“Evidence” for a flat Earth (round Earth illusion created by Satan)

February 13, 2018 • 8:00 am

Yes, there are still some severely deluded souls who think the Earth is flat. I got a long screed from one of them, a “John P.”,  in my email this morning. The second half of the email, which I’ll omit, gives equally compelling evidence for God. I’ve reproduced the words exactly as I received them. My favorite bit is the part where you can see Corsica (from your house?) He didn’t explain why the theory of evolution is a “blatant lie.”

Dear Mr Coyne,

Our education is flawed.

I’ve discovered evidence that the theory of evolution is a blatant lie and that the “big bang”, “space”, spinning “globe” theory is a blatant lie.

Firstly here is “flat” earth evidence I’ve discovered. The curve is supposed to be 66 feet over 10miles but is apparent nowhere and we can see beyond that distance. Corsica can be seen from 137 miles away. The suez canal is 100 miles long and has no locks. The Sahara Desert, the Tibetan Plateau and the West Siberian Plains are flat. The equator could not be the warmest part of the earth on a “tilted globe”.

All stars revolve around Polaris, the North/Pole Star. If we were on a ball circling the sun we should see new stars every day for a year as a lighthouse illuminates the sky surrounding it. The cycle should repeat every year. At any one time the majority of space should be invisible due to the sun’s light. Instead we see the same stars from somewhere on earth throughout the year. We can see Mercury and Venus at night which are between the earth and the sun. This is impossible with heliocentricity. In reality we have a celestial dome covering the earth through which the sun circulates.

Tides are not uniform and do not affect lakes. Tides and the seasons are central to feeding and reproduction. Pilots and engineers do not account for the curve. Pilot training manuals are based on a flat earth.

Gyroscopes show the earth is still. The cycle of the moon bears no correlation to that of the sun. It’s logical that surface water cannot curve as we are told is the case over vast oceans. We know water reacts physically to movement yet we see no evidence of movement in the water that surrounds us. Ships that disappear over the horizon come back into view with telescopes. There is no 24hour sunlight in the south pole. Antarctica is 30degrees colder than the arctic. It is the coldest place on earth with a low of -90 degrees. 70% of the earth’s fresh water is in Antarctica.

The Abyssal plains at the floors of the oceans are flat and have no sediment.

In 1946 US Admiral Byrd went with 4700 troops in OPERATION HIGH JUMP. Planes smashed into invisible “barriers” and it got closed off to the public.

In 1875 hms Challenger “circumnavigated” the Antarctic. It took 69,000miles. The circumference of God’s earth is 52,800miles. They would have gone 5 times round the fake Antarctica. Many sailors died because they were assuming the globe model and in fact the Longitude’s are longer in the southern hemisphere so thinking they had travelled round land they ended up hitting it! The Arctic circle is 66.6 degrees north. The Antarctic Circle is 66.6 degrees south. It has circular coastline, there’s a Deception Island, Elephant Island and Enderby Land. Weddell Sea, Ellsworth mountains. It was explored in 1911 and Amundsen reached the “centre” in 1911. How did they even know where the centre was. It has places called Titan Dome, Law Dome, Dome Charlie and Dome Argus.

The US Thule base in Greenland is used to detect inter ballistic missiles. I thought that’s what satellites did!

There is plenty of evidence on youtube showing the moon landings were fake. The same background is used repeatedly. The shadows are inconsistent. How do you take photos with an antiquated camera and a space suite on. Why was there no dust on the “spaceship”. How does a rocket work in a vacuum. How can you effect direction in a vacuum. Scientists say the Van Allen Belt above the earth is impenetrable. See Edward Hendrie(2016), Rob Skiba, Bradon Edge and Casper Stith(2017) for more flat earth evidence.

Our bodies and that of animals and creatures are designed to detect movement yet we are told we cannot detect the earth moving at 66,600mph. These are lies.

UPDATE: I forgot to add this bit. implicating the Hornéd One:

As to who would and could create the lie? One obvious answer is satan to conceal God! We are therefore talking about the spirit realm and we do not know how profoundly the spirit realm can impact our world. The indignation and ferocity with which many attack this concept shows they’re afraid of this evidence becoming mainstream. My research shows this is central to the battle between God and satan which is a spiritual battle. 

It sounds ludicrous and personally it has spiritual significance but it should concern everyone because it exposes the reality that our establishment can and does control the evidence which is promulgated. Science and education promulgate only the evidence that fits an agenda. Flat earth is by no means the only realm of suppression of evidence.

And so it goes. If you have the spoons, feel free to refute any of these “arguments”. I’ll give just one:


198 thoughts on ““Evidence” for a flat Earth (round Earth illusion created by Satan)

        1. Once upon a time when most of the family was gathered for a week of festivities regarding a wedding my nephew, then about 4 but now a grown man, was looking through a large “coffee table” picture book about cats while a number of us were lounging around recovering in preparation for yet another party. He came to a particular picture in which the rear end of a cat featured prominently. In a loud clear voice he exclaimed, “Look! That cat’s only got one eye!”

          When spent the next ten minutes laughing our asses off while explaining to each other what had happened.

          1. Think of Elvis’s Shake Rattle and Roll.
            ‘Im like a one-eyed cat peeping in a seafood store’.
            Very rude!

  1. I got as far as “Our education is flawed.”.

    This is how spam emails, or genuine conservative/religious emails are written. Don’t ask how I know this.

    It is true! Our education has flaws. Alas.

    … some people found a calling in putting on a show, I think – making a scene – its not demagoguery, its something else – something…

    oh no, someone stop me before I rave about Fantasyland again!

  2. “If the earth were flat, cats would have pushed everything off it by now.”

    I was taking a sip of coffee when I read this. It almost shot out my nose. I didn’t think anything could possibly be funnier than this email you posted. Thanks for the laughs this morning! 😀

  3. Did he explain why if you call someone in Japan, you have to allow for the time zone difference? Does he understand what a Foucault pendulum is?

    This is the problem when idiots try reasoning. Instead of trying to shoot holes in their own ideas (the scientific method), they simply look for confirmatory evidence.

    Science is conjecture and criticism, not conjecture and confirmation.

    And, if he had any novel proofs for the existence of a god, I would love to see them. I am collecting philosophical proofs of the nonexistence of gods (and am pushing 20 of them right now–tha race is on!).

    1. Ask and you shall receive:

      Science has never proved progression of species and to imply otherwise is to mislead. Science proves without doubt statistically that the world is too complex to be the result of natural random events.

