Things are getting pretty nasty these days, and I’m not sure why. Maybe it’s the influx of newbies who don’t read Da Roolz.
Lee Dinoff, whose remarks will never see the light of day again on this site, gets at least one shot defending chiropractic quackery. Get a load of this, which Lee tried to add as a comment to my post “Quackery of the month: Cincinnati Zoo uses chiropractic on tiger cub, adjusting spine to cure ‘failure to thrive’“:
Lee Dinoff
[JAC comment]: “I know that some readers say that chiropractic treatment has “helped” them, but the practice has no scientific basis, though …”
[Dinoff’s comment]: I am amazed at the level of ignorance when it come to supposedly highly educated people. Did I understand and read correctly that Chiropractic kills people that is a joke, if any profession has killed more people as a whole then perhaps you should take a good look at the medical as well as the pharmaceutical businesses. Your statements are so foolish and so infintile I question why you are in any position to state the scandalous statements that belched out of your big pie hole You are embarrassing and should never be permitted to voice any opinion but i thank god this is America where even the like of you sir the mentaly unstable have a right to speak there mind.
Well, if you Google the name Lee Dinoff, which he included in his post to be displayed, you’ll find that there’s someone by that name who’s a chiropractor in Georgia! At any rate, I’ll inform Mr. Dinoff when this post goes up, so, readers, say anything you want to him. I have to add, though, that I hope he learns to write. His grammar and spelling are a discredit to his “profession.”
As for the rest, there are no words.
I guess the incredulity and the spewing of invectives is enough evidence that chiropractic works. Geesh!!
An endless row of bathroom tiles?
🙂
+1 to infintile comment😬
Why am I not surprised that Kim K. is “obsessed” ?
I don’t think that means what she thinks that means. Fake, to quote the POTUS, dictionary definitions.
ha! i was pondering a definition. you nailed it. you should submit to urbandictionary.
Does aperiodic count as infinite?
The two concepts are … would “orthogonal” be the right word?
The best known (literally “classical”) infinite tesselations of the plane are periodic. But Penrose showed that an infinite tesselation with his “kites”, “darts” and “rhombi” can be aperiodic. I think he also proved that for any particular set of tiles, there are an infinite number of aperiodic tesselations. Similarly, there are a large (infinite?) number of periodic tesselations that are finite.
IANAmathematician, but I have a feeling that youre question is either counterfactual, or just doesn’t make sense.
GBJames’ word-play on “infintile” was an opportunity to illustrate infinite tiling patterns were an actual “thing”. That’s all.
Makes for at least a non-computable potential infinity sometimes.
This comes from two cultures. The idea that whatever I use or own is the best. If I drive a Ford, therefor they are the best and everyone should drive Fords. IF I use an electric shaver then everyone should. I have met and dislike people like this all my life. Rather than think on the merits of an issue or item, they use their own ego and self worth to be the standard.
This also is part of a culture that disdains education and social improvements. They seem to take a pride in not being informed, not willing to accept reality, and to loudly and forcefully promote their view. These are the people who can be shown that something they believe or advocate for is wrong, false, did not happen, and they will not change their mind or see their error. Hugs
Gosh, that comment reminds me of someone who has been in the news a lot lately and likely will be for another 4 years.
Hopefully not that long! Hugs
Anyone who seeks “medical” care from a chiropractor and ends up with any one of several dozen serious problems caused by manipulation of the spine or neck deserves it.
Hello Joseph. Everyone who wants to start any treatment should discuss it with their main doctors. I was advised by several people that my spine problem would be solved by an adjustment. I asked my doctor responsible for my spine about this idea. He was horrified and showed / told me how such an act, and pressure on my spine hard enough to move parts it could, with my degenerating bones, leave me paralyzed and in much worse condition than I was. In this case people were well meaning but did not know my full health issues and conditions. Thankfully I was smart enough to ask my doctor. Hugs
Far too many people assume that a person with a DR. in their title are actually doctors and may know something.
The fact is they know very little useful physiology and have even less knowledge of how the human organism functions as a unit.
You have some points. I worked in several hospital ICUs. I have known a lot of doctors. They are just regular people who have studied a subject. Some are incredibly smart and well versed in the subject. Some are not. Some earn respect, some don’t. I call my doctors by their first name and they do the same to me. If a Doctor insists on use of name and title, I do the same and normally once challenged they end the work relationship. Hugs
Shortly after the earth cooled I hurt my back doing some stupid thing. I went to see my doctor. I asked if I should go see a chiropractor. He said no that he wanted to try a slightly different approach. He examined me to check for a possible disk problem and discounting that he gave me three pills instructions and a sheet of exercises. In four days I was right a rain.
