Reader and contributor Grania, who sent me the “loaves and fishes” photo below, tells me that around 90% of Irish students go to Catholic schools. Such is the hegemony of Catholicism in Ireland that athough these are what we Americans call “public” schools, funded by the government, they’re run by the Church. And, up to the high school level, they include religious instruction. While students can opt out of that religious instruction, which is of course Catholic, they are forced to sit in study hall or engage in other unproductive activities; in other words, they’re marginalized. As a two-year-old piece in The Atlantic notes:
Irish primary schools are essentially publicly funded, but privately run. The government pays for school construction, teacher salaries and grants based on school enrollment, but private groups—mostly churches—provide the education. They are required to teach a standard state curriculum, and 30 minutes per day is set aside for religious instruction. For the vast majority of children who attend Catholic schools, that means preparation for Communion and Confirmation is part of the state-sanctioned school day—an unwelcome reality for some parents.
If you include other religions that run “public schools,” then 96% of Irish schools are church-run. As Irish Catholics become less pious, and more Irish become “nones,” this is a problem, one that Irish secular and atheist organizations are tackling. After all, it amounts to a serious entanglement of church and state, one that wouldn’t, for instance, be tolerated in the U.S.
I became aware of this problem after Grania sent this photo below, one taken by an Irish parent. It’s from a textbook beginning to be used in public-school religious education classes, and is part of the “Grow in Love” curriculum. That curriculum started this fall for “junior and senior infants”—they get them young—and will be phased in for everyone by September, 2018.
The photo below is offensive because it not only conflates religion and science, but also implies that miracles are “natural” phenomena. In fact, it’s counterproductive to most religious beliefs, since miracles, or so I thought, are supposed to be contrary to nature: that’s why they’re called “supernatural”. But St. Augustine the Hippo says otherwise.
The photo depicts a modernized Jesus pointing out the loaves and fishes “natural phenomenon.” At first I thought he was in a lab coat, which I’d find truly offensive, but I think it’s just robes.
At any rate, have a look at the Grow in Love website, and realize that most Irish schoolchildren are exposed to this regardless of their wishes.
Credit for photograph & links: John Hamill
There was a story in The Guardian this week about the extreme difficulty of getting children enrolled into schools in Ireland if they haven’t been baptised.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/21/no-baptism-no-school-irish-parents-fight-for-equal-access-to-education
And here’s a satire of the attitude of much of Ireland to the problem, from Ireland’s equivalent of the Onion, Waterford Whispers News:
http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2015/10/15/exclusive-we-meet-the-sickos-who-wont-baptise-their-child-just-to-get-him-a-place-at-school/
… and what we know about nature is that miracles exist wherever bullshit is conveniently inserted.
Religion was the driving force of Irish nationalism, so…
… and the desire to perform religious discrimination and bigotry was one of the principles behind the “founding fathers” of America when they left Britain (a hotbed of religious tolerance) on the Mayflower. So that makes the persistence of bigotry in America acceptable?
Or maybe, that’s an inadequate justification, regardless of the history of the nation.
“Acceptable”? What’s that got to do with what I wrote? Explaining and justifying are two different things.
I think Aidan didn’t quite understand where you were heading with that single, abbreviated sentence. Neither did I.
…so it’s not surprising, especially considering that Éamon de Valera,who was chief author of the constitution of Ireland, and ruled the country from 1919 to 1937, was a Catholic bigot.
I’m perfectly well aware of the history of Republican Ireland. It is unclear quite how that relates to the continuing power that the Catholic church holds in a society that is rapidly secularising, except as a historical oddity.
People aren’t controlled by their history. Otherwise the Irish would still be ruled by London, and we’d still be fish. (Well, technically we are fish. But you know what I mean.)
Well, an independent Ireland could have ended up with very different institutions, but Valera and his friends made sure that Church and State were tightly intertwined. If a government came in wit ha mandate of secularization, it would probably still take a generation to undo all the knots.
