Here’s your chance to weigh in on the debate in the comments.
I’m watching the debate now, and have gone through an hour. It’s pretty bad: Biden wobbles and Trump lies. So far Biden isn’t totally out of it and has made some good points. But he does look as if age has taken its toll. He’s a good man—far better than Trump—but Trump is winning. Half an hour to go. Here are some “must watch” moments from the debate selected by CNN; the video 35 minutes long:
All I can say is this: I TOLD YOU SO! Every time I worried and kvetched on this site about Biden’s scary shows of incompetence and inscentience, some readers took me to task, even asserting that I was trying to promote Trump. To those folks: do you still think Biden is a good choice for President? You may say he’s better than Trump—and I will never vote for Trump—but how competent will he be in a couple of years? Seriously!
Well, last night’s debate vindicated me, but also terrified me, because Biden’s performance was apparently so appalling that Democrats throughout America are calling for someone to replace him as a candidate—at this last minute! Trump, meanwhile, blustered and lied a lot, but clearly came off looking better. We Democrats had better regroup! Ceiling Cat help us all!
Here’s this morning’s NYT headlines. You can read the stories behind the headlines on the top and left here, and here, respectively:
Here’s Nellie Bowles (a liberal) giving her take on the debate at the Free Press:
→ The debate happened: I don’t know where to begin. In my home we’ve been screaming at the TV for two hours as I write this. Biden walked on stiff, uncomfortable, strange. He held a bewildered expression throughout the night, his mouth slightly open, his eyes wide, staring off into the distance, rarely smiling. I won’t say Trump looked young (he isn’t), but he is less stiff and his eyes blinked normally, jaw firmly in control of mouth. And then they started talking. The extent of Biden’s cognitive decline is undeniable and, speaking as a citizen who wishes my president the best, devastating. For a strange moment as the debate went on, the entire media commentariat was in agreement: this is a disaster for Joe Biden, and the Democrats need to replace him.
Here’s Nicholas Kristof, éminence grise of progressive political commentators: “I wish Biden would reflect on this debate performance and then announce his decision to withdraw from the race, throwing the choice of Democratic nominee to the convention.” Here’s Kasie Hunt, CNN anchor: “The voice, open-mouthed look, and visual contrast between President Biden and former President Trump all have Democrats I’m talking to nearly beside themselves watching this debate.” Here’s top pollster Dave Wasserman: “This debate making abundantly clear that Biden’s insistence on running for another term. . . has gravely jeopardized Dems’ prospects to defeat Trump.”
The low moment for Trump was probably when Biden said Trumpo had “the morals of an alley cat” (great line). And Trump found himself saying: “I didn’t have sex with a porn star.” Which is just. I mean. With all due respect. . .
Low moment for Biden, other than overall presentation, was when his words became a nonsensical garble and then the camera panned to an alarmed-looking Trump for his response. “I really don’t know what he said,” Trump says. “I don’t think he knows what he said either.” Or maybe it was when Biden said, perplexingly: “We finally beat Medicare.”
High moment for both was the two of them fighting about their golf skills. Biden goes: “I got my handicap when I was vice president down to a 6.” Trump hits back: “That’s the biggest lie—that he’s a 6 handicap—of all.” Biden: “I was an 8 handicap and—and—” Trump: “I’ve seen your swing. I know your swing.”
And kudos to CNN’s moderators Jake Tapper and Dana Bush, praised by the left and right for being fair. Turning off the mics after each candidate hit their time limit was really smart, as was having no studio audience. It made for a calmer, more focused debate, and it made it harder for Trump to be a bully. But it still didn’t save Joe.
On CNN, Kate Bedingfield, Biden’s former communications director, said: “It was a really disappointing debate performance from Joe Biden. I don’t think there’s any other way to slice it.” Van Jones, close to tears, suggested Biden should drop out. CNN correspondent John King said senior Democrats are considering going to the White House to urge Biden to drop out. The most positive thing former Obama campaign chief David Axelrod could muster was to warn Republicans that if Biden did drop out, Trump might be in trouble.
I won’t fact-check here, but they both told huge and strange lies (Trump said Democrats allow killing children after they’ve been born full-term; Biden said the Border Patrol guys endorsed him). Maybe I’m slap-happy, but this random left-wing Twitter account made me laugh a lot.
In a last-minute scramble, Biden’s team leaked to friendly media: The President has a cold. The Biden after-party featured an extraordinarily animated Jill Biden saying to her husband: “Joe, you did such a great job. You answered every question! You knew all the facts. And let me ask the crowd, what did Trump do? He lieeeed!”
I think the question we all have to ask after tonight is simple: If this is Biden, who’s been running our country? Like, practically, who’s been doing the job job of it? Jill Biden? The White House handyman? The interns? Karl Rove? A random Houthi? I’m not mad, I just want to know. Because the people who have been pushing to keep him in office certainly know he’s this bad, and they must like it that way. Weak and confused, he can be used, kept as a pet moderate. Interns, release the old man, just tell us your demands, and we can figure something out.