      Evidence that nature is supernatural created by God is suppressed.
      Animals cannot think. Monarch butterflies are able to fly 3000 miles to Mexico where they stay for winter. They return to Canada lay eggs and die. Grubs then “transform” into butterflies. Evolution has no answer to metamorphosis. Butterflies do not have the ability fulfil this enormous task without some invisible force. Bioluminescence is a mystery. The colouring of beasts and creatures is a mystery. And the capacity to change colour is a mystery.
      Pacific Salmon leave their freshwater rivers after birth and swim in salt water oceans for 4years. They return to the exact spot of birth and give birth and die. Bear in mind that once they return to the fresh water rivers they cannot eat or drink so they swim up river jumping waterfalls for up to three months sometimes up to 2000miles inland.
      How could these simple creatures possibly evaluate when, where, why and how to fulfil these journeys? The list of mysteries in “nature” is endless; Super organisms Siphonophores are a mystery. Plankton migrate up and down in the oceans every day. The titan arum flowers only every seven years for one night. The mudskipper can breath in and out of water. Dictamnus plants catch fire at just over 30 degrees C. Cicada swarm only every 17 years. Badgers give birth at same time irrespective of conception date. Synchronised birthing is common in nature. Albatross and swift live in the sky. Homing pigeons can find their way home from wherever you leave them. Migrations are a mystery. The European eel is born in the oceans and immediately migrates to land where it lives until it migrates to the ocean to give birth and die. We do not know how or why animals swarm. We do not know how many animals locate food, prey and water. Coral spawn at the same time every year. Starfish re grow their entire bodies from just an arm. Frogs that live in the desert. The Oryx lives in the desert and does not need to drink water. Shrimp eggs can hatch after 3 years in a dry environment. Insects that freeze and come back to life. Animals coping with extreme temperatures, pressure and lack of oxygen deep in the oceans and in the skies.

      The behaviour, organisation and capacity of creatures and beasts are beyond their physical and mental means. Animals are perfectly designed for their environment and directed by God. Dr Werner Gitt.

      Our ancestors are not single celled organisms, fish or apes.
      Man is made in the image of God.
      Adam was not born but created.

      I recommend this youtube talk by Charles Lawson who tells of the experience of esteemed Cardiologist Maurice Rawlings relating to Hell.


      Things are as they were originally created by God. Evolution is intellectual fiction promulgated by the scientific community which the establishment have put on a pedestal. Attenborough uses terms like extraordinary and a mystery actually stating he does not know how countless events occur all the while sticking to his one size fits all evolutionary garbage which has forced on western civilisation.

      Fossil records do not show progression of species but rather are evidence of a flood as described in the Bible. Only in the case of a flood would the fossils have been preserved. The true geology of the earth does not prove land formations are the result of the movement of tectonic plates combined with erosion over millions of years nor does it show the structure of the earth we are told. Dating methods are not reliable. Sediment folds we see in mountains could only have been formed when the rocks were soft and therefore created in a short period of time. Geochronometers show the earth is young. There is too little salt in the oceans and too much carbon 14 in matter showing the earth is not as old as stated. See Walt Brown, ‘In the beginning’ and Roger Gallop, ‘evolution, the greatest deception in modern history’.

      In addition “facts” presented about the origins and the nature of the universe, the planets, sun, galaxy etc. are theory with absolutely no proof being an interpretation of observation of the sky / heaven. The globe and space fantasy is promulgated. Nasa is full of Babylonian symbols and 33rd degree satanic masons. Astronomy is based on computer generated representation of God’s creations in the sky. The sun is a projection by God of heat and light and as stated in the Bible is not the main light source..

      Theories promoted as fact are theories based on unbalanced science ignoring facts which do not fit the required outcome. I have done extensive research across a broad spectrum of interests and discovered many distorted or suppressed facts. It seems we have been victim to lies passed from generation to generation. Science is not meticulous, methodical and true evidence and history is distorted. Science is totally biased, partisan and compromised by big money and politics. Selective information and “evidence” is promulgated. Genuine evidence suppressed and concealed. It’s false science. Powerful organisations such as Rothschilds/Rockefeller and western secret elite monopoly power have compromised governments, news, media, science, history and education. They run almost all the world’s national banks (e.g. Bank of England and the Federal Reserve) and work out of the sovereign state city of London, answerable to no one. They love their sinister secret societies. See Texe Marrs. Satan through the power of money has corrupted our society. Evolution and heliocentricity are political satanic establishment indoctrination, brainwashing and conditioning.

      “Scientists” need to accept the world is supernatural because God made it and humans have no clue about God’s capacity. The “laws of physics” are effectively nonsense. We live in God’s closed dome environment.

      Flat earth supports the account of Genesis in the KJV Bible. God and the heavens are above to everyone all the time. God says earth is his pedestal with foundations. Only with a flat earth is heaven and the most High God above for everyone all the time and only with a flat earth could we know where the flood waters came from and went to. Only with a flat earth could earth have been formed within the waters. God says the sun moves, it runs its race, not the earth. God stops the sun from moving for a day. God made light and then the sun and moon. The sun is not the main source of light. The Bible makes no mention of planets moving around a sun flying though space because it is satanic lies. Planet means star in Hebrew and the earth is not classified a star nor a planet in the Bible. Eden means pedestal. Stars are created in the firmament as stated in the Bible.

      The most compelling evidence for God is suppressed by the establishment. The mainstream religions have also been compromised including the Baptist, presbyterian, CoE and RCC.

      I’m not sure of the value the RCC puts in the Bible but among other discrepancies the Bible says;

      Jesus the Messiah is the only mediator with God.
      It says men should not cover their heads when they pray.
      Its says pray in private.
      It says fast in private.
      It says God does not need an elaborate extravagant ostentatious physical temple on earth.
      It says do not worship idols.
      The Bible says call no man Father in the spiritual sense other than God.

      It does not say Mary is the queen of heaven or the heavenly mother of God.
      It does not say religions should unite for earthly peace and unity.
      There is no confession box.
      There is no eucharist in the Bible.
      There is no purgatory in the Bible.
      The Bible does not say that a man on earth can take the place of Jesus the Son of God.
      The Bible says it is the word of God.

      God is a personal and private matter and does not rely on institutions compromised by satan. God knows everything about everyone and does not need “managers” on earth.
      The KJV Bible says satan rules this world. He is the prince of the power of the air. That means spiritual, invisible, elusive power. Because satan currently rules this world, God says if you are a friend of the world, you are the enemy of God. Through defining a false environment our souls have been removed from a very early age. We are NOT the result of inorganic matter flying through infinite space with no direct creator. In my opinion the unthinkable and ridiculous turns out to be the truth according to the KJV Bible. That we are in God’s world currently ruled by satan.