That is probably the case for all states without undergoing thoroughgoing revolution. The arcane intricacies of the UK state’s “Establishment” of a state religion has been estimated to require two years of parliamentary time just to get the bills necessary onto the statute book. That’s allowing no time at all for debate or actually voting. (This was discussed in my youth when Prince Big-Ears was rumoured to be discussing Ugandan relations with a Catholic, and again when Diana Spencer was porking a Muslim. Always comes out when there is an opportunity for racism in the British (gutter) press.)
Probably every state with a legally-established state religion has similar complexities.
The Church of England is theoretically deeply entwined with the British state, but in practice, because a very liberal theology predominates, the practical consequences are minor.
Well, outside the immediate Establishment period, there has always been appreciable dissenting religious minorities in Britain. Whereas Ireland had one religion for the authorities, and a different one for the populace.
The Irish people (most of them) choose to reject protestantism after three English crown became protestant, and took the losing side in a war over the issue. That’s the origin of the whole sorry mess.
Though the “founding father” of Irish nationalism, Thomas Davis, was protestant, wanted integrated education (and had a falling out with Daniel O’Connell over it), and insisted that Irish nationalism should encompass all religions and ancestries. In that he was following the lead of the United Irishmen, the late 18th century alliance of (mostly) Dissenters and Catholics.
That’s the tradition that the Celtic Twilight (Yeats and the rest) grew from, and that the Irish Proclamation evoked in the famous section about “cherishing all the children of the country equally” (with more optimism than realism.)
If schooling was different in Ireland right now we could equally point to a long tradition to justify that different situation. It wasn’t inevitable.
I think they need to have copies of The Brick Bible: The Complete Set sent over straight away!
Check out the second comment on the link – so perfect.
I absolutely love this comment about the book:
Tee hee!
Also, Jerry, I loved “the Hippo”. I hope it was on purpose.
That sounds like the “Brick Bible” was brought by someone who misunderstood what it was about.
Sounds a good edition of the “good book”. I shall keep eyes peeled for a copy, though it’s unlikely to appear on this side of the pond.
Check out The Brick Testament for a sample of the author’s work. She is apparently currently working on The Brick Book of Mormon, which should be interesting. The author herself is an interesting character.
Ah, I hadn’t got the thing about it being a “brick” BuyBull. I’ve seen the thing about storytelling with Lego, but hadn’t seen this particular trope of it. Someone did Star Wars a while ago – which is how I know about the belly-slitting habitat and the fool with the overgrown ears.
Brilliant… she’s basically saying ‘avoid letting your children near this book as it is insufficiently dishonest’.
There is also a push for legalizing abortion. I think the catholic church in Ireland is in for a bumpy ride the coming decade.
You mean, they’re having trouble sedating the choir boys?
We passed one referendum on marriage equality, abortion will not be as easy and removing the eight amendment will be incredibly difficult. It will be a dirty dirty campaign.
A dirty campaign. Yep. Against a dirty enemy. Gloves off, crampons on.
Those boots don’t seem to be made for walking, but it sounds like that’s not going to stop you….
b&
No crampons. Boots are the Official Atheist Footwear™.
Well, a good pair of winter climbing boots is quite adequate for kicking someone into hospital. (Of course, it takes a small degree of skill to avoid killing someone accidentally in the process.)
… which is why miracles vanish like morning fog in the light of knowledge and reason.
Poor Ireland. How in Gawd’s name are they ever going to dig themselves out of this pit of irrational detritus? It’s nothing but brainwashing of the young. Truly a crime of intellectual genocide.
I’d like to think most parents opt out, but I worry not so many do. After all, the parents went though the same royal screwing.
Well Dara O’Briain came out of it okay. Most Irish people would be hard pressed to explain transubstantiation etc. and believe that’s what the protestants believe not what Catholics do.
My worry as the catholic church moves out more extreme versions of christianity will come in to replace it.
The parish is a very strong social construct in Ireland, it’s your school district, your local football team and your local church and at the local level the catholic church has been an effective rally point for communities for a long time. it’s very hard to explain why it is so damaging to people when they can see no harm in it themselves even after all the scandals have come out.
