by Greg Mayer
A little over a week ago Jerry noted a puzzling piece on the New York Times website by Stephen Asma that praised the theory of “Qi” and drinking turtle blood as interesting and worthwhile concepts. Jerry had a go at some of Asma’s confusions, and now in the Times Massimo Pigliucci and Maarten Boudry have their turn at bat, with Asma being the ball.
In their piece, called “The Dangers of Pseudoscience”, Pigliucci and Boudry note why it is useful to distinguish between science and pseudoscience, and emphasize especially the importance of doing so with regard to medical claims.
Asma’s example of Chinese medicine’s claims about the existence of “Qi” energy, channeled through the human body by way of “meridians,” though, is a different matter [than aspirin]. This sounds scientific, because it uses arcane jargon that gives the impression of articulating explanatory principles. But there is no way to test the existence of Qi and associated meridians, or to establish a viable research program based on those concepts, for the simple reason that talk of Qi and meridians only looks substantive, but it isn’t even in the ballpark of an empirically verifiable theory.
They stress the importance of understanding the underlying causes of phenomena (e.g. the placebo effect), rather than applying fanciful words to the phenomena. They appropriately note that, “The notion of Qi, again, is not really a theory in any meaningful sense of the word. It is just an evocative word to label a mysterious force of which we do not know and we are not told how to find out anything at all.” They rightfully conclude
The borderlines between genuine science and pseudoscience may be fuzzy, but this should be even more of a call for careful distinctions, based on systematic facts and sound reasoning. To try a modicum of turtle blood here and a little aspirin there is not the hallmark of wisdom and even-mindedness. It is a dangerous gateway to superstition and irrationality.
sub
sub
Boudry is also a noted critic of ID: see eg Volume 85, No. 4 THE QUARTERLY REVIEW OF BIOLOGY December 2010
and hos 2011 dissertation, University of Gent; Here be Dragons
Exploring the Hinterland of Science
I tried to explain to a fundie what a placebo is and how they are useful (or not), and why needles and chi and chiropractic are what they are instead of what people want to believe they are. I could not find any vocabulary to accomplish my goal.
I’m not sure I could then. It’s hard for me to imagine an adult who doesn’t understand the concept.
/@
If you come up with words that work, your presence is urgently required on the Anti-Vaccine Advocate Emergency Ward. Stat.
Not that many weeks ago on local network (non-FOX!!) TV news, there was a spot on some questionable remedy, specifics of which I’ve forgotten. At the end the anchor woman voiced some cautionary words, but then added, “But it’s as effective as placebo.”
(Facepalm!)
Anyone feeling too good, and wishing for some despair, just read the comments following the article.
Always good to see a prominent article from the other side of the culture wars be countered by another article from our side. The authors do an excellent job, with information that should be unassailable. The comments that beg to differ are a bummer (thanks..) but pseudomedicine and other forms of woo are very popular. So the war continues.
I totally agree, extremely depressing.
I haven’t read it yet but I heard Paul Offit’s Do You Believe In Magic is very good.
Exactly right. Comments on the Stone columns are usually not too bad, but these were generally dreadful.
Note that Pigliucci and Boudry are co-editors of a new book on The Philosophy of Pseudoscience. I started reading Pigliucci’s introduction to the demarcation problem. The book looks good, like a meaningful contribution of philosophy to intellectual arguments about science.
That great line from Tim Minchin’s Storm again comes to mind. You know what they cal alternative medicine that actually works? Medicine.
Cheers,
b&
I found myself in a similar situation with omeophat’s believers. I really have difficulties in understanding how also qualified people, as doctors in medicine, can really believe in such things…
HELP!
A minor quibble, perhaps off the mark in the context of the above quote, but I thought there have been scientific tests of this — at least where it concerns the purported relationship of meridians, Qi, and its use in acupuncture. Perhaps there’s more scientific tests that have been devised for “acupressure” and the like(?)
One merely does case/control between groups of patients: one administered using so-called experts in Qi/meridians and the other arm using placements administered at random. I think such arms have been done (as well as another arm using sham acupuncture), and nothing performed better than placebo. That seems to support the non-existence of Qi/meridians as far as I’m concerned. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Sometimes I’ll find myself tallying up the potential side effects of the “medicines”advertised on TV. After getting possible depression, anaphylactic shock, heart disease, stoke, cancer, possibly DEATH, it doesn’t seem like an improvement in medicine any more.
