by Grania Spingies
I’m not entirely sure about how I feel about this one, but it makes me uneasy.
This news story floated by me on Twitter:
The fuss seems to be that a right-wing affiliated Pride Parade plans to go through certain areas in Stockholm where there is a high density of Muslim immigrants.
This is being denounced as “an expression of pure racism” by left-wing and liberal groups.
I can’t read Swedish, but it seems the parade intends to engage in such acts as singing and kissing. Those can hardly be called racist.
Personally I think that deciding to put a Pride march through such an area is deeply misconceived, it’s entirely possible that it will end in violence which is—and always will be—a bad end to seek.
On the other hand, I think a Pride parade going through areas that were predominantly, for example, Southern Baptist would be praised by the media instead of denounced. None of us need try very hard to imagine the scorn and outrage if a Pride Parade was told that it could not march through through a neighborhood because the marchers had to be “culturally sensitive” to the religion of the ultra-conservative Christian inhabitants.
What is racist is to assume that all heterosexual Muslims in Stockholm are homophobes. From the response I am seeing, the Left is no better than the Right in their assumptions and pronouncements on this one.
Bottom line: I guess what makes me uneasy is how quickly the Left is to sacrifice certain people that they normally would champion, including women such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali and now an LGBT group, when it appears it might tread on the toes of certain religious sensibilities.
Do we really only care about gender equality and the right to sexual identity and freedom so long as it doesn’t offend religious communities? Do we only champion women and LGBT issues so long as they closely share our politics?
It makes this leftist liberal really uncomfortable.
I wholeheartedly agree.
as re “It makes this leftist liberal really uncomfortable.” … … Me, too.
I feel this d i s c o m f i t over a lot of such similar matters, actually.
Blue
It makes me very uncomfortable as well.
But let’s not be the ones to disavow “liberal.” It’s the multiculturalists/SJW’s who are anything but.
Agreed 1,000%!!!
Some people don’t realize it’s a policy position, not a lifestyle choice.
Nice framing!
“Right wing affiliate Pride Parade” sounds a bit fishy to me. Is it termed “right wing” simply becuase they intend to demonstrate in a Muslim neighborhood?
The idea that anything critical of Islam is “right wing” is one of the more utterly bizarre memes that have gained currency.
The organizer is from the Sweden democrats – Sweden’s equivalent to Front National in France. The party was formed by people formally engaged in the white supremacy movement. (one example is the Party Secretary who for instance has been seen on photos tighter with former SS officials).
This is the primary reason for the outrage.
So it’s basically Provocation Theatre.
“one example is the Party Secretary who for instance has been seen on photos tighter with former SS officials”
Why use the plural and lie? One photo with one former SS officer (Franz Schönhuber, aged 17 at the outbreak of WWII, according to wikipedia), right?
A fun fact is that the organizer Jan Sjunnesson (a cultivated, worldly man) actually used to be an activist leftie, member of the left party (former communist party), from the 70’s and until at least the year 2000.
The outrage in my view is because the “wrong” people does the neglected work (neglected because of cultural relativism, political correctness, cowardice) of trying to advance LGBT-tolerance where it could be advanced, or at least highlight this problem/potential, instead of kicking in open doors in inner city Stockholm which is arguably one of the most LGBT-tolerant places on the planet.
The problem is that organizers would not care less about gay rights if would not help them in a muslim bashing. They do not care about conservatives being homophobic. For example one of the organizer compares homosexuality to incest.
I am an atheist and liberal are against totalitarian and authoritarian religions and ideologies. Would love to go in a pride parade in an intolerant religious area but not with conservative homophobs that are more interested in attacking muslims and not the religion which is the problem.
“The problem is that organizers would not care less about gay rights if would not help them in a muslim bashing.”
Those are just your prejudiced beliefs.
“They do not care about conservatives being homophobic. For example one of the organizer compares homosexuality to incest.”
It’s true that they, being rather socially conservative, tend not to bend over backwards in everything the LGBT-lobby demands in complex policy questions that are well beyond issues of fundamental rights. Do you have a link to that incest comparison (showing context)?
“I am an atheist and liberal are against totalitarian and authoritarian religions and ideologies. Would love to go in a pride parade in an intolerant religious area but not with conservative homophobs that are more interested in attacking muslims and not the religion which is the problem.”
Again, those are just your prejudices, that they are homophobes and that it’s about “attacking” (sounds violent!) muslims instead of highlighting problems within a religion and a local culture. I get the impression you’re from maybe the southern US and that you assume Swedish conservatives are the same as the religious “homosexuality is a sin”-conservative types over there? They’re not.
I will answer your reply further later. To see that the organizer are into muslimbashing first and further down the list gay rights is no prejudice. Violent crimes against gay people are most common in conservative countries like Russia and Ugand or conservative religious dictatorship predominantly Muslim. The difference between me and the organizers I do not cherrypicking between different conservative intolerance.
Or other authoritarian or totalitarian intolerance.
so, if a muslim is nearby, I must adopt their chauvinistic, misogynistic, homophobic, anti-semitic ideologies or I’m a racist?
Apparently so! HEAVEN FORBID we might OFFEND.
And if you decide to walk through – or parade through – Mea Shearim, what ideologies would you “adopt” in order to avoid being violently attacked?
I can’t believe that so many outside of Sweden are commenting on this without knowing the facts.
First of all the party arranging the event has recent neo nazi roots. Although it has cleaned up its act somewhat recently, mostly just in the rhetoric though, calling it just “right wing” isn’t enough.
Secondly, the party strongly opposes gay/equal rights. It’s a racist, homophobic party.
By all means, take an interest in Sweden, but at least get the facts straight. When a homophobic party wants to arrange a pride parade, of course people gets suspicious as to what the true purpose is.
Seems obvious to me they’re trying to point out the hypocrisy of their opposition. However bad their views and ultimate goals may be, they succeeded quite famously in this one endeavor.
Were the American Nazi Party to organize a gay pride march, I’d be every bit as supportive. (Or an atheism pride march, to pick a group I’m actually a member of.) I’d hope that the local gay community would show up in full regalia, especially the most elegant of the drag queens, and that they would make it a full and unapologetic gay pride march, bearing signs and gifts for their gay Nazi supporters.
Just think of the press imagery of a drag queen taking a pink triangle armband off his / her arm, putting it on the arm of a Nazi in an SS uniform, and giving the Nazi a purely fraternal hug. You can’t buy that sort of publicity. Wouldn’t matter how awkward the Nazi felt or looked; just the mere fact of it happening would change the course of history forever.
b&
“I can’t believe that so many outside of Sweden are commenting on this without knowing the facts.”
Good thing I’m Swedish, then.
“First of all the party arranging the event has recent neo nazi roots.”
And the Social Democrats(biggest Swedish parties) along with most of the other big parties voted to create the Institute of Racial Biology(Hitler was inspired by this among other things, btw), which STERILIZED Romani people and Samis for several decades, and kept doing so for quite a long time after the end of WWII. The institute wasn’t actually ended until the 1970’s.
Tell me again how a party with “recent Neo Nazi-roots” is somehow worse than the parties that were actively involved in the sterilization of the “lesser races”.
“Although it has cleaned up its act somewhat recently, mostly just in the rhetoric though,
It’s cleaned up it’s act tremendeously, kicking actual racists out of the party. “Mostly just in the rhetoric” my ass.
“calling it just “right wing” isn’t enough.”
It’s actually significantly less right wing than some factions of the american left, so that depends on your definition.
“Secondly, the party strongly opposes gay/equal rights. It’s a racist, homophobic party.”