There is also a very strong sense of ownership at the parish level. Your uncle built the chairs, your mother was in the choir, your father was on the board of management and so on
That certainly helps to explain things as they are. The transition to secular society is, I think, inevitable. Hopefully, those other, sometimes more vile religions will come into as much disfavor as the RCC. But it will take the internet on steroids.
By ‘Ireland’ I assume the Irish Republic is meant? It looks like the situation in Northern Ireland is different.
The Republic of Ireland, yes. I think only people outside the country refer to it as “the Irish Republic”. The locals generally just call their homeland Ireland.
… but not necessarily much better, but different. There’s all sorts of religious bullshittery in the governance of Ulster Stroke NI as well.
The only difference is, in NI, it’s mostly the Protestants doing it. (Which is not to say the Catlickers don’t do it too, just they’re in a minority).
Hmmm, since we on this website rightfully worship the mighty Cat, how can we reclaim our sacred word from the horrid C**holics? Any suggestions?
cr
They’re “cogs” in my family’s lexicon. No problem.
I prefer John Updike’s take: “Miracles are bunk.”
This is from Joyce Cary “The Captive and the Free” and almost certainly not from John Updike.
Thanks much to Grania for reminding those of us in the U.S. of how fortunate we are and that for the first time in history a government was conceived without a State religion and professed to be religious neutral. There are a hell of a lot of people living here who either do not understand this or have chosen to ignore it.
Random House pretty much defines “miracle” St. Augustine’s way- as contrary to known laws of nature, whereas Miriam-Webster simply defines one as highly unusual. Cambridge says contrary to usual laws of nature. Macmillan seems closest to Jerry Coyne (though not quite) with “cannot be explained according to the laws of nature”
All say caused by God is one possible definition.
Christian theologians have multiple theories about the relationship of miracles to the laws of nature. It seems on the surface that Thomism can gerrymander things more arbitrarily since Thomism holds there are two planes of existence, the natural order and the supernatural order, a proposition rejected by Eastern Orthodoxy which holds that there are only created entities and uncreated divine energy.
I personally go with Albert Einstein
“There are two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”
“… …a serious entanglement of church and state, one that wouldn’t, for instance, be tolerated in the U.S. …”
Most people who live outside of Nevada are unaware of the school choice law that passed here this June (SB302). We now have a serious entanglement of church and state that is tolerated as law. The bill allows state funding for any religious school in the state. Whatever per pupil amount is given to public schools may now be given to any private or religious school. These schools are exempt from regulation, do not have to present the standard curriculum, do not have to use the same tests as the public schools do, but will receive the same amount of tax support.
The law is being challenged by two law suits.
If these fail, the Nevada law will become the model that opponents of public school (the Heritage Foundation, Foundation for Excellence in Education, the Goldwater Institute, Institute for Justice among others) will use throughout the country. I think it is worth following the progress of the law in Nevada, so you will be prepared when laws like this are introduced in your state.
The Nevada AG’s office has filed a response to the ACLU/AU law suit that challenges the law on the separation of church and state grounds. The AG argues that it is time to put aside the religious, anti-Catholic bigotry that underlies the idea that public funds can not be used to support religious schools.
Link to ACLU / AU suit
https://www.au.org/files/FINAL_SB%20302%20LAWSUIT%20Final%20With%20Sig.pdf
Link to AG response
http://nevadanewsandviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Motion-to-Dismiss.pdf
Link to Educate Nevada Now suit
http://www.educatenevadanow.com/_assets/Resources/ENN-Voucher-Complaint-150909.pdf
That just means that all the cool kids are in study hall, and the squares are the ones who can’t figure out how to get out of the baby story faery tale lessons.
Once the kids themselves realize that this is so, the power of the Church will be broken.
Can we airdrop a bunch of Zombie Jesus paraphernalia to Ireland? Maybe with some Raptor Jesus schwag for good measure?
b&
30 minutes per day, that’s just unbelievable. In my (explicitly) catholic Dutch primary school in 1972(!), there was no more than an hour religious instruction per week.
But it’d suit me, half an hour of homework in a quiet place.