All right, it’s the turn of readers to weigh in. What do you think? Did Biden really do that badly (I’m watching the debate as I write)? Should he be replace? (And isn’t it too late?). If you’re a Democrat, as most of us are, do you still plan to vote for Biden, or will you not vote at all for President (something I contemplate on and off in a state where Biden’s victory is assured)? And if you chewed me out for saying in earlier posts that Biden looked bad, you’re welcome to apologize! 🙂
Your opinion below, please, while I finish watching this debacle. And I’m adding a poll, so please vote, too
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Those of us who care for cognitively impaired elders know it only gets worse. We didn’t have to see the debate to question how President Biden will get through 4 more years. The President was humiliated last night and how Jill Biden can put her husband through this is beyond me.
I did not watch the ‘debate.’ Couldn’t find the gumption necessary. Yet from reading PCCE’s account, plus this morning’s news, I sense that everything I feared is true. One candidate is a decent man who’s past it; the other is a psychopath. To have watched would have been like watching a vivisection. Neither man should be the next president of the U.S.A. If this is the best that our sclerotic two-party system can do, there is little hope not only for democracy but for our nation-state.
Biden is not a decent man. He never has been.
He has consistently been one of the dumbest senators, and he seems completely unprincipled, just riding whatever the current political tide is. He lies almost as much as Trump does, sometimes much more outlandishly. (Remember when he claimed that he was arrested in South Africa for supporting Mandela?)
He was selected as VP only as a ‘diversity hire’ because Obama felt he needed the continuity/stability of having an old white guy on the ticket. And rode into office because he was running against the most unpopular president of all time during a pandemic.
He’d be unfit for office even without the senility.
I’ve never particularly been a Biden fan but this analysis is not fair. The reason he was chosen as VP was for his political experience, which Obama lacked, and that was undoubtedly valuable. And that has been on display in his term with his remarkable accomplishments in spite of Republican obstructionism. And, seriously, to compare his level of dishonesty to Trump is ludicrous.
Of course he’s never been a great orator, but he was much more coherent during the State of the Union. So either he’s had a rapid decline since then, or he really was ill.
Nevertheless, after last night, I do agree that he needs to step down. Trump now has damaging video clips that he can play on loop between now and the election.
It was obvious that Biden wasn’t all there during his walk to the podium and his answer to the very first question. He’s been like this for years when he’s not working off a teleprompter, so it was good that it was finally on display for everyone to see.
It could have been much, much worse for Biden. The prepping really did help him. But the few sentences he couldn’t finish, and Trump’s kill line, “I really don’t know what he meant at the end of that sentence; I don’t think he knows either” was the end of Biden.
And then the cringe video of Jill Biden talking to him after the debate like he’s an elementary school child, “You answered all the questions and you knew all the facts!”
America’s enemies were watching. Imagine what they thought when they saw how senile and feeble he was.
Trump was surprisingly well behaved. All the rules worked in his favor.
Please read the Roolz about dominating threads. So far you have a third of the comments on this one. Thanks.
If being “well-behaved” means, means constantly telling the other candidate he’s a terrible person, and the worst of the worst, refusing to answer questions, acting like a bully and doubling down on easily disapproval lies (porn star, the General), then you have a very low bar for what you think is a good look for a President.
Bowles “The debate happened”
No.
the 2024 presidential debate did not take place
(After
the gulf war did not take place
Jean Baudrillard
Indiana University Press
1995 )
What did everyone see? Yes, a president, yes, the president’s opponent. They spoke in response to each other. It was broadcast in various ways. Everyone ostensibly witnessed the same things. Opinion polls suggested there was a winner – winner of what? Political parties responded – responded how?
I think that last question says what actually took place.
Did it take place? Well, it’s not on the front page of the Paper Of Record, the NY Times.
I think to a certain degree Bowles is correct. If one looks back at previous debates, and how the participants responded to questions (or tried to), the level of information in this debate was exceedingly low. It was, more or less, name calling.
At least there wasn’t a yowling Whoop and Holler crowd.
If Joe is still in the race, I will vote for him. I think he needs to allow an open convention and release his delagates. The sooner the better.
That’s the most DNC solution imaginable.
“Don’t bother with primaries; we don’t care what ordinary people have to say. Just let elite delegates at the convention decide who our presidential candidate will be.”
How hard can it be to get some impression of “what ordinary people have to say” until the convention?
Ordinary people or ordinary Democrats? The polls seem to indicate that many of Biden’s policies are being rejected by ordinary people. Is the Democratic party capable of making a major course change with a different candidate? I don’t think that the people who run the Party are. There message has been that the people don’t understand.
I’m an ordinary person and I’m fine with the party selecting its candidate. I vote for a party and its platform.
+1
Trump lies and Biden tries.
Even scarier than that distinction is the contrast between the people Trump has lining up to serve under him in a second term and the quality of advisors Biden has around him this term. I would take Biden in his current condition than Trump any day.
Okay, so whom could Democrats pull out of the hat? Kamala has been a dud, Gavin Newsom has apparently made some questionable decisions in California… who else?
