platform” is a bit heterodox and goes against the local Zeitgeist, so you could think of it as New Zealand’s radio equivalent of “The Free Press”. I may have been preaching to the choir, but right now that’s the only way you can even be heard in New Zealand.
Click to listen (there may be a slight delay after you click before you get to the site):
Cool
FYI I like PCC(E)’s vocal sound for this. Let it not inhibit the flow of thought!
The issue was very well covered. I hope many New Zelanders were listening.
Excellent. Particularly as you were on landline/audio only and did not have the now normal extra dimension of video.
When discussing racism, I seem to recall that you often have talked about accepting and respecting MM and indigenous cultures, but with that information taught in anthropology or sociology curriculum, and not science curriculum. I did not hear that in this discussion, but think it adds a significant dimension of respect for pre-science peoples when it is positively placed in a niche and not just discounted as not science. I know that it is hard in real-time conversation.
Also I might try to see where these spiritual ways of knowing would fit into a history of philosophy course.
Yes, I said it in this discussion. Clearly, I thought!
Yep. I apologize. I re-listened and at about 19:50, you did say it very clearly. Must have had a senior moment blackout on first listening. I know that that is your position…just missed it first watch.
The Maori spiritual ‘ways of knowing’ belong in anthropology. Not in philosophy. They do not fit into a history of philosophy course except as an example of a pre-philosophical mythological tradition, like the Orphics or the cosmogenies in Hesiod.
Thank you Jerry for your push-back on this. It seems that any and all primitive superstitions and assertions are and must be accommodated with open arms nowadays. I’m reminded of the saying: “Don’t pray in my school, and I won’t think in your church.”
“Don’t pray in my school, and I won’t think in your church”….excellent!
Well done! It appears that your host has a platform in New Zealand, meaning that at least some people are willing to speak out—or provide others a platform to speak out, you in this case. Are people like your interviewer at risk of repercussions? Of firing by superiors, of cancellation by the public, of deplatforming by social media outlets? Is there a broad climate of censorship in New Zealand?
No, the whole station is laid back and pretty much heterodox. There are also some websites like that. As for the public response to The Platform network, I have no idea.
The Platform was set up just over two years ago with the intention of giving a platform to all views, especially those seldom or never heard on mainstream media. There is no imposed censorship in NZ but media ignore anyone considered socially conservative, or against “woke” thinking on race or gender. Voices from the left and the right regularly feature on The Platform – credible views appear regardless of whether show hosts agree with them. It’s been a great addition to the NZ media landscape and has a significant audience.
Does anyone ever mention that the Maori had not come up with the wheel at the time of first Western encounter? That might seem to reflect on how special the special ways are.
So wheels are colonialist?
Pre-European Maori had no wheel, had no written language, had not even developed pottery, and regularly engaged in inter-tribal genocide, slavery and cannibalism. Their lives tended to be, as Hobbes wrote, “nasty, brutish and short”.
But the narrative now is they lived a life of semi-divine, bucolic domesticity before the evil Europeans arrived with the express intention of corrupting and destroying them. If you dare oppose this line, you risk a lot.
I very much enjoyed listening to the interview! Excellent answers and explanations, full of clarity.
Excellent interview. Well done.
I wonder if New Zealand is further along than Canada or the US because there are so many different tribes in North America, all with their own legends and traditions.
Excellent interview about a disturbingly widespread issue (it goes beyond New Zealand). The racism card is a cheap jibe aimed at silencing dissent and needs calling out. But what really annoys is the patronizing attitude of, in this case, contemporary proponents of Maori mysticism and their attempts to impose it on the general population. When these mystical conclusions were arrived at those who created them were trying to make sense of the world around them with no realistic opportunity of arriving at modern scientific answers. In other words they were doing the best they could given historical constraints. They, and their conclusions are not the problem. To suggest that they would have come up with the same answers had they had access to modern scientific means is insulting to them.
Well done! I’m glad you mentioned that there are many indigenous ways of knowing around the world. In certain countries, it’s presented as if there is only one.
They should ask themselves why a student from another country should be required to learn in a science class about that one indigenous way of knowing among all the others.
I enjoyed the interview. Most people hate the sound of their recorded voice, but to my ear you sounded fine, and more importantly said reasonable and important things.
Sadly, I don’t think the interview will have much impact here, or stir up a wider discussion. The Platform is fairly niche, I think, and I’ve seen no mention of the interview in more mainstream media.
That was a kick! The host obviously enjoyed having you on. I don’t have any real skin in the game, but greatly admire your candor and the passion behind your intentions which are simply to defend science! Can’t get any purer than that. Also, you don’t sound funny at all. What I’m always taken by when I hear you speak is how damn fast your delivery is. The stuff just rolls out of you. Good stuff.
Edit/add: It’s great you were able to address the issue of racism and how the label of racist gets lobbed at anyone who doesn’t toe the line.
Some notes from the field.
I asked my son, an engineering graduate from Auckland University, with woke tendencies but sound on science, if he could stomach listening to anything involving The Platform and Michael Laws, as I’d be curious to know what he’d think of our host’s interview.
His response: “A bridge too far for me I think”
I asked “The Platform or Jerry or both?” and he replied “Haven’t heard of Jerry so the platform. Can’t stand em”
My son’s final comment, after I’d pointed him to the articles on MM on this site:
“I’m not a big fan of it being taught, I’m sure there’s value in some of it but teach the bits that have an actual basis ”
My feeling is that pretty much everyone here would agree with my son’s final comment, but that pretty much no one knows what’s happening with regards to the onslaught on science in NZ.
FB won’t allow me to post a link – falls foul of community standards!