Now this isn’t that crazy pastor I mentioned the other day who called for the execution of homosexuals. No, this is Bill Donohue, head of the Catholic League for twenty years and a one-man anti-defamation league for the Vatican. Whenever he senses the Holy Church is being dissed, Donohue pops up and cries “bias”! Well, Catholicism is behind only Islam in being the world’s most harmful religion, so Donohue is kept pretty busy. (I remember his whining when the Empire State Building refused to deck itself in blue and white lights in honor of Mother Theresa, and I’ve spelled her name wrong so Donohue can accuse me of bias.)
And no, it’s not enough that we’re accused of having a “strawman” view of religion, or of being militant and shrill. Now, says Donohue, we nonbelievers are actually shortening our lives and curtailing our happiness by not accepting Jesus. This is a strange accusation from a religionist, for many believers say they really prefer the “old-time atheists” like Nietzsche and Camus, who, fully grasping the implications of their nonbelief, were thrown into the pit of nihilism. Modern atheists aren’t suppose to be like that. But, according to Donohue, we really are.
Right Wing Watch presented this snippet of Donohue’s rantings, which are directed toward “extremist” atheists:
As for how we deal with this problem of atheistic misery and insanity, Donohue says, “They got to work it out, fine, I’ll help pay for their therapy, just take your hands, your mitts off the Catholics during Christmas.”
But you know, even if Donohue were right—and I don’t know the statistics, but I suspect he’s right about longevity and self-reported happiness—I’d rather be a more dolorous knower of the truth than a credulous person who spends his life fingering rosaries and confessing sexual peccadillos in hope of finding eternal life. As George Bernard Shaw said:
“The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality of happiness, and by no means a necessity of life.”
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Pure projection.
He’s been doin’ this schtick for years. It’s boring. The only people who genuflect before him are luntics just like him.
He’s a thoroughly obnoxious asshole. And a moron to boot.
Hey, Rev, don’t be afraid to tell us what you really Thank you! 😉
Gee, very different result from my research that indicates atheists are just as happy and content as ardent religious believers. Even among the elderly!
Horning, S.M., Davis, H.P., Stirrat, M., Cornwell, R.E.(2011). Atheistic, agnostic, and religious older adults on well-being and coping behaviors. Journal of Aging Studies, 25(2):177-188.
Glad to hear that!
Yes, but that’s just an article in a peer-reviewed science journal. Donohue knows THE TRVTH™, and if he doesn’t, he gets to make it up!
Loving the Roman V.
I think of all the religions, Catholics are the most likely to give credence to Argument from Antiquity, which is a fallacy I’ve made up to describe the way they think just because something is written in Latin or Greek or in an early uncial script or is otherwise historically esoteric it must be true. “V” for “U” reminds me of this. Good call , Mark!
That’s okay, there were a lot of ancient texts that can anger Catholics. 🙂 Muahahaha!
Also Church Latin sounds terrible and wrong.
is the article available somewhere? I tried at Elsevier but not having much luck.
If you haven’t found it yet, it’s available here.
‘…differences approached significance on the groups [sic] use of humor and substances…’
Heh heh.
Sub
//
Bananas.
I mean, sub.
🍌🍌
That’s mighty decent of him.
In turn I’ll make sure to respect the psychoses and neuroses his favourite book is based upon, and in no way imply that his worship of such people may or may not indicate an underlying condition that may or may not need medical attention.
Because surely religious people do not struggle with such inane issues and are generally considered hallmarks of human sanity.
Halle’friggin’luja and merry christmas,
Exhibit A: Pastor Final Solution referred to in a post yesterday.
Aye.
I know it’s a cliché, but sometimes the insane really are running the asylum.
I was walking through an NYC subway station this week when I came apon a table covered with literature. On of the pamphlets said “What you need to know about mental illness.” It was the Jehovah’s Witnesses, which was all I needed to know.
Yeah I think I saw a similar JW pamphlet that was put in my mailbox (because I never take them when offered). I think it also accompanied a 6ft tall blue eyed, blonde haired Jesus too. I wanted to wait until the JWs returned and argue how Jesus looked to European and not Jewish enough but I figured that would just encourage them so I didn’t do it.
I mean to say Jesus pamphlet. I so wish I got an actual Jesus!! We could have our own gig – The Jesus & The Atheist.
How well do you do when it comes to serving beer?
b&
Jesus and an atheist walk into a bar… and have a beer together!