I really want to know why, in a country of 300 million, it’s so hard to find a presidential candidate who is smart, diligent, has common sense and integrity and is neither a sociopath nor borderline demented.
Richard, the sane normal people you describe are too grounded to run for president. It takes an enormous ego and supreme self-confidence to walk that road. Or a once in several centuries person like Abe Lincoln and if we have an Abe in the house he or she is lying low.
Jared Polis.
Harris is unfit. Newsom is too “progressive” and has not covered himself in glory in California. Gretchen Whitmer might also be a possibility.
Biden stepping aside would take a lot of the news cycle oxygen away from Trump. It would be the best thing he could do for the Democrats.
Don’t forget, these aren’t the only two candidates. Chase Oliver is on the ballot in enough states to win: https://www.votechaseoliver.com
Sherrod Brown. It would cost a Senate seat, but Biden’s leaden coattails might be enough to pull Brown down otherwise.
According to Ted Cruz, Michelle Obama.
I don’t have access to this but The Economist appears to have some ideas:
https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2024/06/29/who-could-plausibly-replace-joe-biden
Trump won the debate only from the perspective that he showed up and didn’t drool all over himself. It’s clear he would have lost against almost any reasonably adept politician…although I’ll reckon he would have escaped with a tie against Kamala.
I have no idea how the Democrats can recover from this. It’s too late for the party to regain it’s dignity. But as much as I still want them to lose, they have to at least try.
A President is to an extent a figurehead. He’s as good as the Administration he establishes. I would trust Biden to appoint a group of generally like minded individuals who have his basic beliefs and vision. Trump will ensure that his Administration are all clones ( think 100 Stephen Millers ) He won’t make the mistake of appointing people who will last 5 minutes before storming out of the White House saying ‘ He’s a f****** moron ‘ , or departing to write about the nightmare they’ve lived through.
I am British and live in the UK so I’ve no vote, but if I lived in the States, whilst not impressed with Joe’s ramblings, would nevertheless look at things this way and vote Democrat. Anyway, who’d want Trump as even a figurehead?
This is kinda meta but hear me out.
Sure the Whitehouse staff and the department secretaries are important. But the argument that “Biden [will] appoint a group of generally like minded individuals who have his basic beliefs and vision” just pushes the question back from “Can he be trusted to make good executive decisions” to “Can he be trusted to appoint people who will make good executive decisions on his behalf?” Who’s advising him on those appointments? How malleable is his decision making about this? Seems like a good argument for him to step aside. At some point the president’s ability (not just his values) does matter right?
Of course I’m not American so my opinion doesn’t matter.
“Of course, I’m not American so my opinion doesn’t matter.”
This is one of the reasons why I enjoy hearing voices like yours at WEIT. You are not infected by the partisan mind warp that can cause otherwise intelligent people to abandon tolerance, informed sensibilities, and rigorous reasoning. The “my side” bias can run very, very deep.
OK, I take your points. But I also am British and whilst I would be the first to acknowledge Sir Keir’s faults am impressed by Reeves, Cooper and Streeting who are likely to be respectively the Chancellor and Secretaries of State at the Home Office and Health. I think it likely Sir Keir will give each their head. He does not appear to be the sort of micromanager the last Labour PM, Gordon Brown, was.
Of course, the political and governance systems of the US and UK are different but broadly good management principles and procedures are equally applicable.
“Of course I’m not American so my opinion doesn’t matter.”
I’m all for any thoughtful, reasonable person on the planet rationally analyzing and holding forth on the U.S. and the error of its ways. Goodness knows we USers presume to hold forth to (if not lecture or arm-twist or regime-change) other countries on what they ought to do. From a strong field of examples from the last 70-plus years: Obama flying to Britain at taxpayer expense to lecture the Brits in person regarding Brexit. (When would the U.S. ever subordinate itself to an EU-esque organization?) At the same time, we don’t like other countries lecturing us. (Guess it’s that ol’ “American Exceptionalism.” Can never hear that collective ego-stroking phrase too many times.)
That debate was pretty painful to watch. I turned it off after Biden brought up the golf swing competition and Trump commented on how childish that was. Trump was right.
I will vote for Biden over Trump no matter what happens to Biden. Unless another Democrat can run which I hope for.
that golf sub-debate was amazing. i shouldn’t be finding entertainment or amusement in something so serious but i did enjoy that. what a spectacle.
this is almost enough to convince me that Jerry is wrong and that God surely exists and has quite the sense of humor.
On the poll here, Trump didn’t actually “win,” truth is America lost… “bigly.”
For anyone who follows the news and has eyes to see [“there are none so blind as those who will not see”], Biden’s incompetence and disdain for the welfare of this country, as well as that of the rest of his administration, has been visible since the day he took office. Now add to that galloping senility! Why it has taken so long for the truth of the latter to become recognized is a puzzlement (“The King and I”).
Biden’s performance was horrible for the leader of America. Really. It borders on elder abuse to put him on that stage. Dr. Jill’s comments to the post debate crowd were patronizing and frankly made me very uncomfortable (I was going to say sick, but that’s not quite the word). While it’s obviously true that his advisors have been running the country (to Mike H’s point), Biden is the guy who represents our country to the world, not his advisers. His cognitive state is bad now, and is only going to decline. “We finally beat Medicaid” – what? I cannot vote for that.