A laudable dream. In reality, the thugs from the football teams, army reserves etc (the ones who suck up to orders from above instead of questioning things) will get supported by one clique of the teachers, to then become the domineering clique of the school, with explicit authority to kick shit out of the “ungodly nerds”. And so it will perpetuate, with religion continuing to be used as a prop for authoritarianism.
At a non-segregated school in Scotland (unlike most counties in central scotland, ours refused to segregate kids) when the catholics had their religious education, we ‘protestants’ got extra arithmetic lessons (rather than being sent to a study hall). At the time we were jealous of the catholics, but in the end it may have given us an advantage.
The Hippo’s aphorism seems just another way of stating Arthur C. Clarke’s dictum that sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. But everything depends on the context, of course. I believe (and hope) that the Republic of Ireland will continue on the path to secularization and getting the schools out from under church control is an excellent next step.
“The Hippo’s aphorism seems just another way of stating Arthur C. Clarke’s dictum that sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”
I’d like to hear religiosos’ take on/counter to that.
Years ago I debated theism with a RC online repeatedly. My usual argument when pressed into such things is to discuss how the scientific and naturalistic approach to reality is at odds with the religious and theistic one. I was thrown back the Augustine quote when I argued that belief in miracles is incompatible with the metaphysics and epistemological positions compatible with and suggested by scientific research and success.
I then noticed that the line, if taken seriously, eviscerates the theistic position wrt to miracles (if they are considered important to the faith). This is because there is no way to recognize one – it turns anything into a potential miracle (by being “important to history” or what not) and then the game is over – you can’t tell except by groundless faith what counts. I was told that “tradition” mattered here, but that’s only at best moving the bump under the rug.
Leibniz, long after Augustine, realized that there’s a way in which the theist has to say that everything is miraculous, but he doesn’t draw the conclusion, at least to his readers. Needless to say neither I nor my opponent are as capable as Leibniz, but I never did hear a satisfactory answer to L.’s realization from my debate-partner.
“Irish primary schools are essentially publicly funded, but privately run.”
We have the exact same system in Hungary. Church run Christian schools got the same government money as the actual public schools. The ratio of Church controlled schools is nowhere near 90% but it is increasing even since the current governing party (the Hungarian version of the Republicans) took over in 2010. For example every schools I ever attended (below University) was given to the Church.
Fidesz, isn’t it? I met with them in 1990, shortly after the first free elections. Back then, they were a friendly, liberal, fresh and courageous lot.
But they seem to have become what they hated the most: rusty, creaky arch conservatives. Very disappointing. Time for a new uprising, this time without Kruschev.
Yes, but the financing system fro religious schools was not their work originally. Giving more schools to religious groups is.
Also – shouldering the risk of over-simplification – with hindsight they were fresh and liberal only the same way as they are religious now. The core of the party was made up by the children of communist functionaries and believed only in power. They thought liberalism will help them to acquire power, but when they realized it won’t work they simply disposed it (outing the few members who actually took it seriously).
What a sinister video. The children’s choir in the background sounds like it was pulled from The Omen or something.
Thankyou for this post – I had no idea that ninety percent – ninety per-sodding-cent – of schools were Catholic run. What a deal that grotty church has wangled for itself – the state pays all the costs and the church gets a steady stream of minds ripe for persuasion in the ways of sexual guilt and reactionary moral conservatism. Incredible.
I wander if surely Protestants have asked for the same privilege and been turned down.
If you reread the original article, you’ll see that there are religious ethos schools which are not Catholic. There’s just a much smaller number at primary level . (At secondary level it gets more Byzantine – due to demographics if you want to go to a protestant second level you’ll probably need to go to boarding school ie fee-paying ie more complications in the Irish school system.)
“The photo below is offensive because it not only conflates religion and science, but also implies that miracles are “natural” phenomena.”
Well of course ‘miracles’ are natural phenomena. “Nothing that is physically possible can be called unnatural” – though I think that tagline had less cerebral connotations in mind. Be that as it may, if it happened, it had a natural cause. (‘Natural’ there includes human fiddling, of course).
Seems to me that St Augustine quote could quite easily be interpreted as reflecting the straight atheist position.
cr