Or wine. Jesus is big on wine.
A lot of Christians are big on whine, and Donahue is up near the top.
If Jesus asked for wine, I’d order him water, then see what he did with it.
A drunk is sitting on the street curb in front of a bar.
A stranger comes by and asks if he’s O.K.
The drunk replies by asking, “Do you know who I am?”
The stranger says “No. Who are you?”
The drunk proudly says “I’m Jesus Christ…and I can prove it! Come with me!”
They enter the bar and the bartender looks up and yells “Jesus Christ! Are you here again?”
🙂
And what does he mean by “take your mitts off Catholics”, as if the lawsuits brought by the FFRF are antagonistic and unfounded?
“I’ll be a halfway-decent person if you atheists stop trying to keep theocrats from breaking the law.”
Emotional diarrhea. He is a pretty good example for how unreliable Big Faith is at providing its disciples with compelling arguments for their truth claims.
Emotion never adds to the truth of a claim. And even if his comments are tenable, this does not mean Yahweh exists. And so I’m left to consider, once again, that such outbursts are just to help convince themselves and allay their own doubts.
Mike
Does this jackass have any credentials or expertise in any area (other than whipping up unjustified outrage, that is)?
just take your hands, your mitts off the Catholics during Christmas
You’ve got a deal there Mr. Donohue as long as the Catholics keep their hands/mitts off the children for the entire year.
*snerk*
+1!
*chortle*
+2
A 4 year old who believes reindeer fly is happy. But he cannot appreciate the intelligence and teamwork it takes to design and build a Boeing 777. Yes, our 4 year old is happy, and ignorant.
…and a 4 year old has a decent chance of growing up and no longer being happy with thinking that reindeer fly and learning to appreciate the intelligence and teamwork it takes to design and build a Boeing 777. And it is undoubtedly true that a 4 year old have a greater life expectancy than his/her older self. Donohue gets the short end of the stick; his life expectancy is shortened, but he never grew up.
I have two words for Bill Donohoe: Carl Sagan. Oh, would Donohoe come back at me and say that Sagan didn’t live to be an old man because the stress of his atheism finally did him in? Wow, you have no idea how much I loathe Donohoe.
By the way, I know that PZ Myers is now persona non grata with Professor Ceiling Cat, but four years ago Myers wrote a blog post called “Donohoe vs. Hawking” that’s so good that I had to bookmark it for future reference. I’d link it here but I don’t want to get anyone upset. But if anyone wants me to post it in this comments thread, I will. Yeah, I have problems with Myers too, but this particular post from 2010 is excellent.
And thanks for that great Shaw quote. That’s called nailing it.
Unfortunate mistake. It wasn’t Donohue, Myers wrote “Donohue vs. Hawking.” Thanks for the suggestion.
Wow, that IS a terrible mistake! Maybe Jerry can fix that. How embarrassing.
Thanks for correcting the error!
It’s here (I hope none are offended): http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/06/09/donohue-vs-hawking/
I like Hawking’s line about reconciling religion with science: “Science will win because it works.”
Ha! Donohue said that humans played a pivotal role in the universe! I didn’t think people could be so vain as to believe in a reverse astrology.
For the curious, PZ’s piece is here. It really is an excellent takedown of Donohue’s vain blathering.
“[..] science arose out of Catholicism in the same sense that plumbing, sanitation systems, and public health policies arose out of sewage.”
It’s a thing of beauty.
Graci’
I looked up the Shaw quote and according to Wikiquote it is from 1913. I know from Ms Jacoby’s book that Ingersoll, Payne and lots of other 18th and 19th century folks were making very strong anti-theist statements, but I’m still always impressed by how fresh century-old (and older) quotes can feel (when I endorse the sentiment).
Atheists and agnostics are less happy and have more mental health issues than believers. Conservapedia has references to back this statement. I guess ignorance really is bliss.
PCC nails it, as always. Donohue is committing the fallacy of “appeal to consequences”. From my experience, this is extremely common among the religious, and would vitiate their argument, even *if* their specific claims and statistics were accurate, which I seriously doubt (see #3 above).
Second Barry Lyons’ approbation of the Shaw quote.
If Mr. Donahue is an example of the happiness and contentment that religion brings, I’ll take the empty, nihilistic and soul crushing emptiness of atheism any day of the week.
> for many believers say they really prefer the “old-time atheists” like Nietzsche and Camus, who, fully grasping the implications of their nonbelief, were thrown into the pit of nihilism.