One weird thing that I picked up was that he touched his ear at one point, and the look in his eyes reminded me of when you’re trying to listen to something in your earbud – his attention seemed to be elsewhere at at times as if he were listening to something. Is it possible that he had an earpiece?
Trump was not as odious as I thought he’d be. True, my opinion of him is based mainly on truncated sound bites and editorials, but I have never liked him. I found him tolerable, and much more engaged and cognitively aware than Mr. Biden. I still don’t know if I’ll vote for him, but at least he’s on the ball. I would have said no before the debate, but I can’t in good conscience vote to put a senile man in the White House.
I thought the moderators did a good job, better than I expected.
The contrast between Biden’s performance at the State of the Union address and now is shocking. Admittedly, he had a teleprompter at the State of the Union, but even if you could ignore his elocution yesterday (awful), his affect tells all. His face was vacant, as if he didn’t really know where he was, and his weakness and frailty were on full display. The constant lies from his supporters about how sharp he is cannot save him now.
Biden is through. It’s sad, but he’s through. Think about it. In the few months since the State of the Union he has declined to the point where he is arguably not capable of finishing his first term. He clearly cannot serve for four more years.
The contrast between last night and today’s rally in Raleigh is also stark … the wonders of a good night’s sleep! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYghfyxtZnc
Biden did seem to have a cold or chest congestion last night, and wasn’t mentally nor verbally nimble, to say the least.
Sad to say, it’s better if he steps down now. It’s very sad, because when I ask myself whom I’d trust my grandchild with, the answer is clear: Biden. And never Trump, the sociopath, misogynist, racist, narcissist, twice impeached, convicted felon, adjudicated rapist, fraudster, with ~ 88 indictments against him, pathological liar, a common cheat, emperor wannabe, with a very high risk of recidivism, hopelessly and utterly self-serving.
I also perceive Biden as suffering from a broken heart over his son, Hunter. Any loving parent would be shattered by what’s befallen Hunter. Biden’s recent stumble could be a blessing in disguise, offering a chance to just focus on his family.
Remember how Nancy Reagan took charge protecting Ronald after he was shot by Hinkley? What the heck is Jill thinking? Especially the comment to her husband after the debate, praising him as one would a small child.
Any undecided voters left? The RNC can run that clip, with reaction shots of Joe, over and over and needn’t even mention Trump.
Trump won from the perspective that he could string words together to form sentences. Of course nearly everything he said was a lie, but half the country accepts those lies and doesn’t care if Trump lies. Biden had a huge fail as a candidate, even though he was the honorable one up there.
I don’t see an alternative in the Democratic ranks. Harris is a dud. Buttigieg could be a good president but this country will not elect a gay candidate as president. Gavin Newsom? Gretchen Whitmer?
I do see Trump as a serious threat to the USA and will vote for Biden if he is the candidate.
I’m not so sure Americans are opposed to a gay President. A Jew? Nope. An atheist? Certainly not? But a huge majority of Americans are in favor of gay marriage, and the stigma of homosexuality has largely vanished. I don’t see Buttigieg’s homosexuality as posing a big threat. A bigger one, perhaps, is his relative lack of experience. But he’s smart, learns well, and has done a very good job as Secretary of Transportation.
A very good job? What?
“The Federal Highway Administration says only seven or eight charging stations have been produced with a $7.5 billion investment that taxpayers made back in 2021.”
“Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg was mocked by conservative critics online after a video appeared to show security staffers unloading his bike from the back of an SUV so that he could “ride” to an April 1 Cabinet meeting.”
Train derailments. Boeing. Trucking industry in dire straits.
The guy is just a complete phony and empty suit.
You are clearly here just to troll.
“United wishes and good will cannot overcome brute facts,” Churchill wrote in his War Memoirs. “Truth is incontrovertible. Panic may resent it. Ignorance may deride it. Malice may distort it. But there it is.”
“Train derailments. Boeing. Trucking industry in dire straits.”
I had no idea that Buttigieg was CEO of all those industries.
Gotta disagree there, PCC(E).
Sure most of the US is cool with gay marriage/etc. — black Christian church ladies are NOT and without them we’re sunk.
Plus – much as I like Pete and he’d make a great pres, his sexuality would be the ONLY issue in town.
Interestingly, on the matter of LGBT, support has declined quite a bit (15% from memory) in the past 4 years. Many believe this is b/c of the trans cultural terrorists.
The debate was depressing.
While both teams support Israel (YAY!), only one is pro-Ukraine. Trump would sell Ukraine like a cheap steak. It’d be all over for Ukraine and that matters.
Americans do not vote on foreign policy at all – they generally don’t care – but it is the most important thing in the big picture for our future. The fight/s are civilizational.
D.A.
NYC
https://democracychronicles.org/author/david-anderson/
(I don’t write about presidential politics anymore. What’s there new to say?)