Homophobic? Arguable, in the same way most religious people are(a lot of the people in the Sweden Democrats are religious, I believe?). They object to adoption, and they state that the respective Parish should be allowed to define what people get married in their churches.
Outside this, they support equal rights.
I don’t support this, certainly(I am myself a bisexual atheist lol).
“By all means, take an interest in Sweden, but at least get the facts straight. When a homophobic party wants to arrange a pride parade, of course people gets suspicious as to what the true purpose is.”
Except… It’s not the political party that is organizing it, it’s a former editor-in-chief of their newspaper with an axe to grind AGAINST the Sweden Democrats who he felt were controlling the newspaper to much- to the degree he reported the chief of communications to the police for this!
Get your own facts straight, man.
The Institute of Racial Biology was closed in 1958. That’s more than fifty years before The Swedish Democrats changed its ideological profile.
The party hasn’t thrown out all of its racists. The worst of them, like Kent Ekeroth, are members of the parliament.
“The Institute of Racial Biology was closed in 1958. That’s more than fifty years before The Swedish Democrats changed its ideological profile.”
You’re right on the institute being closed down in 1958. I seemed to remember 57, but then I guess I flipped that into 75 hence 70s. Thanks for the correction, I appreciate it!
You may be thinking of the forced sterilization program in Sweden, which continued until 1975.
Although the institute ceased to exist independently in 1958, the research was incorporated into the Institute of Medical Genetics at Uppsala University. The “social hygienic” aspects of the research didn’t suddenly end but waned slowly over the years.
The organizer is Jan Sjunnesson and not the swedish democrats.
Someone on Twitter compared it to the US Tea Party having a Gay Pride parade. But wouldn’t it be great if the Tea Party had a Gay Pride parade?
And if the motive in Sweden is to hurt the feelings of homophobes, well, that may be a somewhat less noble motive than in the case of most such marches. But homophobes deserve to have their feelings hurt.
It’s time we on the liberal left stopped pandering to one bigotry because we are so terrified of being thought guilty of another. Homophobia is bigotry whether it comes from Christianity or Islam or anywhere else. So is misogyny. Racism is bigotry too, but criticism of Islamic homophobia or misogyny is not racist. Islam is not a race (is it really necessary to say this yet again?). If you can convert to it, or apostatise out of it, it is not a race.
Islam isn’t a race, but most Muslims aren’t white. It seems plausible that a lot of the anti-Muslim feeling that is prevalent in Europe and America has racist underpinnings. (That’s not to accuse folk like you and Jerry of having racist motivations for your objections to Islam, by the way, which I’m very sure you don’t.)
Do you really think muslims are disliked and/or feared because they’re not white?
It’s a nice smokescreen for racists. “I don’t hate/fear these people for their race, just their religion”. Of course, there’s no good reason to hate or fear the vast majority of people for their religion, but it is just a little bit more socially acceptable to do so than it is to hate/fear them for their race.
On the contrary; religion is overwhelmingly the number one reason you should fear and hate people.
Without religion, a phrase such as, “But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me,” is nothing more than an over-the-top comic book monster giving orders to his minions.
With religion…with religion, that’s literally the Gospel truth. The Gospel According to Luke, to be precise: chapter nineteen, verse twenty-seven.
b&
“On the contrary; religion is overwhelmingly the number one reason you should fear and hate people.”
That’s a very silly and negative attitude, Ben.
If you don’t see the danger in people sincerely believing that the gods revealed themselves unto our barbaric ancestors and that the key to a good and moral life is to live according to the ancient dictates…
…well, I ain’t got nothin’ for ya.
b&
Sorry, posted too soon.
You should only fear people who intend you harm and are capable of harming you, and most religious people don’t intend you harm.
I don’t know how you’d go about justifying hating someone for their religious beliefs. Of course, members of rival religions sometimes hate each other for a range of spurious reasons, but surely that’s something we should be rising above.
It’s a nice smokescreen for people with obscene ideas and a proclivity to barbaric primitive acts and who provide a base for extreme behavior’s to claim “you don’t like because you are racists.
All this has absolutely nothing to do with racism or ‘brown’ people.
It is to do absurd ideas which translate into absurd behavior.
So, if the Amish were brown, people would hate/fear them? And if muslims were white, the beheadings and mass killing of innocents would be a lot more acceptable?
More excellent questions. (Though your second one should probably read something like, “if some fundamentalist factions of Muslims were white…”)
Deceptive questions, though. The Amish aren’t numerous enough to pose a threat, whatever their beliefs. So it’s not a true equivalent to areas where Muslim immigrants may be in a majority.
And as you noted, the second question is not only ridiculous, it implicitly equates all Muslims with ISIS (which is of course ironic since virtually all ISIS’ victims are Muslim).
cr
@ infiniteimprobabilit
OK, then, if Republicans were brown…oh, wait…
It is sometimes difficult to disentangle xenophobia from racism (not necessarily the same thing) from religious prejudice, particularly where large numbers of immigrants are having an impact on society.
As nightglare said, anti-Muslim (or similar) sentiments could be a smokescreen for racism. Or of course they might not. The same could be said for anti-Orthodox-Jew, anti Hindu (etc) sentiments of course. And this will certainly be true of some people and not others.
cr
What I find troubling is the ease with which many of the people whom genuflect for religion in the case of Islam, will vociferously criticize a White Republican politician for holding beliefs far less toxic. Rick Santorum is rightfully condemned by liberals for equating homosexuality to pedophilia, yet when ISIS throws a gay man off the top of a building, then stones him to death for if the fall doesn’t kill him, expressly citing the Quran as their motivation in doing so, and excuses abound.
It is naive to think that there aren’t some in the West whom target Islam because most Muslims aren’t white, but it is equally naive to think that far too many Western liberals refuse to criticize Muslims for behavior that they would, and frequently do, criticize in Christians, because they’re uncomfortable about race and xenophobia. Given that most Muslims are not white and don’t live in the West.
Is anyone (other than a very few idiots) trying to excuse ISIS’s behaviour, or just distance them from other Muslims?
The reason Santorum attracts more criticism may just be that he’s closer to home, he has the potential to hold a position of power over you. Whereas the loathsome ISIS (fortunately for you) doesn’t.
I agree there’s probably a reluctance in some circles to criticise disadvantaged people (which many non-whites including Muslims are), but I think in your example there are other factors operating too.
cr
I don’t think they’re trying to distance ISIS from other Muslims, so much as they are trying to distance ISIS from islam.
Would you march in a parade for Gay Rights with homophobes, that are just organizing to bash muslims not the religion? For example one of the organizer compares homosexuality to incest.
I’d want to overwhelm their numbers with people with good intentions who really did want to march for gays.
It is entirely possible, as I write this, that as an outsider I am missing the larger political context. I suppose that if the government were to ban the march, it would be lovely if it then organized a real gay price march not just through Muslim neighbourhoods but other areas as well — maybe even make it bigger than gay pride and make it about inclusiveness — invite everyone, including Muslims, to show solidarity for liberal principles.
I would protest against a ban from the government. I hope defenders of gay rights do a march in a Muslim area.
The regular Stockholm Pride parade will occur next Saturday, just a few days after the Järva parade.
http://www.stockholmpride.org/en/
I don’t believe a far-right group is really going to be concerned with gay rights. From this article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats
I read
“The Sweden Democrats consider children raised in a traditional nuclear family as the preferred option. Those not raised by their biological parents should have the right to associate or at least find out about who they were. Government sanctioned adoption and insemination to single people, same-sex couples and polyamorous relationships should be avoided unless the adopting party are close relatives or already have a close relationship with the child. They also state that children who live with a same-sex couple should be adopted to a same-sex couple if they become orphans and there is no pre-determined legal guardian.”