      The Ark of the Covenant, Noah’s ark, the Red Sea crossing and Sodom and Gomorrah have been found. see Ron Wyatt. The Ark of the covenant is in a cave under the site of the crucifixion and has the blood of Jesus Christ on it. It was tested and is alive and has 24 chromosomes as opposed to 46.

      The Rev. E. Bullinger (who was a creationist and a”flat earth” Christian) in ‘The witness of the stars’ shows how the stars originally portrayed the story of Jesus Christ but this message has be paganised.

      The Bible as it states is the word of God and it is literal. The Bible has many prophecies which have already been fulfilled and tells of the times to come. See Clarence Larkin’s excellent books. The Bible has been meticulously copied thousands of times with over 95% accuracy. The Bible in itself is a miracle.

      See Dean Odle regarding the current End times;


      In case you’re interested I recommend

      ***Clarence Larkin, (books)
      Dean Odle, Charles Lawson and Robert Breaker youtube, for great knowledge of the KJV Bible.

      God is ultimately in control of all that is happening on the world stage today. Satan will have his day and rule over the earth for 3.5 years. Hollywood have prepared people for an “alien” invasion. This could very well be part of the deception which will bring in protection to earth via the false saviour.

      One interpretation of Bible prophecy is that the devil will take on the body of a man and deceive the world and after 3.5 years Jesus Christ will return to the earth to defeat the devil and his armies and start the his millenium kingdom on earth when Jesus the Messiah will rule with an Iron rod of righteousness.

      Satan has buried God and his Word, the Bible.

      We do not simply “die” and that’s the end. Our soul and spirit live on.
      Join the fight against the devil.
      Share the evidence.

      1. Well he got one thing right, the Bible is at least mostly (entirely?) a flat-earth document. Even the New Testament, well after most educated people in the West knew that the earth was a sphere, you get flat earth stories, like Jesus seeing the whole earth from a high mountain, and the prediction that all eyes will see Jesus’ return, which doesn’t work on a sphere.

        The rest is just, wow, look at this, it’s so impressive that it must have been designed, not evolved. To be sure, the IDists don’t actually do much better, they just make up a bunch of numbers to look more sophisticated.

        Glen Davidson

        1. All eyes will indeed see Jesus’ return, because by then we will all have phones with internet access and they will all automatically turn on and show us this greatest of breaking news.

      2. He says

        “Science is totally biased, partisan and compromised by big money and politics”

        Where does this myth come from that scientists make tons of money doing science, to the extent that they compromise their principles and personal beliefs to promulgate the “myth of evolution”. Especially in light of folks like Joel Osteen?

        1. I wonder whether he is consistent enough to abjure the products of science. He could start by giving up his computer, email account and web browser.

        2. “Where does this myth come from that scientists make tons of money doing science . . . .”

          Right. It’s not the STE(A?)M-types who make the money. It strikes me as most fatuous to talk about the patents scientists “hold.” Let them “hold” all the patents – it’s the Romneyesque/Wall Street hedge fund STEM-illiterate undergrad English major MBA/JD “carried interest” private investment types who make money off the intellectual heavy-lifting of the STEM types.

          1. Not to cast aspersions on the true-blue Garrison Keilloresque love-of-literature English majors. “Just sayin'” that Mitt Romney was an English major.

      3. He’s right about a few things (the Catholic innovations), but the rest …

        “33rd degree satanic masons.”

        Oh! I feel I understand everything now, I thought they were *32nd* degree satanic masons!

    1. Not necessarily! When this poor fellow said our education is flawed, he was actually correct (but not in the way that he thinks). When 40% of Americans think the Earth is less than 10,000 years old, and an even greater percentage think humans could not be the product of evolution, something is seriously wrong – something that goes beyond the very small percentage of individuals who are home-schooled. Of course religion is the root cause of this ignorance, but the teaching of evolution, cosmology, and other topics in high school science remains a travesty in the U.S.

      1. Some human primates simply don’t want to learn. They are irredeemably, incorrigibly intellectually non-curious. They are anti-intellectual to the core. (They call those who want to learn and intellectually excel “nerds.”) Re: Hofstadter’s “Anti-Intellectualism in American Life,” and Jacoby’s “The Age of American Unreason.” Rick Shenkman has something to say about this in his “Just How Stupid Are We?”.

        IIRC, Lawrence Krauss has quoted polls of 18-25 year-olds who cannot locate Iraq on a map with the names of the countries printed on it. He also quotes a National Science Foundations poll, admittedly from several years ago (Is there any reason to think that things have improved?), that approximately 50% of Amuricun adults get the following question wrong:

        “T or F: The Earth goes around the sun and takes a year to do it.”

        1. And I forgot to quote (again) Bertrand Russell: “Most people would rather die than think. And most people do.”

  4. “The curve is supposed to be 66 feet over 10 miles …”

    Where’d your correspondent come up with that? When I learned coastal navigation, the formula we used was 1.1 x the square root of the height of your eye + 1.1 x the square root of the height of the object = distance in nautical miles between the two (which, I believe, corresponds to a curve of about 8″ per mile). Seemed to help keep us out of shoal waters.

      1. On page 48 in the book “The Greatest Lie on Earth: Proof That Our World Is Not a Moving Globe” By Edward Hendrie, there’s a photo supposedly of:

        “…the island of Corsica, taken from Nevi [sic], 139 miles from the tallest peak on Corsica, Monte Cinto….”

        He means “Nervi” which is indeed 139 miles North of the Sardinian peak on the Italian coast near Genoa. [I checked in Google maps where one can get straight line distances just by clicking points on the map]

        And here is an independent picture very, very similar to the one in the book: HERE taken from Genoa

        This is not too unusual – I saw Sardinia from Hyers [nr Toulon] which is a similar distance & not much above sea level. The giveaway is that the entire height of the island was visible to me right from the rocky waterline. It is simply due to atmospheric conditions.

    1. Flat earthers are always going on about 8″ per mile squared. They have no idea what it means or that it’s not actually correct. Nor do they ever allow for the height of the observer. In fact, as you’d expect, they’re wrong about pretty much everything, understand little or nothing and a cept crap which confirms their world view without question whilst “questioning” mainstream science and dismissing it out of hand with no evidence against it or any to support their soncalled models. It would b3 funny if it were not so startlingly pervasive.