Three muscle relaxants and some rest + light exercise. Who woulda thought? I did miss the mandatory and useless x-ray, however.
Going on 60 years now and no problem or recurrence. Apparently, I was smart enough to only do the dumb thing once.
Grand! Glad you got well. Hugs
I like hugs.
In the UK, a person who is a medical doctor has a degree of Bachelor of Medicine and Chirurgy (Surgery). As a matter of courtesy, they are allowed to use the title of “Doctor”, but having never contributed any novel research to the universe, it is just a courtesy.
Never having dealt with the higher levels of medical education, I guess that at some point on the surgical or consultancy greasy pole people are expected to get a doctorate by research, but I don’t know at what level that occurs.
“people were well meaning”
It is no use being well-meaning unless you are also aware of your own limitations. Mr Dinoff is evidently not.
Conditions which not infrequently include paralysis and death. A small price to pay to deprive big pharma and the zioinist and masonic medical machine of a few bucks.
Zionist and masonic medical machine?????
yiamcross left off the /s tag.
(Incidentally, why do you suppose he is so cross? 🙂 )
Don’t ask. Is there a /s? I shall try to use it in future.
I’ve had several orthopedic doctors tell me that I might be helped by a chiropractor, and I’ve been fortunate that the chiropractors I’ve seen are sane people who would not think of adjusting a newborn human or a tiger cub. Nor do they do the “bone-cracking” kind of adjustments. But this is because of a condition that I have, not for any supposed “well-being” kind of benefit.
Good riddance. I have a personal rule regarding what I will or will not read online: if the author can’t spell, or cannot punctuate or write a cogent argument, I immediately move on. Also, if they resort to ad hominem attacks or have opinions that they cannot back up with evidence, I move on. That’s why I frequent blogs like this one daily. Life’s too short to waste time on the kind of tripe written by Dinoff and his ilk.
I agree, Greg. People who can’t punctuate or spoll are a total apostrophe. Do you make exceptions for byslexic bloggers?
I assume you mean “dyslexic” but yes, if they can pose a good argument I am all eyes/ears!
I think it was a joke, Greg. 😉
Hey Lee, ya want to align something, I’d start with your vocabulary, a more rigorous use of logic and rhetoric, and some judicious fact-checking.
it’s called coherence. it opens the nerve pathways between your brain and your blowhole.
LOL! +1
I clearly have no idea about anything regarding chiropractors. I’ve never been to one, but I always figured they were simply back pain and spine specialists in the same way you’d have eye doctors or dentists.
I had no idea there were chiropractors who made loftier claims about doing more than simply aiding back pain. I assume this is sort of like reflexology?
Oh man, you have a lot to learn about chiropractic. Not just about their claims, but how they extract dollars from your wallet in advance of treatment, sell you useless stuff, and do needless X-rays. Not to mention the lack of good training in many places.
The whole thing should be avoided as strongly as homeopathy!
At least homeopathy only requires the ingestion of water and not the risk of serious spinal and neck injury.
“At least homeopathy only requires the ingestion of water and not the risk of serious spinal and neck injury.”
While your claim is technically accurate as far as it goes, it is also missing something extremely important. Homeopathy *can* kill so it is not as benign as some may imagine.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/01/fda-confirms-toxicity-of-homeopathic-baby-products-maker-refuses-to-recall/
And, there are the consequences of not getting real medical care for a serious illness. Like those who rely on prayer and avoid doctors, using homeopathic remedies instead to treat, say, heart disease will not have a happy result.
Wouldn’t you know it, when there’s actually a detectable substance in a homeopathic “remedy” it’s a well-know poison.
Now there’s a thought. Homeopathic chiropractic. He doesn’t manipulate your spine and it cures you. The farther away he stands, the fewer motions he makes, the stronger the cure! Works best went you don’t even visit!
If only there were a “like” button here. You could be onto the Next Big Thing!! There would be punters out there prepared to shower you with cash for that.
Or maybe it’s already covered with Aura Manipulation and crystal healing. Or any one of the seeming hundreds of nonsensical spiritual healing scams but I’m sure there’s always room for another one.
Oh dear, yiamcross. It sounds to me like your chakras are out of alignment. 😛
Yes, unfortunately it is covered by “remote healers”.
I have one word for you – reiki.