Wow, someone is actually doing some research instead of just supposing that this is a left wing vs right wing thing. Well done!
I’m Swedish so let me explain the problem here.
The initiative to this march was taken by people deeply affiliated with a particular right wing party, the Swedish democrats ( SD). They were a national socialist party until the 1990-ties, whose views of LGBT people where aligned with their German predecessors.
Currently, they’re the most anti-LGTB party in the Swedish Parliament.
Hence most people would question their motives when people affiliated with them try to arrange a gay pride event.
The reason is probably that they despise Muslims more than gays, and THEY think that a pride event would be provocative.
That is probably wrong, but their intent to use a political agenda ( equality for LGTB people) that they despise just to spite Muslims is rather contemptible.
Oh now I understand. Thanks! I’m not being sarcastic – I think you could read my sentence as sarcastic so I thought I’d point out that I’m being sincere. 🙂
Diana,
The situation is, I think, a bit more complicated, see my note below. It is obvious that the Swedish Democrats see this as an opportunity to expose what they see as rampant hypocrisy, but, there exist a background that seems to get lost in the reporting and rhetoric.
That is, that there today exist serious problems within many of these areas with a high proportion of immigrants. The Swedish police earlier this year declared around 50 of these as “lawless” zones, where they basically do not enter, and, the ambulances and firemen need police escort.
In many ways, a parallel society is starting to emerge, with its own rules (and laws). For example, women can be denied to enter Coffeehouse’s, or, are required to sit in a separate room, this in Sweden 2015, the most progressive country in the world?
It is these emerging societies within the society, and the glaring disparities in norms and values (compared to those in the society at large) that I think is at the center here.
And that are scarily ominous.
It is, or should be. Just to underscore the complexity of the situation a bit further, the fastest growing group supporting the Swedish Democrats (SD) at the moment is, immigrants themselves. Over the last year, the support for the party from persons born abroad rose fivefold, from 1,8% to 8,5%, which I believe, should set of every kind of alarm.
A second aspect is that the rift now occurring in the Swedish society is to a large extent going along socioeconomic lines, where SD is rapidly gaining support from elder people and people in the countryside and poorer suburbs, while the political and societal elite live in affluent ethnic Swedish neighborhoods.
That the established parties and media are readily labeling SD and these often (as far as I understand) deeply worried, angry and scared voters fascists and nazis, is to my mind not only false on a factual basis, but counterproductive in the extremis.
As a history buff, it is, to my mind, ominous indeed…
Thank you for the further elaboration, depressing though it be.
The situation you describe is — or, at least, should be — intolerable.
No civilized nation would permit an organized crime faction to terrorize its populace in the manner you describe…yet we’re somehow supposed to support and encourage that sort of thing if the criminals claim they’re doing in at the command of their tribal gods?
b&
It is baffling, to say the least. It is a if we (as a society) have lost the function of our basic moral compass, and, the needle is now just freely moving around in response to the (latest) slightest ideological fixation or touch.
We doesn’t seem any longer to be able to set a clear course, and differentiate and judge between fundamental moral goods, which leads to some absolutely mind boggling decisions and priorities.
Like when the cruise ferry MS Estonia capsized and sank in the Baltic in 1984, taking with her into the deep 852 persons, the Swedish government decided against trying to salvage the ship or the bodies, even if the ferry just lies in 70m of water, why?
The presented reason was that it would have been to “stressful” for the divers, and, that since it was improbable that they would be able to find everyone, it would have been unfair…
This even after several diving expert firms with previous experience of doing this kind of work offered their services just days after the accident. Instead, the government proposed to cover the whole ship in concrete(!), which among other things would make any future scientific studies regarding the reasons why and how it sank impossible, denying us the value of that knowledge, paid for with such a heavy price in human life.
Sometimes it is truly hard to know if you should laugh or weep.
Oh, now you’re getting into the sacred precincts of that modern evangelical religion “Health & Safety”, whose precepts it is forbidden to question. They jumped the shark ages ago. 🙁
cr
Correction: MS Estonia capsized and sank in the Baltic on the 28th of September 1994… not 1984
Shouldn’t the issue then be why aren’t the liberal groups countering with a sincere pride parade through the Muslim quarter? If the only people who are going to shine a light on homophobia in Muslim communities are attention-seeking wingnuts, then shame on us for leaving it up to them.
That is exactly what I was thinking and makes perfect sense. What does not make sense is that this is coming from the most progressive society on Earth!! Geesh!!
“Hence most people would question their motives…” If their motive is to expose deep hypocrisy in their critics, they seem to be doing a fine job of it.
That is a helpful clarification, but now the clarification has made me reverse my opinion. A moment ago I was feeling qualified support of the march, but now I see the group is just using the cause of gay rights in a very cynical way.
Seeing how left prefers to defend Muslim fundamentalist to LGBT people, they are effectively more anty gay.
“but their intent to use a political agenda ( equality for LGTB people) that they despise just to spite Muslims is rather contemptible.”
They couldn’t do it if Muslims weren’t aggressively homophobic.
The political situation in Sweden at the moment is exceptional, which makes, I think, Lars account of the situation dangerously simplistic.
The fact is that the public support for the Swedish Democrats (SD) has increased dramatically over the last couple of years, and in an opinion poll published this week, the party had reported support of over 23% of the population, becoming, for the first time ever, the second biggest party, and only 1,5% behind the Social Democrats.
They have, in the space of less then one year gone from 13% in the general election, to now 23%, which probably signifies the most dramatic change in public opinion in Sweden in modern times.
This, in turn, has caused a dramatic level of political maneuvering and vicious attacks (in the media) from the established parties. For example, the prime minister officially stated that the Swedish democrats were fascist, which factually and historically as far as I understand it, is ridiculous, and which was also rapidly and soundly countered by historians and political scientist in Sweden, but, it underscores the incredible tension that exists in Sweden today.
It is also worth to remember that Sweden is the last of the Nordic countries to have a large right wing populist party, in Denmark, the Danish People’s Party in the election last month became the second biggest party. In Norway, the Progress Party, now sits in government in coalition with the conservative party after the 2013 election, and in Finland the Finns party became the second biggest in the election earlier this year, and now also sits in government.
Compared to its Nordic neighbors the emergence of the Swedish Democrats as a significant political force have been much more dramatic and convulsive, and, this is reflected (I think) both in the language used in describing the party, as well as in reactions to this initiative.
“For example, the prime minister officially stated that the Swedish democrats were fascist, which factually and historically as far as I understand it, is ridiculous,”.
Not in the sense that it started out fascist. Its co-founder was a neofascist that, like many european neofasists at the time, used the former neo-nazi party as useful idiots. But he was quickly ousted, the part became neo-nazist in toto, then was coopted by extremist nationalists.
But using the labels “nazi” and “racist” when they are more a grey area party that has swept up people who votes against (never mind what they are against) is not productive.
The real anti-immigrant part of the population is still small and the party should have stabilized at ~ 15 % sympathizers. (With ~ 3 % really racist/against all immigration.) The difference is made up of “against” voters.
I should note that SD, like the once communist VP, has never denounced its history and the problems with it. In that sense they are still ‘racist/neo-nazi/fascist’ respectively ‘communist’.
“The real anti-immigrant part of the population is still small and the party should have stabilized at ~ 15 % sympathizers.”
What’s the basis of this assessment? According to this year’s Demoskop poll, 58% of Swedish voters think that current levels of immigration are too high. Previously immigration or integration problems haven’t been near the top of the voters’ priority list, but that has also been changing lately.