The key word is “potential”, so it depends on how you do the math. If you believe that a single person dying from a very rare side-effect outweighs the benefit to thousands or millions living longer or better, then it’s true that most modern medicines aren’t an improvement. The people for whom the drug is safe and efficacious might beg to differ, though.
People like Jenny McCarthy make the same argument against vaccines: she believes a single severe adverse event after a vaccine shot is an unacceptable trade-off for eradicating little nuisances like, oh I don’t know, polio. (Of course she also believes vaccines cause autism and the web is a reliable source of medical information, so we already know she’s not to be taken seriously.)
Is it really worth risking death and endangering your family just to raise your testosterone level? When you watch the drug ads on TV, pay attention to all the potential side effects they list in a fast monotone while they’re trying to distract you with the pretty and pleasant pictures of happy couples, outdoor living and virile, active men.
Of course, you have to weigh the risk according to the benefit. I had zero hesitation getting my children vaccinated. I worry more about the risks of my daughter cycling to school, to be honest. Not sure if I’d ask my doctor if Viagra is right for me (should that sad day ever arise), because with my already elevated BP, the upside wouldn’t be worth the risk.
Also, I think you need to view in AE warnings on drug ads in the light of the litigious society we live in. A lot of it is for CYA purposes, on a par with “Objects in mirror are closer than they appear.”
Personally, I think the main issues the main medical community has with “alternative” medicines are a) it tends to be a lot cheaper and therefore potentially very competitive depending on the results, whether placebic or not, and b) some “alternative” medicines, like naturopathy, tend to stress healthy living, and healthy people need much less medicine. Much healthier people=much less profit.
A) it’s cheaper in part because there is often no R&D involved and in part because it doesn’t have to pass rigorous testing and be cleared by the FDA. You don’t know what the hell is in that “all natural” supplement.
B) any good MD will encourage you to live a healthy lifestyle. A lot of people require medical intervention anyway, and it’s a good thing it’s available.
You talk about drug side-effect warnings as though you think they are a list of likely outcomes. Did you know getting in your car and driving to the store can result in death? DEATH!
Never mind driving.
Simple water is deadly. Many die from inhalation. Many more die from drinking contaminated water. A few even die from drinking too much water.
Yes, of course. Ideal is to be healthy and not need any medication. And most people can mostly do that mostly through diet and exercise. But not only is it very common for many people to eat poorly and not exercise, there are many for whom no amount of healthy living will cure what ails them. And while modern medicine might not be able to restore all those people to perfect health, and while many of the cures carry risks or even likelihoods of unwanted side-effects, the net result is such that you’re guaranteed far better odds if you roll the dice with modern medicine than with the shaman’s snake oil.
Even if the shamans have some good personal testimony advertisements.
We see similar thinking with the religious. As soon as a rationalist admits that not everything is known with absolute certainty, the religious will jump at that with, “AHA! See? This here ancient faery tale anthology claims it is the alpha and omega of all truth. It is absolutely certain and absolutely complete, which is something you don’t have. Therefore I’m right and you’re a poopyhead, neener neener.” Never mind, of course, that what they have is absolutely certain absolutely complete bullshit, and the rationalists often have five nines of confidence in their error bars….
Cheers,
b&
Face it, you know even less about what’s in that erectile dysfunction pill.
On the contrary. The ingredients are very well publicized, as are the results of the clinical trials. Any competent chemist should be able to manufacture any drug based upon the public literature, though doing so for resale generally has dire legal consequences.
Are there cases of fraud, where the pharmaceutical companies distort or falsify some of what they discover in their clinical trials? Of course. No human endeavor is without human parasites who seek short-term personal gain above all else. But, even then, the system is self-correcting; just look at the drugs that have been pulled from the market.
Again, rationality doesn’t offer perfection. It’s merely the smartest bet you can make.
Cheers,
b&
Also, I don’t know when I’ve ever had an MD, or even just a GP for that matter, NOT push pills on me.