The Ukraine War began as a civil war between between the western Ukrainian nationalists and the eastern Russian-speaking Donbas and Crimea (which was historically always a part of Russia). The nationalists came to power following the US/NATO support of regime change in Ukraine. The war is ostensibly about the Donbas seceding from Ukraine and joining Russia, but it is really about NATO expansion up to the border of Russia. The desire of US and European politicians to embroil their countries in this “March of Folly” and brainwash their citizens into believing this is some sort of existential conflict justifying flirting with a nuclear third world war is just completely insane.
“President Bush also assured Gorbachev during their meeting in Malta in December, 1989, that if the countries of Eastern Europe were allowed to choose their future orientation by democratic processes, the United States would not “take advantage” of that process. (Obviously, bringing countries into NATO that were then in the Warsaw Pact would be “taking advantage.”) The following year, Gorbachev was assured, though not in a formal treaty, that if a unified Germany was allowed to remain in NATO, there would be no movement of NATO jurisdiction to the east, “not one inch.”” See “https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/02/15/the-origins-of-the-ukraine-crisis-and-how-conflict-can-be-avoided/”
Also, the 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest when the United States announced from on high that Ukraine (and Georgia) “would” [as a matter of course] become members of NATO.
Am reminded of Blinken high-mindedly saying to the effect at a news conference that the U.S. was all for countries joining whatever alliances they wished. That’s not true. Just let bordering Canada or Mexico (or Cuba and Grenada for that matter) (try to) make a similar alliance with a foreign power and see if the U.S. similarly beneficently holds forth in response.
“Trans cultural terrorists.” I’m stealing that.
Buttigieng would certainly be an interesting candidate given that he is smart, well-educated, religious, a veteran, and gay. The article below looked at how voters would perceive him in those different lights.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/10659129231194325
I watched the whole thing. It was not edifying. I went in with extremely low expectations for Biden, and he did better than I thought, which is to say, he looked like an old man who was struggling, but did not freeze-up or collapse.
Conversely, I went in with higher expectations for Trump. He’s had a lot of time to prepare. Just when I thought he was going to make a good point, he fumbled in not having actual facts. Trump was correct in the back-and-forth over the “good people on both sides” statement, in that is has been debunked, but he couldn’t even get out that it had just been debunked by Snopes. His personal idiom that everything he does is the best ever, and every thing others do is the worst ever is extremely grating, even for someone who agrees that the Biden Administration is the worst ever. He couldn’t name any of the women who’ve been victims of crime by illegal aliens. Very disappointing. Likewise, his continual use of successive questions as additional rebuttal time got old fast. I was surprised that the pundits thought he did so well.
It was just two old men accusing each other of being liars. Trump did look more hale than Biden. I doubt this convinced anyone who wasn’t already going to vote for Trump to do so. Perhaps this opened some people eyes to Biden’s physical condition, but was that a shock to anyone who was likely to watch? I think someone like Ted Cruz would have run circles around Biden.
I think the real winner was CNN. I went in with very low expectations for the moderators, and I think they were very fair and balanced.
90 minute debate; each candidate spoke for about 40 minutes
At least 10 minutes of Biden’s time was literal gibberish
However, neither candidate spoke in an intelligent manner, providing context and detail to their various assertions. Everything was ‘the best ever’, ‘the worst ever’, etc. Both claim to have been the best president ever for veterans but meant they were slightly better than the other while knowing neither had achieved anything as significant as the GI Bill.
I think back to all the presidential debates I’ve watch from 1980 to 2008 with candidates speaking calmly in complete sentences, providing facts in support of their arguments that could be verified or disputed.
We are truly living in the dumbest timeline, but only because we have allowed this to happen.
Unfortunately no present-day candidates are capable of following the format of the Lincoln-Douglas Debates and few would watch them. “O tempora, o mores.”
“The Lincoln-Douglas debates were a series of formal political debates between the challenger, Abraham Lincoln, and the incumbent, Stephen A. Douglas, in a campaign for one of Illinois’ two United States Senate seats. Although Lincoln lost the election, these debates launched him into national prominence which eventually led to his election as President of the United States. Lincoln and Douglas agreed to debate in seven of the nine Illinois Congressional Districts … In each debate either Douglas or Lincoln would open with an hour address. The other would then speak for an hour and a half. The first then had 30 minutes of rebuttal.”
Technology allowed this to happen, and The Media is all behind this binary hate fest. If it bleeds, it leads, and we’re all part of a fist fight that roughly 70% of us never wanted.
Choosing to not vote is not an option: every vote is a vote for democracy.
Having said that, I am bewildered by voting for an end to a democratic government. But, if you choose to not vote, please consider relocating to any country in which residents have no right to vote.
Three years ago I spent an entire work season with natural-born US citizens who did not vote. I have heard every lame excuse imaginable.
Six years ago I sat at dinner with a Sanders supporter who did not vote in the general election. When he began complaining about Mitch McConnell and “old men in the Senate,” I explained to him that he — and the progressives like him — got exactly the Supreme Court they “voted” for because their “moral aesthetic” prevented them from voting for Hillary Clinton.