I’m going to assume based on the entry that the march is actually organized by some right-leaning organization. If so than this is complicated for me. I agree that “racist” is a questionable label for the reasons the Professor states (why assume all Muslims in the area are homophobic?) But still, it’s not good. This is clearly the right co-opting a point of view they normally hate simply to use it as a blunt instrument against another group they dislike. Here, I’m making assumptions that they are projecting their view of islamic extremists on the local Muslim population. If I were a local gay rights activist I would loudly disavow it, too. Again, they have the right to march, but that doesn’t make it wise or right.
Really? Why not say that you greatly welcome their conversion to a recognition of gay rights?
Any local gay rights activist worth the name would be organizing it themselves.
What would be the difference between that and a pride parade past Westboro Baptist? Both are vehemently anti gay, both would be offended, both are entitled to their views however fucked up they are.
Here’s an example of islamic protesters in London, were they particularly sensitive to anyones feelings? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NTT4Q7JVlQ
To be fair, some of the controversy is that the gay group is a right wing activist group and marching through muslim neighborhoods is seen as a deliberate provocation. It probably is. Could they make their point without being as confrontational? Probably. It’s not what I would choose to organize, personally, but I support their right to do it.
Would you think that there’s a difference between 1) LBGTQ people having a parade for their own sake and 2) anti-gay and anti-Christian people arranging a march just to hope for a rageous behavior from Westboro Baptist?
I’m not sure I fully understand your premise of anti gay, anti christians eliciting some response from Westboro. As far as I can tell, they’re anti gay and anti everyone else that doesn’t agree with their apocalyptic view of the world. It’s a given they’d counter protest any pride parades in their area.
The point I was making, was in the attitude of those considering the situation. [Public perception] In the US, most of the public views Westboro with hostility. Their sympathies would most likely be in support of the pride parade and so, less controversial than say, a nazi or KKK parade in a Jewish neighborhood.
From what I understand, there’s an undertone of nationalism with elements of racial xenophobia, in Sweden. So, public sentiment is in reaction to the undertone more than the social justice issue. Those that value free speech have to be introspective about everyone’s expressions no matter how abhorrent they might be to others. Secular pluralism depends on maintaining an environment where competing ideas can thrive. The moment that expression is abridged for whatever reason, it has failed.
If I have missed the essence of your question, please give me some context for your remarks.
🙂
It occurred to me that it’s quite possible the Muslim immigrant community itself is around 10% homosexual, so perhaps there might be some justification for an honest gay pride march through their neighborhood, e.g., giving that completely oppressed faction some glimmer of hope, or idea of the possibilities that could open up if they abandoned said community.
I agree the same demographics apply to muslims as the global population. There are very likely closeted gays living there. They should be able to live their lives openly and honestly without fear of shame or retribution. I don’t think a pride parade is the best way to effect cultural change inside islam. I’m feeling ambivalent about the motivations of the players involved in Sweden, given the contributions of our good friends, the Swedish readers. I think it would do “some good [raise awareness]” to have a pride parade, but often the emotional struggle of leaving family behind and facing that disapproval that some subconsciously agree with, prevents them from coming out. The GOP/religious right is riddled with self loathing homosexuals who put a higher value on “christian ideals” than they do on a healthy self identity. I can only describe it as Stockholm Syndrome, for lack of better terms. I pin my hopes on education for the world, empowering the women in our societies, and strong secular activism. Religion poisons everything. 🙂
Well, if nobody outside of Islam will stand up for them, what do you think that does to their chances of going it alone from the inside?
b&
I’m not convinced they think they have no outside support. Why wouldn’t homes for the disenfranchised gays and a support network be more effective a social engineering tool than a pride parade? We do it for battered women, why not those looking to come out in a safe environment? If I thought a parade would bring the best result, my big gay hairy ass would be right at the front.
And it can’t be both…because…why…?
Especially considering that it’s the right-wingers doing all the organizing and permitting and what-not. All the local gays have to do is show up.
b&
I do like your idea to wed the homophobes to the gay agenda. I don’t think, practically speaking, that’s how it will shake out. I’m not saying don’t have a parade, I’m making a case for doing the most effective thing. It takes a lot of marching to desensitize a cultural ideology away from bigotry. It only takes one safe place to be yourself, to provide a real and immediate change for a positive change in someones life.
“Especially considering that it’s the right-wingers doing all the organizing and permitting and what-not. All the local gays have to do is show up.”
What, and be used as cannon-fodder by a bunch of cynical bastards who would be only too pleased if some of the perv – sorry, gays got beaten up by the muslims (or vice versa)?
cr
Do you really think Swedish police are so incompetent?
b&
When they see liberals supporting the people who oppress them (the strict Islamists), they aren’t going to risk voicing their views or revealing who they really are because they’ll be at the least silenced forcefully and at the worst harmed violently.
It bothers me when people say “where are the liberal Muslims”. Yes, it’s a valid point but I think the answer is “silenced by the liberals”.
Yes.
The common ground between liberals and moderate Muslims isn’t Islam; it’s liberalism — Islam is what divides us. We need to provide support for the liberals and stop supporting Islam. Why so many self-described liberals get that so bass-ackwards is beyond me.
b&
Much as I always appreciate Ben’s stances for the best possible outcomes (and how to bring them about), my thinking definitely aligns with yours, persedeplume. My previous answer was more of an academic exercise in finding a possible reason a gay pride march under the circumstances might come off well, but not really a scenario I’d put any money on. And in fact, I wouldn’t even say I feel ambivalent about the would-be marchers’ motives; I would put money on the premise that they’re insincere and devious as hell.
I’m hampered by being ignorant of the vagaries of Swedish politics. I defer to those like Ben who might be more au fait than myself on the subject. I “do” know something about being a closeted gay and the emotional hoo ha one goes through in coming out. For me parades were pretty low on the list of influential factors.
I can only imagine!
You’re absolutely correct — and it’s also certain that those same points are at the forefront of the minds of the Islamists running the show, which is why they’ll do whatever they can to shut this thing down…and why we need to support the civilized rather than the criminals.
b&
sub
Racist – give me a break! This is the same as those who think women should suck it up for sexist Jews on planes. Be consistent with your values, liberals!
Exactly! The group protesting are racist, but I’m tired of this constant thing that opposition to Islam = racism.
I understand from the explanation above why people are complaining, but as others have said, there’s a principle here too and that’s Freedom of Speech, even for people you disagree with.
Just yesterday Eiynah of the Nice Mangoes blog wrote at length about how far left liberals forget about those within Islam who are oppressed, like many women, LGBT people etc, in their efforts to be inclusive towards Muslims. It’s well worth reading. I’m on the wrong device to add the link, but I’ll do it later if no one else does it for me first. It’s well worth reading, as is pretty much everything Eiynah posts.
http://nicemangos.blogspot.com/2015/07/an-ex-muslim-perspective-on-camerons.html
b&
Damn it! I should’ve read this before commenting.
Cheers Ben. 🙂
Ah, I believe you are referring to this link.
Like ships, passing in the dark….
b&
Or tanks passing in the dark.
Or the dark, tanking the ship pass….
b&
Ditto Diana 🙂
In Sweden – generally – homosexuality isn’t really something chocking. Everyone ofcourse has a different thoughts on it, ranging from disgust to embrace, but it is my opinion that all but an insignificant spec of Swedes believes that it’s up to everyone to choose for themselves who to spend their time with and who to have sex with.
So having a parade for the rights of Homosexuals in Sweden seems redundant – except for the areas where immigrants from Muslim areas have congregated(for whatever reason). In these areas, homosexuals does not fair much better than they would havein Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan or Iran. Thus, making a stand against some of the prejudice and hatered these cultures cultivate, makes sense.