Find me one doctor who will, for example, push a patient to statins before exhausting the possibility of lifestyle changes.
Of course, nearly all doctors do and should do what they can to keep their patients current on vaccinations.
If all your doctors are “pushing” pills on you, then either you’re a lot more sick than you realize or you’re not understanding that, when they discuss treatment modalities with you, they’re presenting all evidence-supported options so you can make an informed decision as to how best get well.
Cheers,
b&
@Ben: Yes, you know what those ingredients are called but… what are they? What is their nature, and what do they do to you other than make you randy? What, for example, are in these herbal pills like Enzyte, that the pharmas manufacture and require no FDA testing because they’re herbal? Have you had the functions of panax ginseng and puncture vine explained to you, are do you simply take the pill without asking? An herbalist will take the time to describe what these things will do to you before you take them, if you ask. An MD, would probably have to hit the books first.
I can’t imagine a licensed physician writing a prescription for those herbal nostrums. And the MDs I’ve known will be more than happy to rattle off the top of their heads the mechanisms and pathways of the medications they prescribe, interaction concerns, what to watch out for as far as adverse reactions go (and what to do if they present), what the chances are that the drugs will work, what other treatments to pursue if they don’t, and so on.
And you know how they know all that?
They spend many years and many tens of thousands of dollars going to school where they study exactly that stuff until they do know it cold. And, because they’re professionals, they stay current with the latest developments in the field.
Plus, as already noted, the lax regulation and oversight of the herbal supplement market has demonstrably resulted in levels of contamination and impurity that would result in nationwide scandal and outrage if discovered in prescription pharmaceuticals.
Cheers,
b&
ophu –
GPs are MDs.
An herbalist will explain medicine to me while a medical doctor will be at a loss? I’d very much like to test that theory.
Sometimes pills are the most efficient and effective way of treating an illness. Not all illnesses, but like I wrote, a good MD will advise efficient, appropriate treatment, which may not involve pharmaceuticals. But you don’t think you’re going to yoga and quinoa your way out of MRSA, do you?
Speaking of not knowing what’s in a pill the herbal supplements industry has much more explaining to do than the pfarmaceutical industry:
“A DNA test of herbal products has found that most of them contained cheaper fillers and plant ingredients not listed on the label, some of which pose “serious health risks.
Product substitution occurred in 20/44 of the products tested and only 2/12 companies had products without any substitution, contamination or fillers,” Steven Newmaster, an integrative biology professor at the University of Guelph and his co-authors concluded in Friday’s issue of the journal BMC Medicine…”
http://www.richarddawkins.net/news_articles/2013/10/11/herbal-product-contamination-considerable-dna-tests-find
Herbs can also be deadly and many poisonous and even carcinogenic herbs are used in herbal remedies i.e Aristolochia.
Particularly want to emphasize that unknown herbs can be poisonous. For that matter, known herbs, such as Digitalis Purpura, from which the very valuable drugs, Digitalis and Digitoxin, are derived – ARE dangerous. Digitalis has a narrow therapeutic index, and the amount of the active ingredient can vary plant to plant. St. John’s Wort has been proven, in clinical trials, to be an effective antidepressant — and it has side effects similar to those of prescribed psychotropics (triggering photosensitivity, for example, as do many psychotropics.). An excessive amount of carrot juice can ALSO be toxic – again, this is documented in case histories. (At toxic levels it turns people orange — John Boehner?) I’m serious, it really does.
Your example of carrot juice is a particularly apt one.
I like carrots. I probably go through about a pound a week. They wind up in salads, mirepoix, or just as a snack.
It would be very hard to eat enough carrots to do yourself damage. There’d be an awful lot of chewing, for one, and you’d get full and / or bored before you’d have anything to worry about.
It would be very easy to chug enough carrot juice to do yourself damage. Doing so bypasses all the feedback mechanisms — especially satiation — that would normally prevent that sort of thing.
A physician will know all this, and would thus be quite unlikely to advise somebody to drink carrot juice — though said physician would happily endorse including carrots as part of an healthy diet.
A quack, on the other hand, will tell you that carrot juice cures cancer.