Has anyone told them that Nietzsche accused Christianity of being nihilistic?
You can complain all you like about Billy D but you have to admit he gets his seat at the table. I have a gut feeling he makes more television appearances than all the atheist organization PR people added together.
He also pulls down a very healthy income indeed as the spokesman, designer, head researcher, and chief bottle washer of The Catholic League, a gigantic organization which consists, pretty much, of Bill Donohue.
Seriously, we could use some atheist spokespeople with his chutzpah, energy, and outrage. (Just not with his nonsensical arguments). I have to admit, he is a bit of a hero to me.
Well, Hitchens was one of course. David Silverman does well. Matt Dillahunty is definitely one to watch.
Atheism is limited by its refusal to make stuff up. That’s what gives religion its edge.
Great GBS quote.
Perhaps the reason atheists are less happy in America is because of the constant negativity and hatred spewed at them by theists. Perhaps the stress if this is what leads them to die younger, and leave them more likely to suffer a mental illness. Perhaps this git should look at himself in the mirror and ask if his constant vitriol could be contributing to the suffering to some of his fellow human beings. F**kwit.
Your hunch looks to be correct! According to this piece by Craig James, atheists are unhappier only in countries with lots of religiosity – it’s the religious folks bringing them down! But it’s not the case that atheists bring the religious minority down in godless countries. Here’s the link: http://religionvirus.blogspot.de/2012/03/myth-busted-religious-people-are-not.html
If I remember correctly we faired pretty well in some of those dubious happiness surveys.
And coincidentally scored pretty high on intake of various mental health related medications. 🙂
It’s like the US has a factory that produces these people.
Paraphrasing: “Think you might go crazy and end up living under a bridge or in a mental asylum? Join us, the Catholic Church. We’ll take care of the crazy.”
I wouldn’t be too sure. Indeed, I’d guess the opposite.
We already know that atheists are almost absent from the prison population, and that disproportionate percentages of the mentally ill wind up in prison because they’ve nowhere else to go. Also, statistics of social disfunction tend to correlate with religiosity; compare Scandinavia with Mississippi.
As a last point…those with gods are going to be more likely to eschew evidence-based solutions to physical and mental health in favor of witch doctor prayer nonsense. That’s going to skew the numbers as well.
Now, I could certainly believe that the religious might be more eager to plaster on an artificial happy happy fun smiley face to mug for the pollsters…but I’m pretty sure that any objective measure is going to reveal the truth. With more religion is going to come more divorce, less education, more abortion, less income, more poverty, less self-sufficiency, and, in general, more misery and less happiness.
b&
Oh my gosh I babbled on for ages (below) and didn’t even think to mention poverty, criminality and untreated mental and physical health! You are right on and that really blows the happier believer trope to smithereens. If a violent felon is “happier” or lives to a ripe old age in the pen, that’s great I guess. For him. And it makes Shaw’s happy drunk look like a net plus for society.
Not sure about abortion though: I think I’ve read that abortion is far less damaging to women’s overall health than bearing and raising children is. The proper and consistent use of contraceptives is a boon to women’s health (not to mention quality of life of kids thanks to family planning), so there is a good chance atheist females have the advantage there – it’s a crime that the religious fight the right to choose.
Abortion should be an option for anybody to consider…but it’s always preferred to not get pregnant in the first place.
But I’d make a side bet: the religious are much more likely to seek an abortion because of a failure to use contraception in the first place, whereas the sane are much more likely to seek abortion because the contraception itself failed.
(And, of course, there’re all the various most unfortunate medical conditions whereby an otherwise-wanted pregnancy isn’t going to work out…I’d expect more atheists to opt for abortions in those scenarios than the religious, but those’re going to be a small fraction of the number of procedures performed.)
b&
You mean, women’s bodies just can’t shut that stuff down? Damn.
Only in the case of legitimate rape…
I guess he never heard of Bertrand Russell…
I’ve heard the believers-are-happier-and-live-longer assertion before, so I was encouraged to see that Robin Cornwell has a paper that refutes it.
Many years ago my then-father-in-law repeated the assertion to me and I rememebr thinking at the time that, were it accurate (and I doubted it then and still do), there are likely explanations for the data, including many that would point to a different interpretation. Shaw’s rejection is pure poetry. To Jerry’s point, “self-reported” is key: it is possible that atheist would be apt to be more in touch with reality and/or frank about his or her true disposition; the little religious instruction I got as a kid included not telling people you were bummed because it might bring other people down, as that was a sin. So to be religious can mean feigning cheerfulness and optimism. I mean, just look how cheerful Mr. Donahoe is! Just another sunbeam for Jesus!