Unfortunately, intersectionalism rules the “media-elite” in Sweden – and in this warped mindset, Muslims are seen as “less privelegued” than “HBTQ…”s. This means, homosexuals can not (and will not) take a stand against the hatred and violence they receive from Muslims – instead they point at the violence and blame EVERYONE for hatred of homosexuals. It’s basically collective punishment…
As a Swede, I’m humbled and greatful, by the honor of having Mr Dawkins point out the idiocy of the “progressive dogma” that currently reigns in Sweden.
> deeply misconceived, it’s entirely possible that it will end in violence, which is and always will be, a bad end to seek.
Don’t provoke the bully because bad things might happen ? Doesn’t the bully feel provoked and act on it even when there is no media attention on the even ? Isn’t it easier to document and tackle a problem when you have a clear mess to focus on rather than diffuse blips on the radar; a stabbing here, a beating there, most of them somebody else’s problem.
Provided the people who’ll actually go in those streets are aware of the risks, (and don’t participate in the violence themselves) that’s a very brave thing to do.
The far right may have the wrong motivations but things like this or the “draw Muhammad” exhibition seem to be (at least in my eyes) necessary provocations. They should be routine.
I think the left got tangled up between aims and means. Keywords like “tolerance” and “sensitivity” have been elevated as intrinsic virtues and ultimate goals, when they should only be proximate.
The real goal is or should be just “having civilization work”. It just so happens that applying a dash of tolerance or sensitivity happens to *usually* be the good tactic to get there. But “usually” is not “always”. “Tolerating intolerance” should not be a paradox. That it can be seen as one is a sign of deep confusion.
You know that something is very wrong with the world when it’s left to people like Pamela Geller (for goodness’ sake ! Really ?!!) to become lightning rods in the defense of very basic and obvious human rights.
Rha! Typos!
My kingdom for an ‘edit’ function!
even -> event etc.
Sometimes, alas, violence seems to be the only thing that moves the Overton Window.
Also–“having civilization work” is so spot on!
Based on Lars’s explanation above, I would not allow the parade. Use the reason as being for safety or whatever you like. In this country you don’t get to parade without a permit and generally demonstrations can be stopped by not issuing the permit.
These people are not gay rights activist and it would be highly unlikely that a proper activist organization would ever do this, because it makes no sense.
Sorry Randy, but I can’t agree with you here. You can’t limit freedom of speech to those you agree with, and you can’t ban a march because of what might happen. It may be that there needs to be a strong police presence or something similar, but the march should be able to proceed imo.
Muslims have a wide range of opinions, just like every other group, and to assume they’re all anti-LGBT, or would respond violently to the march is a bit unfair imo.
Whatever someone’s personal belifs, everyone needs to learn to accept the principle of equality in the eyes of the law. Some of the Muslims in Sweden may come from countries where that isn’t the case, but in Sweden it is. It is a democracy and they can attempt to change that by changing the law, but unless they can do that (and thank CC they wouldn’t succeed) they have to accept the status quo. Being Muslim doesn’t give you the right or obligation to be anti-LGBT.
Heather, I agree with you in principle; but I suggest you have a look at the history of Orange parades in Northern Ireland before you say that ‘you can’t ban a march because of what might happen’. These marches were and are intended to intimidate, insult and provoke the RC communities that they pass through. In the past they have resulted in much public disruption and, yes, physical injury and death. I can’t see that this Swedish effort is any different.
I did think of the Orange parades, and yes, they were awful. I’m not sure it changes my mind, although I see your point. I can imagine if we were all having a conversation about this as a group, we could talk for hours with good points coming from both sides. I’m sure I’ll think of more debating points myself throughout the day (it’s mid-morning Sunday here), but in the end I think I’ll always come back to the same conclusion.
Steve, that’s what I thought of too; and Grania is well placed to comment on the similarities to the Orange parades, and their effects – I hope she will.
I haven’t heard of Muslims being, as a group, a problem to LGBT people in Sweden. It looks more like an attempt to provoke, rather than ‘pride’.
Well, that was my immediate reaction as well; and I too would be interested in Grania’s take. I appreciate Heather’s response. Another analogy that occurs to me is Mosley’s Blackshirts’ marches into the Jewish East End of London in the 30s. Would they be approved of these days on ‘freedom of speech’ grounds?
That was my immediate thought too. The motivation for the march seems to be more ‘let’s piss off the Muslims’ rather than ‘let’s support gay rights’ and I suspect, if there weren’t any muslims in Sweden, the organisers of this one would be organising anti-gay marches instead. Which the gay rights groups seem to have realised if the Twitter headline is anything to go by.
cr
We’ve had the same in the States, with Nazis marching on Skokie and the Klan marching everywhere.
And we’ve come very emphatically to where we are today: anybody can march, so long as they do so peacefully. And we value the freedom of assembly and expression so much that we don’t stop people from marching even if we have good reason to expect things to get rowdy — and, even then, police are expected to show restraint even when they do get rowdy.
Much worse things happen than shouting and shoving and some rocks thrown when you keep people from shouting and shoving and throwing rocks.
In the States, there’d be police protection for the marchers, there to ensure that their right to march isn’t interfered with. And, of course, to keep on an eye on the marchers, as well, but anybody smart enough to organize that sort of march is also smart enough to be peaceful enough to keep the police protecting them.
b&
OK, Ben, I challenge you to come and organise an anti-Catholic March in the Bogside and see where that gets you.
I’m not sure what kind of point you’re trying to make with such a challenge, especially considering I’m on the other side of the planet and lack the resources and inclination to organize any sort of march even in my own neighborhood.
My point, again, is that, if a traditionally anti-Enlightenment-values organization wants to organize a pro-Enlightenment-values rally, no matter the private motivations, there is huge benefit to all involved to treat the whole matter straight up. They’ve just backed themselves into the corner; why wouldn’t you want to finish the job by painting them in?
Sure, they’ll remain anti-other-Enlightenment-values, but wouldn’t you rather not have to fight them on this particular front as well? And wouldn’t you want to claim the victory for bringing them peacefully to your side on at least this issue?
Can you not see how powerful a rhetorical advantage you can gain by embracing their words and deeds, even if those words and deeds were cynical and insincere?
b&
Civil rights marches in (certain areas of) the public space are obviously acceptable, and must be defended to the hilt. It was the failure of the RUC to protect a Nationalist civil rights march against attacks by Unionist thugs that helped kick-start the NI Troubles in the first place. Marches through specific communities aimed at intimidating, insulting or provoking their inhabitants are another thing altogether, and much less defensible on civil liberties grounds. From what I can see this Swedish march falls into that category.
No; they’re even more defensible — so long, of course, as they don’t include actual violence or threats of violence.
We have a very long tradition here of the speech you abhor being that most deserving of protection. The freedom to say only what the establishment wants you to say is no freedom at all.
b&
Why, exactly? Who gets to make the judgement about when offensiveness is defensible and when it is not?
I can’t see any reason at all to feel uncomfortable about condemning this march. It’s motive is clearly anti-Muslim rather than pro-gay.
To those who say that liberal pro-gay organisations should be marching through Muslim areas, is that likely to reduce homophobia amongst Muslims, or improve the lives of gay Muslims? I’m not saying that homophobia amongst Muslims should go unchallenged, or that gay Muslims shouldn’t be helped to live openly, but does anyone seriously think that a march like this is going to achieve any of that? At the very least, it would be a good idea to consult progressives from a Muslim background for their views on how best to tackle homophobia in Muslim communities.
Well said. The gay rights groups have not made the gains they have in the U.S. by rubbing it in the faces of their enemies or people that will never be changed.
In fact, I would say it is a good example of how a Republic should operate. Protect the rights of the minority and not wait for democracy to get you to the finish line.