And let’s not forget that hemlock tea is an entirely natural herbal “medicine”….
Cheers,
b&
Some years ago during the time of Uri Geller, the alleged psychic, I learned to do his trick where he turned the time on a wristwatch forward or backward. It was not difficult to do with a little practice. I demonstrated this to a Geller admirer and showed him exactly how it was done, and he said no, I should show him how I really did it, implying that I had used psychic powers like Geller. The power of self deception can truly be overwhelming.
At about this time a pair of engineers at Stanford Research Institute (and scientologists to boot if I remember correctly), published a paper in Nature on Gellers alleged remote viewing abilities. The quid pro quo was that they would submit their raw data for others to analyze later on. About ten years later there was a note in Nature that they had not yet received the data and that the publication was no longer to be considered a valid scientific work.
So, tell us! What do you do Geller’s trick?
(where “what” = “how”) doh.
Sounds like a job, for You Tube.
Exactly my reaction! Well, with the right adverb, of course.
😀
The trick involves manipulation that at this moment I am at a loss as to how to write up without appropriate pictures. It has really to be seen to be properly demonstrated, and I remember now learning it from a text with figures showing the watch and finger placements. I could produce such a text with appropriate photos but that would take time. Evidently magicians are sworn to secrecy about how they do their tricks and I wonder if I would incur their ire if I did post such a demonstration.
Or, if you’re a magician who doesn’t want to be hassled to come up with the necessary complicated lectures and images to explain the trick, you could just say, “I’m sworn to secrecy.” Try to look mysterious while saying so.
Well, I obviously was not sworn to secrecy years ago when I showed the Geller fan how its done. But aging has made me older (unfortunately) and wiser(yay!) and I have learned to keep my mouth shut in various situations, and manage to look mysterious when I haven’t shaved for a while. Looking mysterious doesn’t work with my wife however, and she does have a mysterious ability to read my mind.
Perhaps you would be so kind as to ask your wife to tell us about this trick.
You are so funny!
What bothers me about the ‘rebuttal’ was the statement that talking about Qi and Meridians is in any way scientific. There is an enormous body of knowledge about human physiology and anatomy and Qi and meridians don’t figure into any of it. It’s just marketing jargon.
Well, you can make testable claims about the existence of Qi and its effects. They did. The claims were wrong. I guess that allows for a scientific discussion in some sense of the term.
“The notion of
Qigod, again, is not really a theory in any meaningful sense of the word. It is just an evocative word to label a mysterious force of which we do not know and we are not told how to find out anything at all.”There, FIFY.
It is a dangerous gateway to superstition and irrationality.
This works.
I assume Asma is also unfamiliar with the Asian turtle crisis. Massive demand for traditional Chinese medicine is basically wiping out all of the freshwater turtles in China. The natural history of turtles precludes them from being sustainably harvested, not even taking into account habitat destruction and other major problems.
…wiping out all of the freshwater turtles IN THE WORLD. – FTFY
The US is a major exporter, did you know?
Interesting quotes coming from those paid by drug companies.
While I don’t believe ANY animal needs to die for the sake of healing humans (are you listening, drug companies?), I’m sure that some things considered to be ‘alternative’, simply because they don’t contain a toxic array of deadly chemicals and don’t harm animals in the making, DO actually work.
To tar every non-toxic alternative with the same brush, is typically infantile and smells of the fear of losing a long established and lucrative source of income in literally poisoning people to death.
How many people have entirely dissolved cancer from their bodies with simple carrot juice, when those who are supposed to give a damn about their health, condemned them to death with the statement, “sorry, it’s terminal”?
Give. Me. A. Break!
“How many people have entirely dissolved cancer from their bodies with simple carrot juice,…”
I don’t know, how many? Would you list them please?
I don’t either; although there was a well known stage hypnotist in Australia – Martin St James – who did cure himself of cancer with carrot juice and was interviewed by Sixty Minutes at the time. That was back in the 80’s. He’s still with us.
How was carrot juice identified as the operative factor? How was spontaneous remission (which while rare, does happen) ruled out?
If you seriously and sincerely believe that carrot juice cures cancer, I can only hope that you are not in any position to make critical decisions for anybody, yourself included.