I can also imagine a person who sees his or herself as someone who believes or should do asserting belief that isn’t really there or aserting belief despite its not being very strong, because it’s “just what you do.”
I have known people who abandoned their faith due to adversity, but then I also know that most folks cling that much harder – or “find God” – when things are tough. I doubt the “studies” that make the happier believers claim delved very deeply, but a real study might want to account for these various data points.
The longevity claim can similarly be expected to have nuances and more earthly explanations. Are believers any more likely to be married and remain married into old age? Do believers have more children, on average, and are they more likely to have kids who don’t move away? Having family at hand might make a difference in longevity, if only because there is a body in the home to call 911 if one has a heart attack or has fallen and can’t get up. If there is any difference in those points, that might be an advantage religion can rightly claim – but they are still not supernatural, and are benefits that would also accrue to a non-believer when the situation is the same.
There are lots of other lifestyle attributes and issues – degree of risk-taking, career choices, environmental quality of a person’s home town – that might correlate modestly as a group with being religious or not; but a scientific study would almost certainly show that individuals benefit from their behavior independent of belief.
Before I would take a claim about happiness or life extension seriously, I would like to see the underlying data worked hard. It would be great if the church were willing to put its money where its mouth is: a true, scientific study of the correlation of belief and health would be very instructive. In fact, I think it would be fantastic if the results were broken out by movement and sect to see which one is the bestest! Although I suspect the results would not be received very well by Mr. Donahoe: atheists would not be at the bottom of the ranking, and Catholics would most likely rank well below Mormons, Shintos, Tibetan Buddhists and liberal Jews.
Sometimes we take a long time to say very little.
Anyway, I’ve heard more sense from the National league or the American league than anything from the Catholic league.
Does anyone else think “The Catholic League” sounds like a group of villains in a DC Comic book? They seem like Hydra (which I know is Marvel but still). There should be The Atheist League of America which would of course me the good guys (like the Justice League). You could even have an oath like Green Lantern’s:
Look! They have an “oath”! Which almost the same as a PRAYER! The Atheist League is no different from the religious leagues!
Sense 5?
Atheist Avengers assemble!
AA»
/@
Hi, my name is Matt (The Group: Hi Matt!). I’m an atheist, and I haven’t believed in God in 3 years.
I actually never have, but it isn’t as funny that way….
(PNG here.)
Wha!?
You mean that people who are members of the most hated minority group and are targets of entrenched prejudice and distrust, live less and are unhappier?
Crazy!
/sarcasm
I would like to see a study that controls for the prejudice in the society when measuring minorities’ supposed happiness.
(Also, enraging that bigots bring unhapppiness to a minority, then have the gall to use the unhappiness THEY CAUSED as a factoid to attack that minority again.)
maybe not “attack”, but gloating and laughing over someone’s shorter lifespan and unhappiness is disgusting too
No doubt, the congenial, beneficent gentleman would hold that Roman Catholics live longer and are happier than any Protestant sect like, e.g., Southern Baptists.
Isn’t it about time for Donohue to debate some Protestant for all the world to see?
The “Reasonable Doubts” podcast people have discussed the data and the say that whether believers are happier than heathens depends on the level of certainty that each holds. Confident atheists are just as happy and healthy as confident believers; it’s those on the fence who suffer.
Given the ratio of believers to atheists who seek out exorcisms as opposed to Zoloft, I don’t see how believers have the edge on handling mental illness.
The guy reminds me of Archie Bunker.
Those were the days!
Ok, and nom,nom ,nom… just for good measure!
I would favor mental stability in an atheist before the mental balancing act required of any religion.
Given his past utterances, I’d say we should laud Bill Donohue for doing more harm to the Catholic cause than a dozen pedophile priests could do to a jamboree.
I sometimes wonder if the Holy See is so happy with this layman, whose exclamations they can’t control by, say, moving him to a deserted parish on Craggy Island.
‘Ted, you big bollocks’ -Dougal.
Commenting on the difficulties of getting “Lolita” published in the early 1950s, Nabokov remarked that “there are at least three themes which are utterly taboo as far as most American publishers are concerned”. One of those is “the total atheist who lives a happy and useful life, and dies in his sleep at the age of 106”.