Sure they did, christian fundamentalist are being criticized all of the time for being homphobic. I don’t what world you live in, there is even a LGBT center near WBC.
Well, if you actually think the gays have accomplished the rights of marriage by demonstrating in front of christian fundamentalist you do live in a different world. And you don’t understand how most all minorities get their rights in the U.S.
Rights alone aren’t equality. Pride parades politically only make sense in areas where it is dangerous to be LGBT. If they know that they can bully LGBT people using violence then it only encourages them.
“It’s motive is clearly anti-Muslim rather than pro-gay.” And just what is wrong with being anti-Muslim? Do you think that women and non- Muslims should be second class citizens? That apostates should be killed? And don’t tell me not all Muslims think this way – of course they don’t. But when they support Islam, they support these doctrines.
Exactly. What you find in the Q’ran, the New Testament, and the Torah is far more horrific than anything Hitler ever wrote or managed to actually pull off; the only saving grace of the holy texts is that they’re fiction.
Not a one of us would have a problem with being “anti-Nazi” or “Naziphobic,” and we’d none of us have a problem with telling good people they have no business associating themselves with the Nazis. Nor would we consider the “cultural heritage” of Nazism or the party’s strong support for education and other good social practices reasonable justification for maintaining membership.
So why do we bend over backwards to embrace the even more ideologically horrific Abrahamic religions, and reassure people that they can be good people even while they remain true to their Nazism? Er…”Christianity.” “Islam.” Whatever.
b&
There’s a distinction to be made between criticism of the Islamic religion (and of cultural practices that exist amongst followers of that religion) and prejudice and hatred towards Muslims themselves. It’s the latter that I mean by ‘anti-Muslim’.
Ah ha. Like a good Christian would say: “hate the sin, not the sinner”?
“…just what is wrong with being anti-Muslim?”
As nightglare has pointed out, “Muslim” is usually a reference to people themselves, while “Islam” refers to the religion and all its tenets.
But I’m sure the latter was the sense you were meaning anyway.
I have been mulling over this over for a few days, and think the problem is that many people think “anti-Muslim” necessarily means prejudice and hatred towards a person. I think Muslims [and for that matter, Republicans, Christians, Communists, etc.,] are supporting ideologies that harm the world. I don’t think anyone should be supporting these ideologies, and they should be criticized if they do [and no, I don’t think ridicule is that effective]. But I don’t discriminate against them, and treat them with respect if they treat me with respect. As the great philosopher Rodney King said as LA rioted: “…can we all get along..?” [And I appreciate you trying to see my comment in what you thought was the best possible light.] But yes, I am “anti-Muslim”, in that I think the person is doing harm just by the fact of being a Muslim. But I also recognize that they may in fact be a victim themselves, and community pressure forces them to identify as Muslim.
When people do or say the right thing for the worng reasons, it’s important to take whatever they’re doing at face value and embrace it. The Sweden Democrats are going to have a very difficult time after this justifying any sort of homophobic word or deed, including to themselves.
Think of it as an “own goal,” if you must, but it still counts and is of vital importance.
The proper reaction is to congratulate the Sweden Democrats for making such a bold reversal on this position, join them arm-in-arm in the march, and use that as leverage with the Muslims. “See, you Muslims? Even the Sweden Democrats realize that homophobia is evil. Won’t you, too, set aside our other differences and come join us in this celebration of color and joyfulness?”
b&
Yes! Further, other groups embracing and joining the march will make its mood different – more positive – and therefore less likely to turn violent.
“The Sweden Democrats are going to have a very difficult time after this justifying any sort of homophobic word or deed, including to themselves.”
Eh, no?
The Sweden Democrats also claim to be anti-rasist, at the same time they are obv. racists, it’s called propaganda.
All you achive with your arm-in-arm-marching is legitimising the Sweden Democrats and helping them cover up their racist and homophobe agenda. Quisling-style.
Eh, you miss my point.
This is much more of rhetorical jiu-jitsu than anything else.
I’m sure they’re insincere in their expression of support for the gay community.
But — and here’s the important part — they’re making a very strong and emphatic statement of positively affirmative support for the gay community.
Were I a gay activist, I’d be all over this. “See? Even the Sweden Democrats recognize the importance of gay rights. If it’s this obvious even to them, what’s your excuse for homophobia?” And I’d express my warm and sincere thanks to them for the support on this matter, even whilst indicating the vast gulfs that separate us on other matters. “We don’t agree on much, but that we do agree on this shows just how universally important and obviously true this matter is — it’s right up there with giving our children a good education and helping little old ladies safely cross the street.”
At that point, the Sweden Democrats are stuck. They’re on board with gay rights, and there’s no way for them to back down without losing all pretense of credibility, even to themselves.
Yes, there’s still a long ways to go before bringing them fully into the realm of reason…but this is a significant and unexpected victory for everybody, and should be celebrated as such.
b&
They are NOT stuck. You obviously haven’t seen what they can get away with.
This presupposes their followers have a few slivers of rationality. If they are a neonazi party, as some have claimed, that doesn’t seem likely. (I do not know if they are or not, just saying something conditional.)
If you wan’t to support the LGBTQ-community you should ofc join their event that takes a stand against the Sweden Democrats instead.
But I guess LGBTQ-questions aren’t that interesting if you can’t help a brownshirt-party at the same time…
Suppose Trump organize a march through a Latino neighborhood. What will I do?
Since Trump has the legal right to march through my neighborhood, I will tell my neighbors:
1.- respect the march and behave pacifically.
2.- put in your yard a cartel that reads: Hey Trump you are an Idiot !!
3.- stay inside your homes out of reach of bricks.
If they throw bricks to your windows, sue Trump for damages.
This is what I demand from Muslims: Respect the rights of the gay people if theirs is a legal right.
We need the Muslim to learn they have to respect the law of the land, and that they have not special entitlements because Allah or Muhammad
The sooner we do this the easier it will be to live together peacefully. The left (I’m a little bit lefty) need to remember that tolerating the intolerance leads to submission to the intolerant.
It’s a provocation? Hardly. They aren’t even showing Muhammad cartoons or spitting The Quran, which btw, it’s legal.
Being a legal march, it’s the government’s duty to protect meticulously the march and call the muslims organizations to respect the rights of the participants.
Allow me to say this: it’s going to be dangerous for the brave gay people to do what they are planning to do, but I can’t criticize them. On the contrary, they are doing us a tremendous favor at their own risk. Criticizing them is like criticizing Rosa Parks.
Pardon my French.
The immigrants in the area could also play some music as this guy did:
https://youtu.be/Rs4P1kKK-5k
The ”pure racism” quote is a right-wing blog (fria tider) strawmanning a left-wing position http://goo.gl/8Locnz
The actual complaints are about using a gay march as a platform for anti-gay views and racist views
Here are the ”pathetic leftists” mentioned in the blazingfur link http://textuploader.com/addw6
I don’t understand why the word racist is used when referring to Muslims
Exactly, since racism is a term denoting prejudice/discrimination/hate of biologically defined ethnicities, right?
But you see, yelling racism is (they believe) an effective way of slandering and ostracizing those straying from the leftist/liberal orthodox way of relating to Islam – which is hypocritical and apologetical cultural relativism.
I’ve been trying to figure out if, as a “far-right” party these Swedish Democrats are actually in favour of gay rights, or if this is just a vehicle to try and upset Muslims.
According to Wiki, though the party has
“criticize[d] what it calls a Homosex Lobby, [it] claims that it is not hostile to homosexuals. Furthermore, party leader Jimmie Åkesson expressed concern that what he describes as Islamization of Sweden will eventually lead to the rights of sexual minorities being violated.”