So, for maximal homeopathic chiropractic effect, we need an immobile practitioner a long way away. Immobility, we can achieve using a Hoffa-esque concrete overcoat. A long way away … hmmmm.
I have a mental image of a dozen concrete-overcoated chiropractitioners on the bottom of the Marianas Trench being particularly good for US/ European back pain and “wellness.”
I’m trying to work up something involving lowering the concentration of chiropractic by putting their heads several feet under water and letting them agitate the oceans with their arms. but maybe it’s because I’m watching someone being water-boarded in English, German, Flemish, French and Danish. Scandi-noir, how would you get through the evening without them?
Sounds like the Bowen Technique:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowen_technique
Apparently (see the Science Based Medicine organization, etc.) there are a fair number of chiropractors also into homeopathy.
Ok but i don’t think there is such a thing as good chiropractic training. Really they can take x-rays? That is a lot of radiation!! I would not let them near an xray machine.
But…but…but…Kim Kardashian says they are life savers.
The chiropractor I visited once when I was about 19 also sold homeopathic remedies!
Did you keep any? They’ll be just as potent now. What clinically proven medicine can truthfully say that?
Ha ha! I never bought any though.
“You are embarrassing and should never be permitted to voice any opinion…”
Kettle/black.
I’ve had neck and back pain my whole life and have been going to chiropractors since I was a teen.
They have always helped me, moreso than physio and even massage therapy.
But…before you say ‘Hey Cindy, wtf are you defending quacks?’…
It is my opinion that chiropractors (at least some of them, depending on method) are merely glorified *massage therapists*. Whenever I go to my chiropractor we talk about quackery in her profession. I straight up told her that I believe that she is just a fancy massage therapist – and she agreed. All that she does, really, is deep tissue massage, and that seems to help me with my pain. I will *not* go to one of those chiros who snaps and cracks your bones, as that *is* dangerous. However, the lady that I go to really does just do deep tissue massage, and it works, because tight muscles and tendons are what is causing the pain.
A couple of weeks ago my entire right arm was numb from too much gaming, and she helped me by doing nothing more than stretching and massaging my arm. I suppose that a massage therapist would have been equally successful, it would have just taken longer (most massage therapist visits are half an hour to an hour, the chiro is 10 mins)
So yeah, it is my opinion that chiropractors, in general, are just glorified massage therapists, and that it’s ok if they, and you, acknowledge this. It’s when you start getting into ‘chiropractory cures cancer/aligns your Chakras’ and other bullshit that you run into pure quackery.
Speaking of quackery, when I was a teen, my mom was into the New Age movement, and we met these two elderly people who claimed to solve all of your health problems by…massaging your organs back into place. The ‘science’ behind this was that if your kidney had migrated down to your lower abdomen, that it could be ‘massaged back into place’ and your health problems would disappear. I kid you not. I remember sitting there, watching this old woman claim to be working her magic on my mom, and I was thinking that it was absolute insanity to claim that internal organs could migrate around one’s body, seemingly at will.
Did I mention..my poor mom also believed that crystals had healing properties…
But good news PCC, she is now a skeptic and she has been subbed to this site for over a year. I am so proud of her!
I know what you mean. I was referred to a neurologist some years back when I had a terrible pain which ran from my neck down my left arm. Agony, couldn’t sleep and it was going on and on. Friend of mine recommended osteopath and I happened to mention it to the neurologist who told me about the cases he’d had to deal with after people had visited the osteopath. Paralysis, broken necks and spines. Really nasty stuff.
He couldn’t do much for me either but at least he was honest about it and didn’t try to give me life threatening treatment. If they don’t lay out the risks clearly and openly then you’re not making an informed decision. They may be insured but I’d rather have mobility than a successful lawsuit for compensation.
@Cindy: “right arm being numb…”
I play a LOT of online poker & I quickly discovered [the hard, painful way] the importance of gaming ergonomics! That includes lighting, screen size/resolution, tweaking colours/themes in the game interface & of course regular eyesight tests
But just on the physical side of things here’s a couple of things that helped me with back problems & general aches/pains due to online gaming:
An ergonomic calculator based on ones height to determine ideal critical dimensions for your workstation: http://www.thehumansolution.com/ergonomic-office-desk-chair-keyboard-height-calculator.html
This mouse, although it takes some getting used to & it’s not liked by everyone: https://evoluent.com/products/vm4r/
The things that benefited me the most at the grand old age of 61 yrs:
** Medium-priced copy of the Herman Miller Aeron chair with armrests [important!]
** Set the backrest forwards to offer maximum lumbar support
** Set chair height so that your femur is horizontal & your feet touch the floor [heel & toes both]
** Set armrest height to same height as your keyboard shelf – when using the keyboard your upper arms should be almost vertical & close to your body. Forearms should be horizontal & supported by the armrests
** Set your monitor height so the top of the screen is at eye level [see calculator pic]
You’ll then have the same sort of posture as displayed in the calculator link above.