  5. It is a herculean task to try and rebut something like that screed. It would probably take months of actual education to get this person to understand why the bullshit he is regurgitating is infantilely wrong. Or rather, it would take months to offer him the education he apparently wasted once already earlier in life. The old leading a horse to water and making it drink problem. This person is a committed conspiracy addict & wooist and isn’t likely to ever learn their way out of it. And they vote.

      1. One of the things that comes to mind when I come across a person like this is how small their preferred world is compared to the reality that they deny. And I mean small in both the literal and figurative sense. It makes me feel sad that they are missing out on so much.

  6. If the earth is flat how does he explain MOUNTAINS? There’s a hill right outside my house – explain that. And what about puddles? The sea? If the earth was flat all the water would run off it, like on a tea tray.


    1. Gosh it is almost as if Elon Musk were the first person ever to photograph Earth from space.

      They have never had a problem with this photo even though it was published before Photoshop was written. Why would they have any trouble with Musk’s obviously faked images?

      The above should be read as if dripping with sarcasm,, by the way, just in case anybody gets the wrong end of the stick.

  7. Of course the world is flat – but it is cunningly bent into 3 dimensions so the edges join up. Thank goodness a half twist wasn’t introduced at the same time.

        1. A burleycque dancer, a pip
          Named Virginia, could peel in a zip;
          But she read science fiction
          and died of constriction
          Attempting a Moebius strip.

  8. So glad you skipped the religious portion of this reading. The stupidity is stunning and maybe on par with el presidenti. Pilot training manuals are based on a flat earth? Have you ever heard of taking the polar route? How do they do it?

    Why would someone spend so much time looking so dumb. Maybe running for office?

    1. It’s ironic that so many religious believers, who wouldn’t for a moment consider these arguments valid, hear only a faint wooshing sound above their heads when considering skeptical assessments of their own presuppositions.

      1. The point isn’t really about how smooth it is, though, but of its shape if the topography were smoothed out.

        I used to wonder why anyone bothered with the whole “oblate spheroid” spiel, though, since we’d never bother calling a ball as slightly “warped” as earth anything but a ball or a sphere. Nothing real is an ideal Platonic form, so who cares that earth’s not an exact sphere?

        And I think I found out, which is that historically people often did think that earth and heavenly bodies were, if you smooth out the topography anyway, ideal spheres. And it took some time to figure out that earth was not. I think it was the French who showed that earth isn’t a perfect sphere, aside from topography.

        It matters for GPS and other satellites, naturally, so I suppose that’s another reason why “oblate spheroid” is a favorite pedantic point. But if we’re not expecting ideal spheres in the first place, basically the earth’s a sphere.

        Glen Davidson

        1. Yes – just riffing on the topic.

          As for the “ideal spheres” thing, I’ll have to see what Aristotle says. I know his later followers did hold this. Galileo has this bit where he claims people told him “well, ok, they *are* spheres, but some of the stuff to make it spherical is invisible” and he replied “ok, and how do you know the invisible stuff isn’t mountainous too?”

  9. So much stupid in one person! Please, PCC(E), tell me he isn’t a doctor or in any other position of influence over, or responsibility for, vulnerable people like the very young or very old or the sick.

    1. That’s faith-induced stupidity. The worst part is that maybe contagious.

      And this message reminds me an observation by P. Atkins:
      “One aspect of the paranormal versus real science should not go unremarked. As in other forms of obscurantist pursuit, such as religion, it is so easy to make time-wasting speculations. The paranormal is effectively unconstrained whimsicality. Original suggestions in real science emerge only after detailed study and the lengthy and often subtle process of testing whether current concepts are adequate. Only if all this hard work fails is a scientist justified in edging forward human understanding with a novel and possibly revolutionary idea. Real science is desperately hard work; the paranormal is almost entirely the fruit of armchair fantasizing. Real science is a regal application of the full power of human intellect; the paranormal is a prostitution of the brain. Worst of all, it wastes time and distorts the public’s vision of the scientific endeavour.” (Science as truth. History of the human sciences (1995) 8:97-102.)

      1. See also Atkins’s “Galileo’s Finger” (2003) for another hard-nosed look at what science is really about.

    2. Logically, a flat-earther could be a competent, even an outstanding doctor, but crank-magnetism makes it vastly unlikely. Ten-to-one he’s an anti-vaxxer.

  10. “John P” has been tricked and deluded by Satan. The proof is in his own writing. Here are two clear examples.

    “The Arctic circle is 66.6 degrees north. The Antarctic Circle is 66.6 degrees south.”

    “….we cannot detect the earth moving at 66,600mph”

    The evidence is clear. I defy anyone to disprove it.

    This is very sad. I was just about to accept everything he wrote until I came upon those sentences.

    1. Maybe John P meant to say the curvature of the earth is supposed to be 6.66 feet for every 10 miles, which appears to be approximately correct (sorry, but my slide-rule seems to have slipped from my pocket protector).

      Coincidence that all the numbers he disputes bear the mark of the beast?

          1. The Pythagorean approximation is about eight inches per mile SQUARED. For ten miles, that is 8 times 100=800 inches,or 66+ feet.

            Another way of putting it is “how far to the horizon?” Standing at sea level, a six foot person can see a little less than three miles. Sixty feet up he can see about ten miles.

  11. I bet the russians are bumbed out now that they realize they could’ve faked a moon landing all along, and not spend billions of dollars on the real deal…

    1. It was nice of them to play along with the US faked moon landings, though. I mean, they could have tracked the rockets and showed that they ended up in the Pacific Ocean, or wherever.

      They were just too nice to do that, though.

      Glen Davidson

        1. It’s kind of fun, though, because one does have to think about things that often are taken for granted. Of course they’re going to call the photos fake, but, by leaving them aside, it’s kind of interesting to get back to the old pre-Space Age evidence.

          Of course, gravity really just won’t work that way–anything with the gravity of earth will form a sphere when no other large force is operating on it.

          Glen Davidson

    1. I don’t think so. No parodist would have the stamina to assemble this many bizarre errors. This is sincere obsession.

  12. “No soap radio” is a form of practical joke and an example of surreal comedy. The joke is in reality a prank whereby the punch line has no relation to the body of the joke; that is, it is actually not funny, but participants in the prank pretend otherwise. The effect is to either trick someone into laughing along as if they “get it” or to ridicule them for not understanding.