And for you to suggest that oncologists simply give up on patients when they don’t know how to cure their cancers…that is reprehensible and insulting in the extreme. These are people who devote their lives to finding real cures for real diseases, diseases that really kill real people. And I’ve never even heard of an oncologist giving up on a patient. Even when they have no hope of a cure, they’re still applying themselves fully to palliative and hospice treatments to make the least worst of an awful situation.
And, unless carrot juice happens to be one of the patient’s favorite drinks, the absolute worst thing an oncologist could do is say, “I’m sorry, science has no cure, but if you just drink this glass of carrot juice you’ll be back in your feet in no time.”
b&
I think MHH is suggesting much worse: that oncologists do know there are (allegedly) cancer cures sitting right on your local grocer’s shelf, but they prefer to let people die, because they are evil bastards. I guess.
From the religious right to the granola left, I am amazed at how many people are so committed to resisting things that are good for them.
If so, then I really should bite my tongue lest I infringe upon Da Roolz….
b&
“But there is no way to test the existence of Qi and associated meridians, or to establish a viable research program based on those concepts, for the simple reason that talk of Qi and meridians only looks substantive, but it isn’t even in the ballpark of an empirically verifiable theory.”
Sounds like “Climate Change” to me.
Reblogged this on Mark Solock Blog.
Interestings comments on naturopathics medicine; but on omeophaty, who argues to avoid side-effects (and they do, as most of remedies does not contain ANYTHING apart from water/sugar), how can you possibly answer?
The problem with homeopathy, even when it really is only water or sugar and not something nasty (remember, these things aren’t regulated), is not only that con artists are taking money away from people in exchange for nothing of value, but many of those people then fail to get real treatments for real conditions.
I could possibly be persuaded to have some sympathy for a straight-up MD who prescribed distilled water as a special homeopathic preparation in place of antibiotics for a patient with the common cold if he knew that said patient was really into such things. I would prefer, however, that said MD use the opportunity to educate the patient on the true nature of the homeopathy scam, explain why no treatment really is the best treatment we have for the common cold, and then write a prescription (and recipe) for homemade chicken soup and bed rest.
Cheers,
b&
I am aware oh that, but really, how could you really try to convince e believer of that?
Anytime i tries, i get answers like: modern med do not cure all diseases, cancer is still not curable (on these i ask to you to help me find datas on the effects of chemo therapies), or arguments like ‘if it’s something really problematic, an homeo would send the patient to a MD’, or the usual ‘if it works for me and has no side-effects, why should i prefer other treatment?’…
Of course I see where they have a point, if you cure yourself from minor diseases (a cold) of course you will have non major problem even with homeo treats, eventually you will get well. Assuming that one person is healty, he will have to face many minor diseases and less or none (if lucky) deep ones. So he’ll still bee satisfied with his homeo treatments.
It’very hard trying to explain to a ‘believer’ what fallacies are under the theory itself of homeo, or better, it’s quite simple to point these out, but them seem to not hear from that ear.
Not everybody will be convinced, of course, and few on a single hearing. But none will be convinced if you don’t try, and fewer will be convinced unless they keep hearing the message.
Never underestimate the power of the Overton Window, in other words.
Cheers,
b&
Thank you for your time, really.
And excuse me for all the typos in previous comments :S
My ‘problem’ is that my gf’s father is an homeopath, and she obviously has been raised in that way of thinking. All in all, she’s studyin medicine, and that drives me crazy…how can you believe in such things having in front of you the evidences of a solid system as moidern medicine?! My opinion about university education grow worse every day, or better, i’m starting to think that despite any type of studies anyone decide to follow, the education received by family environment is much more effective and long lasting, especially in certain type of human being…
Well…as I noted, you can’t cure everybody of their delusions. Not knowing either you or your girlfriend or your relationship, I wouldn’t want to speculate on what sort of thing would work.
If she’s into humor, there’s a great Mitchell & Webb sketch that gets the point across rather well.
And…people almost never change their minds with the flick of switch. Even when they have a sudden realization that will eventually lead to them changing their positions, they generally need time to work it through.
Cheers,
b&
Thank you Ben,
and funny sketch too 😀