Then there’s all the obvious stuff such as taking plenty of beer breaks to walk about & rest your eyeballs!
Hope this helps
Thank you Michael! I will check out those links.
Yeah, I am currently using a 20 year old bargain basement office chair because it’s the only thing that doesn’t cause a tremendous amount of pain. I tried one of those 800$ ultra fancy padded office chairs and I just could not feel comfortable. It is *so* difficult to get ‘just the right’ setup.
@Cindy I’m lucky to be a guy!
Women being proportioned differently to men is a concept that hasn’t quite hit mass-market office chairs yet [cars almost as bad]. Even the smaller chairs are not right for women in various ways.
There’s huge market potential for anyone prepared to do the research/development on computer products for da womenz. Monica Förster’s Lei chair was a good try, but I don’t know if it’s hype or a good solution – I suspect hype.
Women being proportioned differently to men is a concept that hasn’t quite hit mass-market office chairs yet
#BLAMEtehPatriarchy
Yes, in my country, massage therapists who are graduates of nursing colleges do, among other things, manual therapy for lower back pain. I hope they know what they are doing, after they have studied anatomy (and with instructions from doctors what to do on the particular patient).
Besides, there is an occasional “self-learned” chiropractor, often without a high school diploma. Some of these people have a natural gift to sense and massage the body, others are mere quacks. You visit them at your peril.
I used to be a “chiropractor” to my father when I was a preschooler. He lied face down and asked me to walk on his back, and claimed to feel better afterwards. Now, I do not consider it a good idea.
“my poor mom also believed that crystals had healing properties…”
I believe that there are many crystalline compounds that when dissolved in an appropriate solvent and administered into a patient’s body by suitable means can provide therapeutic benefit…but I guess that was not the kind of crystal healing she was thinking of! 🙂
Cindy, what types of games do you play? Do you play through Steam? I’ve always been leery of multiplayer with strangers, but you and I get along well on here. Maybe we could game online some time!
I am currently playing The Elder Scrolls Online. I do have a Steam Account however I am not playing any games through it right now.
If you want to be friends on Steam I have no problem with that.
You’ll find me under the name The Great Catsby. Send me a friend request if you like. Or don’t. I won’t be offended 🙂
There are a whole bunch of them!
You have to tell me which on you are – avatar or something.
Ok I think I figured out which one you are.
Accept the invite!
Alas, I don’t think that chiropractors study grammar as part of their curriculum, and I’m certainly guilty of committing countless embarrassing grammatical faux-pas, so to criticize Dinoff’s lapses of the pen could be seen as the pot calling the kettle black; however, my Google search on Mr. Dinoff turns up this https://thedinoffschool.com/faculty/dr-lee-dinoff.
In addition to being a chiropractor, he is apparently also assistant principal of the Dinoff School. At first I thought it must be a chiropractic school; but no, it’s a high school or middle school “for gifted students” (without behavioral problems) run by his wife, and he teaches classes there (what are his credentials and prior experience? and do I smell charter school bucks to be had?), so here he should be held to strict account, and what a joke that is. If I had a child, gifted or not, judging just from the assistant principal’s English, The Dinoff School would most certainly not be on my list of schools to investigate if I sought quality education for my child.
I add for the school as for chiropractic, “Quack! Quack!”
“Doctorate Life University”
WTF does that even mean?
So, I looked up “Life University”, which states they are at the “forefront of the vitalistic health revolution”.
OK, now it all makes sense.
I just wrote this below but you’ve beaten me to the punch. Nonetheless, I offer it to anyone interested:
I find that Life University is a chiropractic school https://www.life.edu/#, which in the “about” section characterizes itself thusly: “We are vitalistic visionaries relentlessly committed to disruptive social innovation. Life University is breaking boundaries in disciplines across the health and wellness spectrum by impacting and inspiring future leaders to become life-change agents. We encourage our students to think freely and embrace reformative ideas allowing them to maximize their innate potential.” I also find this: “Academics are of utmost importance at LIFE, and we hold ourselves in the highest academic regard. Our students are big thinkers, world changers, risk takers and relentless pursuers of new ideas and solutions.” Such gaseous, empty set, cliche-ridden effluvia. Accreditation: https://www.life.edu/about-pages/basic-information/accreditation/.