Presidents are not kings, and, the powers of the executive office are administered by a team working with coalitions.
Choosing to not vote is not an option.
It certainly is an option. It would let the dem leadership know that while yes, we wouldn’t vote for Trump, we also are making it emphatically clear that forcing Biden on us, despite overwhelming disapproval from the dem voters, was a mistake. In the future, incumbents might not be automatically foisted on us. The country will survive four more years of Trump.
Biden wasn’t forced on you. The members of his party decided he had the best chance of beating Trump and decided not to run against him. Obviously they might be reconsidering now. But for a voter to decide to sit home because neither candidate meets their standards is irresponsible and a waste of vote. The country might still be here after four more years of Trump, but who knows what damage he will do? I remember back in 2000 how people claimed there was really no difference between the parties and it didn’t matter whether Gore or Bush was president. How wrong they were, and how wrong they remain.
In the 1970’s, the phrase “Love it, or leave it” had been pretty popular. That is why I suggested that people who do not wish to participate in a democratic republic seek residence in a country more to their taste.
I vote against incumbents in every primary where I have a choice. That is how you use a vote to complain to leaders in your party (if you are committed to one). Party leaders are not “punished” just because an election is lost. Most can move on to lucrative jobs as influence-peddlers or talking-heads that emphasize debate performance over policy consequences.
The people who are harmed are those directly affected by policy differences.
The men I have worked with for the last 20 years still think of abortion as a “women’s issue.” After Dobbs, I tried to explain that in “a perfect world” dictated by a government catering to religious fanatics, they might not be able to buy condoms,
https://www.aclu.org/documents/timeline-important-reproductive-freedom-cases-decided-supreme-court
They simply could not “wrap their head” around the fact of such a possibility. They are too young to imagine such an America.
Be my guest… punish some no-name “leadership” with abstension.
Just be accountable for the consequence of rash choices. Don’t pretend that some “they” that does not include “you” should take blame for “our posterity.”
Instead of relocating to a country without the right to vote, people could choose to relocate to a democracy that provides more than two options. The US voting system pushes a two party system. It doesn’t have to be that way.
+1
Let’s see who Trump picks to run with him. It’s the only other thing left that might change anyone’s mind. (Example: a Marjorie Green Taylor vs a Chris Christie.)
Never had a problem with Biden, until the Progressives started pushing their agendas and Democrats refused to answer “What is a woman?”
Citizens in a well-governed republic should have the luxury of ignoring politics because all parties know enough to changes things too much too quickly.
I agree with you that we no longer have that option.
I opt not to vote, thereby proving your assertion incorrect.
The Dow and the NASDAQ have opened slightly up. Normally, if anything at all bad happens, they knee-jerk decline, since one thing the markets dislike is uncertainty.
What does that mean? It means that the markets were already expecting a Trump victory and had priced it in, even before the debate. If they had been expecting a Biden victory, and had just had their applecart upset, then likely the markets would have opened down a percent or so.
It’s then worth noting that markets (that is, people putting their money where their mouth is) have a better track record of predicting outcomes than pollsters. So the markets are expecting a Trump victory and are not spooked by that.
This is puzzling since the past few recessions started when a Republican was in the White House.
I usually manage to “bite my tongue” (as my wife might instruct me when at family discussions) on matters over topics like this. I’m Not an economist, but I could possibly know how to play one on T.V. My view on ” which Pres. *Caused. which calamitous devastation and (considering “Biden’s gasoline price problems” began right after he took the Oath of office – methinks I have issues with such claims.
+1
yes, he really did do that badly. it was quite surprising because i felt that he won the previous debate against Trump. i wasn’t expecting him to perform this badly.
you can see Trump took this debate more seriously and prepared and imposed more discipline on himself. he seemed particularly vital in fact.
the key factor though was Biden’s decline. there is no plausible way to sweep his mental decline and general frailty under the carpet anymore. denial and obfuscation is not going to work anymore.
i remember being dismissed and insulted for being honest about Biden’s cognitive decline years ago too.
Now every time I hear someone claim that we must, “preserve democracy,” I’m reminded that democracy has given us these two candidates.
No, your voting system has given you these two choices. In other democracies you would have more than two options.
+1
+1
Canadian here.
If people on-the-fence do not vote for the Democrats, then they should expect another generation of conservative appointees to the SCOTUS when some of the elders retire.
If they can live with that direct and predictable consequence of not voting, then they get the SCOTUS they ‘ask for’ by not stepping up. IMHO
I’ll never understand why some people hang on until the bitter end rather than go out on a high note.
Biden is a selfish bastard. He could have bowed out gracefully months ago, and he would have been remembered fondly as a great Dem hero. Now, if Trump wins, Biden will have lived up to Obama’s words: “Don’t underestimate Joe’s ability to f–k things up.”
Doesn’t ex President Obama share some of the blame for Donald Trumps previous Presidency after he humiliated Donald Trump at the “White House Correspondents Dinner”? I seem to remember reading about this somewhere sometime ago.
I think Biden is beyond making such decisions, in contrast to Ruth Bader Ginsburg who really was a selfish power hungry bastard and made the decision not to step down under Obama all on her own.