    This guy’s screed is just like that practical joke. Nothing there makes sense and there is no point to it.

  13. Scarily there are a lot of them out there and their numbers are growing. If Trump and Brezit are anything to go by the congenitally stupid and wilfully ignorant are dragging us into an age where the Kmer Rouge appear enlightened and the cultural revolution embraced elitism. These people are very dangerous indeed and reason does not work on them

    1. Or, alternatively, If Trump and Brexit are anything to go by the congenitally corrupt and wilfully misleading have been rumbled.

      How can we tell which is the more accurate assertion? Time will tell.

  14. I spent two days with my Science classes last week, watching the FOX Did we land on the moon special, pausing and debunking each argument as a group (I had to help them with some, since they aren’t familiar with film cameras).

    To sum up:
    – a distant background will look the same from several different vantage points (in the video, one was taken in front of the lander, another behind – so the lander appararently vanished)
    – shadows are only parallel on a flat surface, shadows on an irregular surface like the moon will go in different directions and lengths
    – taking photos? It’s called practice, then taking thousands of photos and only publishing the good (cropped) ones
    – no air on the moon, so dust falls as fast as large rocks
    – Newton’s laws of motion
    – the astronauts weren’t in the Van Allen belt long enough to receive a dangerous radiation dose, and the shielding they had was sufficient for alpha and beta radiation

    1. So in many of the pictures from the supposed ‘moon’ surface we see a black, airless sky. It should be full of stars! They forgot to hang stars on the backdrop in the movie set!

      I won’t write in ALL CAPS because I am commenting incognito.

      1. I was just answering the points raised in the “moon landing faked” paragraph. The missing stars one is easy – they are too dim to be picked up by the camera without a longer exposure time. When I was taking star shots with a film camera, I generally needed to have the shutter open for at least 5 seconds for them to appear, and about 30 seconds for them to appear in colour.

  15. I love this one:

    “Gyroscopes show the earth is still.”

    This is incorrect. Rockets sitting on a launchpad use the known rotation of the earth to check the calibration of on-board gyroscopes. Years ago I worked at Boeing Aerospace on rocket software and saw how useful this gyro test was.

    Facts are a bitch.

    1. Except they buy a giroscope from Toys R Us and claim that it’s lack of movement proves the earth isn’t moving. Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately) these idiots are not allowed to purchase crayons in case the choke on them.

  16. If Earth was a flat disk, how could the sun be simultaneously above the horizon as seen from North and South America, while below it as seen from Asia and the Indian Ocean? If the sun was located above a flat disk the entire disk would be illuminated (unless there was some object casting a shadow).

    This seems to me the simplest refutation of the “Flat Earth hypothesis”.

    1. I agree, and it’s one they could easily check themselves. Just get a circular table in a dark room with a lamp (shade removed). Then put the lit bulb somewhere above the table. Is only part of the table illuminated? No? Then it’s time to ditch the “dome” model.

      Also, I’ve often wondered why they don’t worry about the fact that it doesn’t take approximately twice as long to travel from, say, Cape Town to Sydney, as it does from, say, London to Tokyo. Are planes supposed to somehow fly twice as fast “closer to the edge”? If not, then is everyone who travels in the Southern Hemisphere in on the conspiracy? That’s a lot of private citizens to pay off.

      Clearly, these people don’t travel much.

  17. I agree with him “Our education is flawed”

    They don’t teach critical thinking skills anymore, the amount of people I encounter every day that have no ability to think in a proper manner just astound me.

    This person obviously can’t even edit his own beliefs, they are all over the place and don’t make any sense,m yet he accepts them as fact.

    I wish this person’s views were the exception but more and more I see people believing the strangest things and being able to neither explain why they believe them nor sort through the information to either validate or dismiss it.

    Learning how to think is just as important as learning facts and figures, maybe even moreso.

  18. All those rebuttals of ‘globe Earth’ are standard fare – John has mangled one or two of them probably due to repeated standard copy/paste. He will have a file on his PC [which he can barely use] that he can access whenever he feels like spamming an ‘Evilutionist.’

    I found him over at Amazon where he’s reviewed a book using most of that script & including the Jesus bits. From his other book reviews it’s clear he’s a multi-spectrum ‘conspiritard’:- e.g. 9-11 a put up job, illuminati, communist world order, ETs & telepathy, mind wars [mind control]. He presumably hasn’t discovered Chemtrails yet, but he’ll get ’round to it!

    I know a group of half a dozen men [& one woman] like this on G+/YouTube where they are derisively called the Clown Car Posse. The core belief of these people is KJV young Earth creationist, fundamentalist Christianity & everything else is an add-on.

    As a general rule these types are…

    School dropout
    No relationships
    Menial work or unemployed
    They lie a lot about their pasts & pretend to have expertise
    Over half of them are [or were] petty criminals who discovered god in the clink
    Some of them scream about God on the street & call that their job

    They are failures who need God & a range of ‘conspiritard’ beliefs to make them feel special. They like to chat in G+ hangouts & Skype about how EVERYONE ELSE is eternally damned to hellfire.


    1. Kurt Andersen’s amazingly timely book “Fantasyland” goes a long way to explaining why these people are mostly Americans.

          1. I need a list of these Cockney…don’t know what to call them…word substitutions. I first remember hearing one on Ocean’s 11 when Don Cheadle, playing a Cockney character says “Unless we do this job in Reno, we’re in Barney”. His American cohorts look at him confused, wanting an explanation. Exasperated, he yells: “Barney Rubble! Trouble!”

          2. Sadly, many of them have gone the way of the real Cockneys.

            But there are still some in common parlance. For instance, over here you will quite often hear someone being called a “berk”, meaning a fool, an idiot or a boor. This comes from “Berkeley Hunt”, which is rhyming slang for….

    2. Towards the end of his rant, John at Amazon mentions Dr Werner Gitt, who I note was, before his retirement, an engineering professor at the Department of Information Technology at the German Federal Institute of Physics and Technology. I think these characters can be found in all countries. Back when I was an undergraduate the book Chariots of the Gods? by Erich von Däniken was a bestseller. This was long before the Internet. I was fortunate to have had a professor who, noting that a number of us were discussing the book rather than doing whatever we were supposed to be doing, took up the topic and assigned us the task of vetting von Däniken’s ideas. This was my introduction to critical thinking; thank you dear Professor. The internet (and the History Channel) have made it much easier for these cranks to spread their nonsense. Of course, prior to von Däniken, there was Helena Blavatsky and the Theosophical Society.