As for the Dinoff School, though these gifted students probably don’t study English grammar and spelling, they must learn how to write execrable ad hominem invective under DC Dinoff’s tutelage — but he can’t even write stirring, witty invective, and I thought Southerners were past masters with the choice put-down.
Not the least objectionable thing about this drivel is hijacking the term “vitalism” to mean… well, nothing, really. An empty alliterative adjective. Hey, quacks– the 19th century called and they want their worldview back. Müller and Pasteur would smack you silly.
“Alas, I don’t think that chiropractors study grammar as part of their curriculum”
While true, educated people tend to pick up educated ways of communicating, so it says *something* when a person apparently doesn’t learn this.
And given that browsers usually flag misspelled words, you have to be exceedingly careless to misspell something these days.
You think that’s abusive and deluded! Go look at the comments from flat earthers on youtube when someoe with a modicum of education and an ability to reason tries to explain basic physics, maths and the scientific method to them. We are in the days of the glorification of gnorance. Won’t be long before there are bonfires of books and intellectuals are being strung up on the streets of the US.
I am genuinely concerned about the growth of the cult of ignorance and most of it seems to be nourished by religion because that’s the only way they can thrive. Education is their enemy and they know how to rouse the ignorant underclasses to start a witch hunt. Bad times are down the road and Trump is just one symptom. As are the Kardashians.
“Cult of ignorance.” I like that.
Jenny- I don’t because it’s a real growing thing that frightens the shit out of me. Not just in medicine but in all walks of life where the underclasses are beginning to live the cliche of “eat the rich” and seem to be getting close to the point of becoming the next Khmer Rouge.
I don’t feel I’m using hyperbole or getting over excited. There are a lot of them and as we see once they reach a critical mass they can vote their ilk into power. I think Trump and his heirs are going to be hard to dislodge simply because the downtrodden feel their time has come and when they look around them they have every reason to believe it has.
Dear yiamcross:
Ignorance and pride in ignorance has been with us for a very long time. The major difference is that instead of being quiet about it, they are being verbose and, in some cases, taking violent action. Just because ignorance used to be kept quiet, doesn’t mean it didn’t exist or take certain forms of action.
For the last forty years or so, wealthy people on the far right and/or evangelical sympathizers have been forming groups and putting huge amounts of money into modifying politics at all levels in our country. Read about the Koch brothers and their ilk, and follow the diagrams to the many organizations they have working against us. They are one of the reasons we have Trump who caters to all forms of wealth, however ignorant.
The reason I like your characterization is precisely because of what you’ve articulated here; and it frightens the shit out of me, too. Donald Trump trumpets it. Right now, he’s the national cult leader. And it’s not just the underclass. I meet and read about people from various walks of life and educational backgrounds, including ostensibly well-educated people, who are proud of being, not just ignorant but contemptuous of vary basic facts.
I think that this dovetails into your comments on flat-earthers and others of that ilk. Just in the past week or so, Kyrie Irving, an NBA star, proclaimed his belief in a flat earth. http://nypost.com/2017/02/17/cavaliers-star-kyrie-irving-says-earth-is-flat-and-everyones-lying/ (yes, this is from the Post, but the matter is encapsulated here and found on respectable websites). Another basketball player gave him props. This will gain credence with the ignoranti. Granted, one doesn’t usually look for intellectual discernment in basketball (which by no means is to imply that it’s lacking, just that I wouldn’t seek out someone in the NBA to enlighten me on such matters)but Irving certainly had the benefit of an excellent education and other opportunities. He attended Montclair Kimberley Academy (an independent academy, which prides itself on its academics) and St. Patrick High School (RC, now defunct), both in NJ, which according to Wikipedia are not slouch schools, so it wasn’t as if he didn’t have proper intellectual stimulation and exposure (even Catholic schools don’t teach flat earth ‘theory’ to my knowledge). I read that some other “celebrities” (of dubious credentials) also believe the earth is flat. http://people.com/celebrity/flat-earth-celebrities-world-not-round/ . I’m flabbergasted that anybody in the West in this day and age actually gives credence to such nonsense.