They also apparently support children raised in ‘tradition’ nuclear families. So it seems to me that they are marginally supportive of equal rights for gays, while remaining suspicious, as social conservatives, of the consequences of too much ‘homosex.’
So it might be a real pride parade. But, for the hell of it, let’s say it isn’t.
I can see why gay advocacy groups would take issue with a non-supportive political party hijacking pride to make a political point against Muslims, as pride symbolizes a lot more for the LGBT community than just wearing costumes and marching.
Still — who cares? Sweden, like the United States, the UK, France, Canada, and the rest of the West, is a free society. And that’s the kicker. I think we should feel obligated to support this march even if it was overtly racist — even if they wanted to goosestep through these neighbourhoods in Nazi regalia.
This is an issue I think some of the left is grappling with today. They espouse the principles, but only support certain people. We need to support the principles no matter who we are talking about.
It seems pretty clear, with the help of some of the local people above, that this is not a gay or LGBT inspired demonstration. Therefore, why all the pursuit to let the right wing crazies pretend to use it at such?
In this country parades/demonstrations that are simply for the purpose of inciting trouble or violence are justifiably stopped. It is not the same as plain old free speech. And again, how would holding a demonstration in a Muslim community accomplish anything politically in Sweden for the gay community? Possibly some are bending over backward to make a point that accomplishes nothing.
You miss the point.
I and others aren’t suggesting we let the right wing crazies pretend to use the matter to drive a wedge through the Islamic community.
We’re suggesting that we glue the right wing crazies to the gay rights movement. They’ve bought into the gag; give them their full money’s worth and make sure they own the issue.
I mean, if you can get even Nazis support gay rights, what excuse do less-radical groups have?
b&
Another way of looking at is do we think intentions matter? I think they do. If I blunder and call a group of people something they find offensive simply out of ignorance, I’m guilty of being ignorant but if I call a group of people something they find offensive because I know they find it offensive, then I’m probably guilty of a few different things tha range anywhere from deliberately provocative to something with an “ist” after it.
So if intentions matter, should we let bad intentions continue? I think the answer is “yes” but we should counter, contradict and call out those bad intentions.
That’s the first step of what I’m trying to suggest.
The second step is that, in this particular case, their bad intentions towards Muslims can be used to effectively cement good intentions towards gays where, previously, they had bad intentions towards gays. That’s no small thing, and the opportunity to do so should be leapt at.
Now, if the nonexistent-for-all-practical-purposes liberal Muslim community had even the slightest clue, they’d leap on this as well, and organize the Muslims to join in the gay pride parade as well. By doing so, they would defuse the anti-Muslim angle the Swedish Democrats are trying to play off of, and they’d further cement their own bona fides as actual Western liberals who embrace Enlightenment values.
Instead, they’re playing right into the hand of the Swedish Democrats, and eagerly demonstrating that Muslims really are a bunch of violently bigoted reprobate homophobes even less enlightened than the Swedish Democrats.
b&
But perhaps the liberal Muslims would speak up if the liberals outside the Muslim community would start supporting them instead of supporting the non liberal Muslims.
Actually folks, I think you miss the point. How does letting a group of right wingers who currently have no belief in gay rights suddenly come to “own” this belief because you let them have a parade through a Muslim community. Whatever you thought the political objective was going to be for the gay community, it’s not there.
Do the Muslims suddenly become for gay rights, no. Is there a reasonable chance that some violence may occur if the parade takes place, yes. You be the local politician that lets the parade take place and you can own the results.
So everytime someone wants to march, protest or celebrate, we need to scrutinize their motives? That could lead to a place we don’t want it to go.
What I am saying is the best way to counter something we think is fishy, is to speak up against it – go to the parade and call them out on it or hold a counter parade.
I’m not sure what you mean by “You be the local politician that lets the parade take place and you can own the results.” — Are you telling us, in a round about way, to STFU?
The Muslims are a side show in this particular drama. The immediate victory is getting the right-wingers on board for gay rights. And, as a bonus, doing so in a way that gives some hope to the gays trapped in the Islamic community, to show that they’ve got universal support, from all sides of the political spectrum, on the outside.
b&
YES! Exactly!
If even the liberals are going to play the “little people” argument and complain that we mustn’t be honest with them lest we upset them…then we’re effectively putting knives at the throats of would-be reformers and giving the handles to the extremists.
b&
See Diana’s excellent post at Canadian Atheist:
http://canadianatheist.com/2015/07/25/am-i-still-a-liberal-if-i-oppose-bad-ideas-some-minorities-hold/
Well shucks!
Yes. Very well put. “Ditto.”
b&
Excellent post!
cr
What delivered the critical mass for the recent huge leap forward for gay rights in the US is often being attributed to people actually personally knowing or getting to know gay people as friends, family or colleagues.
This might be naively optimistic but if this dynamic really is “a thing” then it might also set in between the gay participants and the hypothetically homophobic “right wing” organizers of the parade since they are now obliged to interact closer than they normally would.
So what originally might have been a cynically driven ploy can have the inadvertent effect of at least sincerely bringing the traditionally homophobic “right wing” closer to gay folk.
Yes of course. And we can speculate on all the happy results until the cows come home. I am not telling those in favor of the parade to shut up and go home. You are the ones using the imagination so well and what I say is there are many other ways to get results.
I assume the results you want are more equality and rights for the gay community. If your motives are something else, then come out and say what they are.
Look, even when they let the Nazis or KKK have their little demonstrations over here in America, they make sure there are more police than demonstrators because why? So people don’t get hurt and or killed.
As I mentioned before…Free Speech does not give you the right to parade through town for any reason you can think of. The people of that town have laws and rights also. The officials have the responsibility to protect all the people equally. Free speech is not a one dimensional idea. I recall a very smart secretary of state once telling Truman — think of the first amendment as a restriction on government, not incitement to the people.
You couldn’t be more wornger. The First Amendment and multiple subsequent court cases gives us all exactly that right.
b&
That’s a legal right (and may only exist in precisely that form in the US of A). Not necessarily a moral right. If you know that your parade is likely to lead to clashes, riots or deaths (and I’m absolutely not linking this to the Swedish case here), is your ‘right’ worth exercising?
If everyone constantly exercised their legal rights to the limit of the law, and particularly in ways calculated to annoy others, life would be insupportable.
cr
If anything the Muslim community will have a first hand view of the freedom to express yourself without being ostracized, beaten, imprisoned, repressed, (and I see that as crucial for Muslim gays) or condemned to death for your sexual orientation.
Welcome to the west, welcome to the 21st century, hullo Sweden, left, right and in the middle.
I hope they have a bloody good time of it as only the gay community can do.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they, the Muslim community, countered with their own parade, then perhaps the real Swedish far right will stand up, or sit down, whatever the case may be.
Good points.
Jerry wrote: “What is racist is to assume that all heterosexual Muslims in Stockholm are homophobes. From the response I am seeing, the Left is no better than the Right in their assumptions and pronouncements on this one.”
I’m not sure even that is racist.
Islam is not a race, it’s a set of beliefs. And being a Muslim is subscribing to all ot most of those beliefs, or more broadly being a member of a culture that professes those beliefs and centres itself around Islamic religious practices.
And Islamic beliefs are explicitly homophobic, if the Koran and the Hadiths are any basis for judgement.
Note that this post was written by Grania, not Jerry. 🙂
It seems fairly obvious that the putting on such a parade is there as nothing more than a means of provoking a minority group, so it’s understandable why the left would decry it as racist. I wonder how many in the gay pride movement are comfortable being treated as political pawns?