  19. He just writes a list of “reasons” why the earth is supposed to be flat. Mostly, one suspects that he doesn’t know what he’s writing, not even according to flat earthism.

    I like the bit about the Suez Canal being 100 miles long with no locks (one that I think he sort of “understands”). Because water apparently must be flowing constantly downhill (somewhere) on a globe. That would be nice, we’d have a constant source of free energy being produced.

    And you know the deserts are flat. Ships disappeared over the horizon reappear with a telescope (of course AWACS circle over carriers so they can see farther than you could with radar on the ship). Actually, it is interesting how things impossible to see over the horizon normally sometimes appear as fata morganas under the right conditions, especially common in the arctic due to cold air low to the ground.

    I kind of like their mythical flat earth, though. Antarctica would be great if it were really like that.

    Glen Davidson

    1. Mostly, one suspects that he doesn’t know what he’s writing, not even according to flat earthism.

      I think this is true of most of them. Confirmation bias writ large.

        1. “With a healthy dose of Dunning Kruger for good measure.”

          I would have worded that “… an incredibly lethal dose of …”

  20. How sad. Stand on the shore near any deep ocean port and watch the ships come and go. The reality of the earth’s curvature is plain to see – unless you think that all ships are submarines…

  21. But then why is Antarctica significantly colder than the arctic?

    Mostly, because it’s a fairly high continent, covered with fairly high mountains (geologically they’re not well understood, either). There are other reasons, like the circumpolar current, but mostly it’s for the same reason Colorado’s o average a lot colder than, say, Virginia, which is at about the same latitude.

    Glen DAvidson

    1. You’re not wrong about the elevation but Virginia is a coastal state – it is warmer than Colorado mostly for the same reason the British Isles are warmer than the central plains of Canada (London is north of Winnipeg); the Gulf Stream.

      1. That’s presumably true, but the east coast isn’t really all that warm, thanks to the fact that the prevailing winds come from the west–off of the land. Sure, a few winds come from the ocean, but they’re the exception.

        I lived in Manhattan for a while, learning that it’s not cooled much by the ocean in summer (hot, humid), and not warmed much by the ocean in winter (cold). I’m not denying any tempering effect, of course.

        Glen Davidson

        1. New York City can get nasty cold – I grew up in Connecticut- and it’s true that most of the weather on the East coast of the US comes from the West. This is why New England is so damn cold compared to where I live now, In Seattle.

          But the Gulf Stream has a profound effect on the weather of the southern and mideastern coastal states. The Stream heads north and west from the mid south Atlantic and then north along the east coast of the US before being diverted northeastwards- towards the British Isles- by the Carolinas. The weather in the southern and mid-Atlantic states of the US is as profoundly impacted by the Atlantic as the weather here in Seattle is by the Pacific.

          1. Well ok, I don’t know much about those areas.

            So maybe I’ll say that Colorado’s a lot colder than Missouri due to elevation. Yes, I know that the Gulf itself warms Missouri and not Colorado (not much anyway), and I think Missouri’s slightly farther south as well, so elevation’s still not everything, but it’s a lot of it.

            Glen Davidson

          2. Some of us in the UK would welcome a bit of real winter now and again, as would befit our latitude.

            At least it might teach us how to insulate our houses properly.

  22. Fucking rockets in a vacuum
    How do they work?

    I’m trying hard not to laugh at John – he has no choice but to believe this galloping Gish – or to resort to Little People arguments.

    I mostly just wish that my country would take better care of people who need help.

  23. It’s actually not that hard to put a camera and raspberry pi on a small weather balloon and have it take pictures from 40km up. The curvature of the earth is very evident from that altitude and you don’t have to take anyone else’s word for it.

    1. But that just shows that the Earth is round. Or that the conspiracy is so pervasive that the NSA intercepted their camera somewhere between launch and recovery and put some Fake footage on it. Or something. Anything other than showing them that, “Holy shit! It really is a sphere!”

  24. If the earth were to stop rotating instantly we would all take off toward the east at supersonic speed. Einstein corrected earlier understanding of uniform motion. You can’t detect motion that is uniform. Also parallax, oh, forget it this guy is suffering from a mental illness.

  25. I do find the Flat Earther phenomenon to be fascinating. It’s like an epistemological thought experiment come to life.

    The main principle of flat earthers is going on what their immediate sense experience tell them.

    Essentially, what we have are people operating as if they have cast themselves back in time to before the scientific method arose, before the body of knowledge was built from that method….and just trying to figure out things for themselves from the ground up.

    “Well, it sure seems we live on a flat surface, and gee what ARE those little dots of light in the sky at night and that big glowing thing in the sky during the day? How does that all work?”

    And not surprisingly, they come up with models that mimic the guesses of pre-scientific ancient people.

    Another truly enlightening aspect of the Flat Earth phenomenon, for me, is the light it sheds on how people come to believe wild ideas, especially ones for which there is little or no evidence.

    It’s one thing to be brought up believing, say, ancient religious stories. Or even coming to accept the claims as true.
    But I always wonder: what was it like for the people who actually MADE THE STORIES UP?

    For instance, nobody even claims to be a witness for the story of Genesis, so at some point someone is just making this story up. So what is the psychology going on there? Does the person who creates a mythical story BELIEVE what they have just made up? If so…how? Or does it just become a claim that others later become to presume true?
    Obviously one can point out that stories like Genesis probably accrue over time, not as the act of imagination of a single person. But these acts of imagination nonetheless had to happen along the way, and there are plenty of other examples where you can focus in on the origin of wild claims – for instance leaders of UFO/Alien cults from whom come elaborate descriptions of other worlds and civilizations, how they operate, etc, which their followers believe. A rational person can’t help ask “Doesn’t the person making this up KNOW he is making it up?”

    But after following lots of these fringe beliefs (Oh No Ross and Carrie is a great podcast to get glimpses into meetings of these fringe belief systems), it’s becoming clearer to me how it happens.

    This is essentially what happens, or what can happen, when the method and virtues embodied by the scientific method are absent. Testability, falsifiability, trying to prove yourself wrong, having others try to prove you wrong, willingness to discard hypotheses that don’t hold up to these crucibles, etc.

    People are always seeking explanations and what you get, absent scientific rigor, are a reliance on the ability to “come up with an explanation” in of itself. In other words, “If I can explain Y by X, then X must be the explanation, and correct!”

    Subjective satisfaction with an explanation becomes a criteria for reality, vs trying for true coherence with all the other facts available.