Well, he is right about one thing: we ARE more likely to enter mental institutions. As psychologists, therapists, etc.
Lol.
This is similar to the “atheists just wanna sin” that I keep hearing. If they can’t take your criticisms of their religion than they just resort to ad hominem.
I would like to express my opinion on this, since I’m both an atheist and I find myself having frequently low moods or some feeling of dissatisfaction.
One thing I know for sure: it’s not being atheist that makes me unhappy, quite the contrary, the fact that I’ve stopped to believe in gods and religions is kind of a relief for me. I call it one of the best decision of my life – or better yet – the best series of decisions, since the whole transition from 100% catholic to 100% atheist was very progressive and did happen over the course of many years. From when I embraced the idea that there’s nothing supernatural in this world, i got this feeling that “everything fits together” that I always missed when I was a believer. And this is a LIBERATING thought!
The only thing that I could concede is that my atheism and my bad moods are indeed correlated, in the sense that they are both the product of a common cause. I’m not an expert in psychology or cognitive science, but it seems to me that my “cognitive style” or something like that pushes me to be both atheist and melancholic.
I see the idea that non-believers are unhappy (outside of very religious societies) have been rejected by research.
Now I’m going to do a Jerry and pull out from behind that sign – Sweden! If non-believers have any problem with longevity, it doesn’t show up. In fact, the nations that report the least religiosity could be expected to correlate well with average longevity.
I suspect that it this could be found as a fact. I also suspect that some of the factors that make non-religious on average more intelligent, such as education, also promote longevity.
Donahue is a Liar For His Magic Drug Of Happiness&Trade. And his ideas makes some people unhappy. Does he care? Of course not, he is Happy!
I’m with Shaw here. Not to knock on drugs in all cases, but what do they tell on social functionality?
Liar For His Magic Drug Of Happiness™.
Donohue is correct. The research is clear about the positive correlation between happiness and religion (though correlation is not necessarily causation!)…
It does put paid to the idea of religion being a parasitic meme however!
Here is a quote from Wiki: “Surveys by Gallup, the National Opinion Research Center and the Pew Organization conclude that spiritually committed people are twice as likely to report being “very happy” than the least religiously committed people.
An analysis of over 200 social studies contends that “high religiousness predicts a lower risk of depression and drug abuse and fewer suicide attempts, and more reports of satisfaction with sex life and a sense of well-being. However, the links between religion and happiness are always very broad in nature, highly reliant on scripture and small sample number. To that extent there is a much larger connection between religion and suffering (Lincoln 1034).”
And a review of 498 studies published in peer-reviewed journals concluded that a large majority of them showed a positive correlation between religious commitment and higher levels of perceived well-being and self-esteem and lower levels of hypertension, depression, and clinical delinquency.
A meta-analysis of 34 recent studies published between 1990 and 2001 found that religiosity has a salutary relationship with psychological adjustment, being related to less psychological distress, more life satisfaction, and better self-actualization.
Finally, a recent systematic review of 850 research papers on the topic concluded that “the majority of well-conducted studies found that higher levels of religious involvement are positively associated with indicators of psychological well-being (life satisfaction, happiness, positive affect, and higher morale) and with less depression, suicidal thoughts and behavior, drug/alcohol use/abuse.”
“I’d rather be a more dolorous knower of the truth than a credulous person who spends his life fingering rosaries and confessing sexual peccadillos in hope of finding eternal life.”
I agree. And, although this wasn’t necessarily the subject of the post, I believe the attitude in that quote reflects the problems with moral/value theories that appeal to “happiness” as drivers of human behavior, and which hold that happiness it the most fundamental value that makes sense of morality.
It makes an initial intuitive sense. Doesn’t it seem “obvious” that we all want to be happy? Isn’t it “obvious” that you can see everyone’s actions are in one way or another seeking to increase their happiness?
Except it just doesn’t really seem to hold up when you look closer, and in fact tends to start looking absurd, in some of the ways Jerry and people here are already pointing out. (All sorts of absurd beliefs could perhaps make people happier, but we recognize that there is something wrong about this).
(This is why I find the theory based on desire-fulfillment to be more compelling.
The thesis that “we seek to fulfill our desires” is more fundamental and can be more comprehensively applied to human behavior than the thesis “we seek to make ourselves happy/happier.”)
Who exactly *is* the Catholic League? Is it true that BD is basically the only guy? I do find it odd that he speaks up continually and not, say, some cardinals or something.