Still, nothing wrong with having a gay pride parade, and you’d think a society that’s open and accepting of homosexuals would extend to everybody. The notion that certain groups should be exempt from the basic human dignities is an anathema to liberal democracy. It seems, unintentionally, the conservatives are doing something that actually advances gay rights.
Many in Portland, Oregon appreciate the notion, “Keep Portland Weird” which relishes diversity at this time in history, although it wasn’t always this way.
Portland recently held the annual Gay Pride Parade. Others, particularly secularists,
join them on the march for support.
In re: SD marchers acting as though they espouse the LGBTQ community and marching through predominantly Muslim communities,
they have freedom of speech and freedom to peacefully march. But, imagine this march consisting of skinheads or KKK marching through black neighborhoods or towns. Worse yet, imagine a pro-Islamist American white shooting blacks in a southern black church, and black churches being burned down.
No need to imagine. The Nazis won the right to march on Skokie.
No need to imagine that, either. Took a while, but we eventually got convictions.
b&
Just to [ehemm] add a little stirring to the subject, Auntie Beeb did a little study into being gay in Pakistan a couple of years ago.
As Richard Burton noted 150-odd years ago with his “sotadic zone“, there’s a real element of closeted homosexuality behind the vicious public heterosexuality of many countries in this belt.
It is a very odd article, in that it talks about “gays” getting stones thrown at them. At the same time it is an open Pride parade and seeing how it is a populist party with politics _against_ gays I expect most participants will be heterosexual.
The actual Stockholm Pride organization, who are criticising Pride Järva, is odd to. They are _actual_ racists, in that they supported the anti-zionist BDS movement partaking last year. [Wiesenthal’s classification of BDS.]
Lot’s of “I don’t want to step in this” here. I can’t find any publicized demonstration permit for Pride Järva. On the other hand I don’t see how they couldn’t get one, re Randy’s comment. If they provoke unlawful violence it is the aggressors that are culpable.
Have any gay people actually signed up to march?
That’s an excellent question! 😀
A real coup would be seeing the “right wingers” dress up (undress) to parade as gays if they can’t get the real thing to sign up…
Were I a member of a gay rights group in Sweden, I’d encourage the group to tell the Sweden Democrats where to put their cynical and hypocritical support, and to organise a genuine demonstration of its own. Pace Richard Dawkins and others on this thread, I am as little in favour of encouraging European chauvinism and racism as I am of encouraging bigotry among the religious.
Thank you for pointing out the double (multiple?) standards. Those who criticize anti-gay beliefs and doctrines (and theocratic laws) coming from within Islam are accusedof by “progressive stack” apologists of being racist (which race?) or bigoted, even when they clearly are not suggesting *all* or *only* followers of Islam, or even a majority.
At the same time, the same apologists claim it is racist (which race?) to hold this parade in Muslim communities because of their anti-gay beliefs. It’s utter hypocrisy.
Sadly, it is a far right-wing group ultimately pointing out the hypocrisy, a group I’d likely criticize for most of their own beliefs. Oddly, anti-gay is usually a far right-wing position, and fundamentalist religious (including Muslims) tend to be conservatives and very right wing.
Ultimately, to me, it appears that it’s just a bunch of self-important tribes flinging poo at the other tribes without a care for self-consistency in anything they profess.
“What is racist is to assume that all heterosexual Muslims in Stockholm are homophobes.”
How is this racist?? Muslims are not a race! Bigoted perhaps, but the use of the word “racist” really bothers me because it seems obviously wrong.
You have got it all wrong here. There actually is a gay march in the exact same area, in October, that the Swedish left is not protesting against at all, even though it is organized by a far right (libertarian) gay activist. The protests against this other march is about the Swedish equivalent of English Defence League hi-jacking the LBGTQ issue for a solely racist purpose.
Is there a webpage or other info available on the October event?
It is a conservative move, but they have a valid point.
There are some additional factors,which I discussed in my comments here:
http://atheistnexus.org/forum/topics/gay-pride-parade-in-sweden
It’s called Pinkwashing. If you are ok with it, fine, be my guest. I’m a lesbian and I’m not ok at all.
Those planning Pride Järva are themselves homofobes.
It is just that they, at this point, hate muslims more than gays.
They are against gay marriage and gays adopting.
If you had read all the crap they have been saying about gays
You would understand the protests.
Never understood people creaming themselves over Sweden. Sweden is definitely not a place I want to live in. The stories coming out of that place always makes me facepalm, constantly. Their own justice minister thought a satire story about people dying from marijuana overdoses in Colorado was true. Vocal feminist groups wanting to ban porn for “an equal” society (but only for “white men”, of course). Now this story. Sounds like a gigantic clownhouse, actually.
The organisers are well known homophobic ultra right and they have no info about and no Local base for their march which is just a propaganda war stunt Aimed at discrediting gays and muslims simultaneuosly. The LGBT movement organisers a Local picnic as an alternative event.the ultra right wing party was banned from pride and this is their revenge.
I will explain the situation for all of the people who do not speak swedish:
The parade in question is organized by the “brains” behind a certain website called “Avpixlat”, a website dedicated to spread the propaganda of a certain far-right swedish political party.
Now, there are people behind this website who are openly homophobic, with tweets saying that the homosexual community knowingly spread HIV, and comparing homosexuality to incest and bestiality.
I find these quotes kinda homophobic, so why are these people organizing a Pride Parade through IMMIGRANT areas in Sweden?
Avpixlat and the far-right are against the current immigration policies, and immigrants and muslims in general.
So, what is the reason for a homophobic group to organize such an event in an immigrant-heavy area?
One could only guess.
In many European countries, openly LGBT (holding hands for instance) are not tolerated in some public areas in neighborhoods with a high muslim concentration. Indeed they face verbal and even physical aggression. Under the vail of ignorance, it is evident that this is not tolerable. Therefore a protest parade is fully justified in these areas, with the participation of all those, LGBT or not, who support equal rights for every citizen in any public place of the country. If for instance, openly muslim couples (on the basis of the hijab for instance) would face the same kind of aggressions in some other neighborhoods, they would also be justified to set up there a protest march. In both case, I would personally be inclined to participate, even if I am neither gay nor muslim. Now, this doesn’t clear the suspicions about the hidden aims of the organizers of the Swedish pride.
Forgive my french.
Erratum: veil, of course, not vail!
The ultra right organisers say that sexuality is private and support the anti gay laws of Russia and Uganda, so this is just a provocation in Scott Lively fashion. Please join the inclusive LGBT picnic in the same area instead.Or Malmo pride next week, where we have the highest muslim population in the country and celebrate in the city center where everyone can meet and march.
Seems like the Orange Order marches in Ulster going through ‘Catholic’ areas. Personally I say they should all get over it.
“‘Catholic’ areas” the ‘Catholic’ in quotation marks; ‘they should all get over it’. The Orange Order marches were intended as intimidation, as a way of showing who was boss, in a very unjust state. It really was not a simple matter of everything as it were magically becoming splendid and happy if only people would ‘get over’ things. This march, too, organised by what is clearly an unpleasant right-wing party, is obviously intended quite cynically to intimidate and provoke. I don’t think I’m mis-reading Dominic’s comment, and I must say that I am regularly alarmed by the way the difficulty and intractable-ness of specific political issues and situations seem not to be recognised. This refusal or inability to recognise problems is dangerous. My remarks are not intended as tilting against science, whether broadly or narrowly construed, but as a suggestion that a knowledge of history, anthropology and the kind of social philosophy that was practiced by, for example, Pierre Bourdieu is helpful when it comes to human affairs, where the kind of clear-cut questions and answers that are common in the scientific (narrowly construed) laboratory are far less common, unfortunately.