    You can see this among conspiracy mongers, 911 truthers, moon landing conspiracistss, flat earther conspiracists. They seem to have “access” to the most incredible, secret information about vast systems of conspirators…none of which can be true and yet how do those beliefs arise? Because they ponder a problem, search their imagination for what WOULD explain it – and since THAT would explain it…THAT explains it! The imagined explanation takes on truth in the mind of the person who so cleverly thought it up. Without the further criteria of testabilility and all the other more rigorous demands, that’s all people have to go on, all they need, to adopt a belief. That is simply explains something they want explained.

    If you look at conferences for conspiracy theorists, for flat earthers, for UFO cults, etc, you see people getting up and declaring with amazing confidence all manner of stories – often at odds with the last speaker – “explaining” what is going on. Because they are operating on this principle that stops at hypothesis as good enough…and feel no need to go further.

    And that at least partially seems to explain to me the absolutely enormous variety of strange beliefs that have taken hold in the minds of people both now and through history.
    There’s a reason the scientific method was so hard won – it’s hard, it puts demands on our beliefs that are to some degree unnatural, it asks us to live with discomfort, uncertainty, ambiguity in many cases where we don’t want to. So it’s a fairly natural default mode for people to believe the explanations they can make up…because “it would explain it.”
    And stop there.

    1. I think this is a good account; just to add that these people are so bound up with their “explanations” that they are incapable even of noticing, let alone accepting, any evidence that might refute them.

      Once upon a time, the few who were half-educated enough to come up with crackpot theories were obliged to publish them in privately-printed books or pamphlets that nobody read. These days, any idiot with a PC automatically has a platform.

  26. He himself is indeed a blatant proof that an education system that can produce such worldviews as his, must indeed be quite bad.

    1. I would rather say that it is blatant evidence of an anti-intellectual, fatuous, shallow, Philistine Amuricun mass consumerism culture, against which well-intentioned and sincere educators (who have imposed on them “in loco parentis” responsibility for students by omniscient state legislatures) are hard-pressed to stand their ground.

      Academics and public policy types like Lawrence Summers, and Romneyesque private corporate tyrant Masters of the Universe like Mitt Romney, need to “walk the talk” and enter the K-12 pedagogical vineyards, and deal with oppositionally defiant juvenile human primates, and show us how “The Best and the Brightest” solve whatever problems ail K-12 education.

  27. If you ignore their arguments. they’ll claim it’s because you lack the evidence to refute their claims.

    If you refute their claims, they’ll claim that your rebuttal is a desperate attempt to defend the status quo.

    As frustrating as this can be, it’s delightful to pull one of these types onto a public stage. Given the opportunity to speak, they’ll often make their opponent’s points quite effectively.

  28. How does a rocket work in a vacuum.

    Better than in the atmosphere.

    That’s why rockets shoot straight up for the first few miles, rather than tilting eastward seconds after launch, because getting out of most of the atmosphere significantly improves efficiency. Once atmospheric pressure has been left behind, they turn in the direction of earth’s rotation.

    By the way, John P, why do you suppose launch facilities are typically near the equator?

    Glen Davidson

    1. Getting above most of the atmosphere also significantly reduces the stresses on the vehicle. Let’s you crank the throttle up higher without breaking the rocket, and when launching out of a deep gravity well like the Earth it is more efficient to launch at higher Gs.

  29. Reblogged this on Scotties Toy Box and commented:
    This post and the religious part in the comments hurt to read. I loved the comments as they point out the need for a much better education system. I hope my viewers and friends will get as much out of this as I did. We do need to understand what this part of our society believes and thinks, so we can deal with them appropriately. We need to know that some can not be reached, but others can. We need to learn why they missed the education needed for them to reason with and how to correct that problem. Hugs

  30. “In 1946 US Admiral Byrd went with 4700 troops in OPERATION HIGH JUMP. Planes smashed into invisible “barriers” and it got closed off to the public”

    I hate it when we (the military) are used as pawns for garbage politics or ridiculous pseudo-science. Like this.

    If you think the military is hiding evidence for a flat earth, then please, join. If you do well enough (in the Air Force, at least), you might get an “incentive flight” where they let enlisted airmen ride in and even pilot a T-38 for a few minutes. Then you can see for yourself the curvature of the Earth. Or become an officer and become a pilot and fly full time.

    Or become a programmer for the Army, where you might work on weapons systems that include GPS. You can see for yourself the calculations in the code used to account for special relativity when putting bombs on target. And then you can bet your career and possibly jail time for taking that code out, making the GPS targeting degrade in precision by a few kilometers per minute to prove your pseudoscience.

    I doubt you’ll do any of that though. Instead of putting your money or your life where your mouth is, you’ll continue spouting bs from your cushy armchair where being wrong has no other drawbacks except maybe a hit to your ego. If you can’t even handle that, then there’s no way you can handle having someone else’s life in your hands.

  31. Just grabbing one semi-random, brief paragraph:

    Tides are not uniform and do not affect lakes. Tides and the seasons are central to feeding and reproduction. Pilots and engineers do not account for the curve. Pilot training manuals are based on a flat earth.

    The stupid is so dense one wonders where to begin!

    1. Knows nothing about tidal currents
    2. Yes, living things have adapted to their environment (tides, seasons, etc.)
    3. Knows nothing about piloting a ship or plane over long distances
    4. Know nothing about the engineering disciplines that need to account for earth’s curvature (not all do)
    5. Has never heard of great circle routing for planes

    John P. needs to do a little (really only a little) reading in the library. Topics to start with: Artillery ballistics, orbital launch trajectories, the history of measurement of the earth’s radius, Coriolis effect.

  32. My gut-moment with the curvature of the earth was sitting on a cliff at the edge of an Island in Puget sound, looking southwest towards Mt. Rainier.

    I was near enough to the water to have it form a nice sighting plane, laid out in front of me.

    And it was viscerally obvious that that plane cut off Mt. Rainier at about the 8000-ft level. The far shoe was far enough away that one’s mind could easily ignore it. There was the upper 6000 feet of Mt. Rainier, floating on the water.

    I’m looking at it thinking, holy shit! I can see the curve of the earth as plain as day!

    1. “. . . was sitting on a cliff at the edge of an Island in Puget sound, looking southwest towards Mt. Rainier.”

      Now you’re just bragging.

  33. ‘How does a rocket work in a vacuum.’ lol.

    And. I wish I had one of this chap’s see round the corner telescopes.