I think the party apparatus wanted him to run as he seemed the safest bet as incumbent president.
So most of the people commenting here will support President Biden because the alternative is ex-President Trump. Okay. You are putting your faith in your Democratic team to carry the country for the next four years and that decision may be in our country’s best interest. Choosing a new standard bearer for this election cycle would be a better choice. Whoever wins will be at least one of the leaders of the free world and the world has only to watch the debate to take our country’s measure as a nation in decline. Ask for a better choice. Demand a better choice. Yell at the top of your lungs for a better choice. Step up for your country. We deserve that.
+1
Yes, Biden never should have run in the first place.
However, I for one don’t care about a President’s demeanor, personality, communication skills, appearance, family, clothes, or haircut.
All I care about are their policy choices and how they vote. The US presidency isn’t (or shouldn’t be) a personality cult. We just need a competent manager to run the country in a prudent manner.
Given that standard, the choice is clear.
Yes, no matter how bad Biden is, he is still the lesser of two evils. Perhaps, the Dems should replace him though.
The greatest loser of that debate is the country. Neither man is capable of running. People are in denial if the think they are. Trump could not answer a single question and would go on and on about migrants who are going to destroy the country. Biden was just sad I could not look it was cruel , we should not be doing this to him. We need two new younger people to run. I will never vote Trump he is dangerous for woman and will probably become a dictator 4 more years of him and the country will be destroyed but he may do something about all these college Dei nonsense and encampments. Since Oct 7th I have been battling with the Democrats and I was a die hard one. Right now I only like a few. What I really think, is we need an age limit for running for president. As a woman for me abortion and woman health is on the table as a Jew Israel is so no idea how to vote. I fear that if Biden will lose the Antisemite’s on the left will blame us for Trump winning and we will be facing even worse Antisemitism. So yes probably I will vote for Biden as I can not bring myself to, one waist a vote by not voting and then letting Trump win , two he is still the better bet at least he has a plan and answered the questions and I see Trump joining with Putin.
+1
I wonder if the maximum age at which one can run for POTUS should be the age at which one fully qualifies to draw Social Security. The problem there is that the age has been creeping up over the past couple of decades.\
Should there be a constitutional amendment resolving the age issue?
Not living in or having much vision of the USA and its news etc I watched the debate from curiosity and the first thing that really shocked me was seeing President Biden “walk” and I say that advisedly, onto the set. He reminded me vividly of my grandfather in the real decline of his life. He walks like the old man he painfully is and his voice and diction are further manifestation of his condition. Is this man really the President of the worlds most significant superpower? I was very embarrassed watching him.
Ex President Trump in comparison seemed very different and at least he was understandable when speaking notwithstanding the content. What a difficult voting choice, glad that I do not have to face this but I predict that Mr Trump will be the next President of the USA as do quite a number of my US friends and colleagues.
I agree with you. When I say this to some of my friends they are in such denial and can not think strategy they say it is a long time untile the elections or nobody wants trump or will vote for him . The Democrat party never thinks strategy. If they did they would pull Biden now and put someone like Richie Torres or Pete Buttigieg.
It how Trump won last time. It will be a tragedy to the free world if Trump wins again. I feel so powerless to not be able to stop the train wreck that is clearly coming our way.
I think yesterday’s public spectacle won’t make much of a difference, as the people who wanted to vote Biden are essentially voters against Trump, and for all but fans it has been obvious for a while that Biden is impaired some by age-related decline, perhaps Parkinson’s disease, and that he is one of the presidents who make no decisions or plans anyway, he has just been the ceremonial figurehead for this administration, as George W. Bush was of his.
Nellie Bowles (whose new book I just bought): “The low moment for Trump was probably when Biden said Trump had “the morals of an alley cat”. I’d say that was a low moment for both of them. Bill Clinton had the morals of an alley cat, too, so had J.F. Kennedy, and no Democrat ever deemed them unfit for office because of it. Cheap ad hominems should not belong in a debate like this.
+1
Keep an eye on SCOTUS. Yesterday they gutted some of the EPA’s enforcement
power and made a decision that could lead to releasing some of the Jan 6th rioters.
We miss Ken’s wisdom here.
The perspective of either of these men leading the planet through a world war makes me cringe. Still, Trump looks like the lesser evil. Biden’s strings are pulled by two hypocrites who are working for the enemy: Burns and Sullivan. Trump is mad and can sell us to the enemy but at least it will be quick, rather than the agony under the auspice of Biden.
Well, Trump will certainly sell Ukraine to the enemy.
We have no idea what Trump will do regarding Ukraine, and his unhinged promise, essentially “end the war with the blink of my magic eyelid”, doesn’t give us any. Both the current and the previous presidents of Ukraine campaigned on the promise of ending the war with Russia (the one that started in 2014), and see what happened. Poroshenko literally said he would end the war in a day when elected.
Apparently, regarding the U.S.-supported eastward expansion of NATO over the past couple of decades, in the eyes of our U.S. masters an ounce of prevention was not at that time worth a pound of cure.