  34. Worth reading about the Bedford Level Experiment in which Alfred Russel Wallace was involved as his original job was a surveyor,and had a long-running dispute with the ‘flattist’ John Hampden.

  35. 1. Lakes DO have tides. Their wavelength is very short, so they are barely noticable. Even on the Great Lakes it is a variation of 5 centimeters.

    2a) Pilots fly to maintain an altitude, not a straight line. Thus planes naturally follow the curvature of the earth. The plane will naturally follow this withOUT any input from a pilot. As one Aviation site puts it “Think about the gravitational potential energy of the aircraft. To climb (which is actually flying in a straight line when you consider the curvature of the earth), the aircraft has to gain energy. In a level flight attitude, it doesn’t gain any energy, so it will stay at the same altitude. A path that doesn’t gain or lose altitude is an ellipse that goes around the earth.”
    2b) Navigation over long distance is based on a spherical earth. As a different aviation site puts it, “If you’re flying from New York to Paris, the path your plane follows over the ground is radically different on a flat Earth from a round one, particularly as measured by a gyroscopic compass ….fundamentally, the navigational geography and mathematics that pilots have to master in ground school simply don’t work on a flat Earth.”

    3a) The FE experiments with telescopes and ships are with ships that seem to disappear simply because of resolution problems (going from wide angle to narrow focus). None of these ships have actually disappeared from the horizon.
    3b) Ominously, one mention of the disappearing ship issue by a flat earther appears on a web site entitled “jesuswasnotajew.com”.

    4) 24 hours of sunlight at the South Pole has not only been observed- it’s been filmed and can be viewed on the National Geographic website.

    5) Not completely sure about the Corsica thing, but since it has some awfully high mountains, I would not be surprised if it can be seen from a considerable distance.

    Not sure if there is much point in going on….

    1. Corsica details. The range of visibility extends at higher elevations
      (The horizon line is 25 miles out at sea if you are 6-foot tall standing at sea level, it’s 200 miles out if you’re on a 10,000 foot high mountain.)
      It IS possible to see Corsica from Monaco at 227 miles away, mostly because parts of Monaco are elevated at 500 feet and the highest mountain in Corsica is 8,000 feet high.

      1. Technically, Sarah Palin’s claim that she could see Russia from her house was only on a Saturday Night Live spoof in which Palin was played by Tina Fey. It has become a meme that she actually said it herself.

        Sp is on my short list of least favorite Republicans ever, but I have to confess that here she was done an injustice.

      2. But she DID say ““They’re our next-door neighbors, and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska”:”

        1. Yeah, and there are two islands in the Bering Strait, one Russian & one US that are about 2.5 miles apart. In good seeing conditions a person could easily see the other island even standing at sea level.

          1. I understand there is an Alaskan island that is somehow on the other side of the 180th meridian or whatever and so Alaska has both the eastern most part of the US and the western.

  36. What i want to know is, how are you going to clean up all the drivel in the “lounge”? it must all over the ceiling, possibly a case for fumigation as well.
    I’m pretty sure “evidence based” cleaners are just not going to be strong enough.

  37. We’ve pictures of a spherical Earth, we have the ‘mast first’ phenomenon on the horizon, we had Erathostenes calculating the circumference of the Earth comparing shadows in Alexandria and Aswan, we can see the curvature when flying at 10k altitude (as many airliners do), and we see the round shadow of the Earth on the moon.
    Apparently no evidence will ever convince a flat Earther.

      1. You are exactly right . . . They reflexively attempt to reject any evidence against their “truth” as a fabrication. But here is a link to proof that the earth must be a globe and that they cannot reject as ‘fabricated’: https://youtu.be/4Q9P30ght40

        1. Great video, but I don’t think it will change anything for them. “must be” and “cannot reject” are subjective terms, especially for ‘those’ people. Considering the number of downvotes and looking at some of the comments, they will find any reason to justify their thought process, no matter the evidence.

          It might just be part of the human experience, you see it all over. Some people would rather believe their next-door neighbour who rubbed a cat on their head and her headache was gone, instead of licensed healthcare practitioners who have the benefit and support of research and experience on their side. It seems to be a reflexive instinct to distrust anything coming from ‘the man’ or ‘the institution’ or whatever name conspiracy theorists like to give it.

          Granted, some may have good reasons for that distrust and some of the theories *might* actually be true. But that by itself is not proof for the opposite.

    1. I googled Tide Pod since it was new to me. WTF? Kids these days…well we used to dare each other to eat hot sauce, disgusting vinegar mixtures, dog treats, dry wasabi (that was fun for those who tried and didn’t know). But poisonous soap packets? Egad!

  38. Before this is entirely forgotten, what I’d like to see is a flat earth explanation for why people in the northern hemisphere never see the Southern Cross, or the Magellanic Clouds. That some stars/constellations can be seen farther north that can never be seen farther south was one of Aristotle’s reasons for why people understood that earth is a sphere (it wouldn’t exactly have to be a sphere, but some curved shape).

    Can’t they come up with something that would be amazing, even if quite wrong?

    I guess I’m always hoping for something more intelligent than we get from these loons. What do we get from John P to explain ships “sinking” below the horizon? Just some nonsense about how you can see them with a telescope. And one of John P’s “arguments” against the spherical earth going around the sun is that we’d see different stars every night, which of course we do. Video:


    I suppose it would be too much to hope for something very bright from the anti-science side. We don’t get it with ID, just a bunch of meaningless numbers that they try to use to paper over the vacuousness of their ideas.

    Glen Davidson

    1. Maybe I should have said that Aristotle noted that constellations to the north were higher in the north. I don’t know that he had reports from people who could never see the stars visible in the north because they were so far south.

      It would be more like the opposite, someone in Egypt would see stars that northerners would never see, while the same person in Egypt might sometime be able to see what a northerner could see.

      Glen Davidson

      1. Greek historian Herodotus’ The Histories implies the Phoenicians rounded the Cape of Good Hope – a clockwise circumnavigation of ‘Libya’:

        “…as they sailed on a westerly course […] they had the sun on their right, to the northward of them.”

        – supposedly a 3-year expedition sponsored by the Egyptian Pharaoh Necho in 600BC.

        Thales of Miletus [c 624 BC to c. 547] was the son of Examyes & Cleobuline, Phoenicians both. Thus it’s easy to suppose that knowledge of the weird behaviour** of the heavens ‘below’ the equator flowed to the Greek culture.

        ** Weird behaviour:
        Sun to the north not south
        No pole star to the north
        Heavens revolving backwards
        Moon upside down

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