The U.S. has sent thus far not a few billions of dollars to Ukraine. For the record, are you willing to state whether the U.S. should send U.S. military service members in harm’s way against Russia? Are you prepared to lecture a classroom of U.S. high school juniors and seniors that they ought to join the military to thusly go in harm’s way?
I watched the debate on RFK’s Twitter feed, where he answered the questions alongside the two primary candidates. Say whatever you want about the man—and I know how the former liberal darling is now despised by his longtime camp—but his grasp of details shames the other men. Hell, a good high school debater could shame the other men.
Those of us here who have been long arguing that we need better choices are generally scoffed at by the partisan crowd. Well, here we are. The party of “fight voter suppression” and “our democracy” shoved through a farcical primary contest after they anointed Biden and told us not to believe our lying eyes. They are currently spending significant cash and effort challenging other candidates and trying to keep them off the ballot. And, now, we have talk about an open convention. Yes, by all means, let’s just rubber stamp whomever the party elites again anoint. Who needs voters in a democracy? We can suspend our principles. After all, how else will we beat the threat to democracy that is Donald Trump?
For those who think the president is just a figurehead, and all you really need is to surround him with right-thinking people (meaning those with the correct party platform), I have a few questions: Who is going to appoint those right-thinking people? Who is going to adjudicate the inevitable internecine policy battles? Who are foreign adversaries going to gauge as being “really” in charge? Have you ever studied the Cuban Missile Crisis? Should JFK simply have followed the advice of the best and brightest around him? What about Vietnam? All you need is smart people and Ivy League types appointed to subordinate offices, right? Do you know anything about the nuclear command-and-control procedures and the president’s role in that process? What about his other responsibilities as commander-in-chief? I hear that Lincoln simply delegated the war to the generals and then went off to groom his beard and pick daisies.
We have heard for eight years now that Trump’s voters are deluded, willing to believe lies, and ready to sacrifice principle just to win elections. It appears they have a great deal of company.
We need better choices.
+1.
I couldn’t agree more (not an American citizen, but I’m married to one).
Nick Cohen observes that “Say what you like about the Parliamentary Conservative party, and by God there is a lot to say, but when it needed to get rid of Boris Johnson and Liz Truss, it kicked them out in a matter of days.” In the US, alas, reforms meant to “democratize” the Democratic Party eliminated the class of smoke-filled room fixers who could rescue the Party from a visibly doomed candidate at the top of the ticket. And, alas, a vigorous figure at the top is needed to prevent the election of a Trump Senate and House.
Is that so? I had the impression that it was the modern equivalent of a smoke filled room of fixers in the democratic party who decided to keep Biden all through his term, and run with him as the safest bet. They had four years to build up a successor, they didn’t use them, and no democratic process I know of forced his administration and staff to keep on pretending he was perfectly fit for the job and support his candidacy all the way. Johnson’s staff did the opposite.
Biden is getting pulled. The new guy has to have some sort of democratic legitimacy. It must be someone who has won the democratic nomination in the past, a current or former vice president or a very big state governor. So Hillary, Harris, Gore or Newsome.
Serious analysis and practical advice for the Democratic Party:
https://www.persuasion.community/p/how-america-got-into-this-omnishambles
+2
And it would help if the Dems would just stop saying T’s name. Refer to “the former President.” (Accurate and neutral.) T is not Jesus or Hitler, and talking about him pro or con just feeds his ego.
This is really sad and depressing! The thought of another 4 years of Trump irrationality is just awful. POTUS affects the whole world. And it will be worse, because he can do whatever he likes (within the wide ambit of the right wing Supreme Court) and retribution will be high on his agenda. He won’t need to worry about getting re-elected. Joe Biden is a good man and being old is not his fault. But haven’t the Democrats got a better candidate?
What a disaster that was for Biden. I hope he drops out and the Democrats find another candidate. I can never vote for Trump.
The Democratic party leaders who effectively decided not to challenge Biden were wrong, but they can’t compare to the boot-licking “never Trumpers” who almost all went crawling back to him.
Right now I think I could even vote for Liz Chaney. Even though I don’t agree with her on most thing, she is principled.
One constructive thing to ask is how to prevent this happening in the future. Is this a good debate format overall, with muted mics etc. At the primary level a “debate” between 5 people is not really a debate. I would have liked to have seen a primary debate between Trump and the closest rival, just to force a comparison in people’s minds.
It would be interesting to learn the full background of Bidens offer to Trump for these debates. Was it really true that Trump accepted immediately without any apparent dickering over terms.
All over in minutes
Joe now campaigning for Trump.
Lucky may have time to sort new person.
Dems BLOWN this, it’s clearly been coming, eye off the ball.
Now Biden doing a Trump, self-obsession not for the country.
Sad stuff.
Millions of voters voted for President Biden to be their candidate in November.
The doctors have given him a clean bill of health. Of course, he has COVID, but that will clear soon.
Some voices in the party do not want Joe Biden to be their President in 2025. They would prefer somebody else.
So what?
Joe Biden was the democratically elected winner of the primary process.
The doctors have given the all clear.
That should be the end of it.