My own particular interest is in those who believe in the venomous conspiratorial obscenities of David Icke, he who promulgates the appalling doctrine that “Rothschild Jews”/Illuminati are really ravening, shape-shifting, reptilian aliens need to drink Aryan blood and who control the world (oh, yes, and the moon is really a spaceship cum docking station created by these reptilians).
lol- you had a very/vary Freudian typo in “vary basic facts.” I’m sure you did not mean alternative facts;-)
Thank you for pointing that out. I noticed it too late, but I’m okay with it because sometimes typos yield ways of looking at things that spark thought as well as humor.
Idiocracy coming to real life.
Neil Postman’s “Amusing Ourselves to Death” is a good read on that subject.
Bad grammar is a symptom of spinal alignment problems so I would suggest that Lee seek out a good chiropractor. The more expensive they are, the better they are, so I would recommend finding one that costs a zillion dollars.
What I’d say is, a little civility goes a long way. Also, a few links would’ve helped to defend the chiropractic profession.
There aren’t any links to defend chiropractors. You might as well defend creationism.
Ha ha ha, plenty do. Check out the growth of “flat earth theory” if you want to see some really demented and potentially dangerous people bat reality away faster than Federer returns a service in a Wimbledon final.
He punctuates as though there’s an impost on periods.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary EVIDENCE!!
Chiropractics in particular, much more so than homeopathy or other alternative medicines, seem to be a “normalized” form of alt-medicine to most people. (I strongly dislike the “normalized” terminology, but here, I think it might fit.)
I think the main reason for this is that chiropractors are just so commonplace. They’ve been around with their own practices since at least the post WWII era. Contrast this to homeopaths or naturopaths, who have really only come into mainstream vogue over the past decade or two.
In the Science Communications course I teach, many students are always stunned when we talk about what chiropractics actually are. Most seem to be under the impression that they are some kind of back-specialist doctors. And students always ask, “But aren’t they doctors?” Of course, they are Doctors of Chiropractics (D.C.), complete with 2-year post-secondary certifications, but the fact that they have literally no training as medical practitioners is something that stuns most of my students.
On a personal note, I have two uncles: one is an Ob/Gyn and the other a chiropractor (one is the husband of the other’s sister). You can imagine the family conflicts that ensued. I have to say though, they were certainly useful for me as a kid growing up, to actually learn the difference between a doctor and those who simply call themselves “doctors”.
Why is it that those who feel that it is necessary to post their outrage cannot spell let alone employ basic rules of grammar? Is this merely correlation or is there a causal relationship?
To me it indicates someone who is unable to think coherently and is incapable either by dint of ability or willingness to educate themselves.
Hence the blustering outpouring of words rendered nonsensical both by an inability to muster thoughts into a reasoned argument and to use language competently to express themselves.
The kind of person who is more likely to use their fists to argue because their head is no good for anything more than driving home fence posts.
It’s only a matter of time before quacks and charlatans accuse skeptics of being ‘Nazis’ 😛
Usually not a lot of time.
My experience over the decades with chiropractors has largely been very effective tweaking my lower back and neck. An equine vet and chiropractor has been very successful in fixing my dawg’s backbone too. As for my “failure to thrive”, I take responsibility for my own thriving.
Of all the ‘alternative’ approaches to curing what ails us I think chiropractic is the most effective. Like any practice there are those who are charlatans and want expensive ‘tests’ or x-rays. No chiropractor in my experience has ever recommended bogus ‘tests’ or x-rays, they just get to work and fix my bloody back!
“Very effective.” Again and again and again and again….
Is it at all possible that the impermanence of the “cure” is an indication that the placebo effect wears out?
My wife went to see a chiro for wrist pain. The guy did a laser treatment on her, which left a sunken area and bleached her skin, without helping her problem.
I considered suing the guy, but it seemed it would be too much trouble to prove it in court.
Chiropractors should only be allowed to practice in Egypt .
SNIGGER SNIGGER .
Oh, I get it. A Cairopractor.
Sorry you don’t like my childish sense of humour .lol
As a person with arthritis, I’ve enjoyed chiropractic manipulations for many years because (guess what?) they help! My little poodleX dog, Sadie, had arthritis, too and, when it was bothering her, she’d raise a back leg when she walked. My chiropractor would use an ”activator” on Sadie’s hip and…guess what again?…it worked. We know that because she’d put the leg down and walk/run normally.
No–I’m not a believer in ”woo” but I believe what I can see with my own eyes. (And feel in my own hip.)
I’m sorry, but believing in unproven, demonstrably dangerous practices is not very different from believing in “woo”.
Your personal experiences are what scientists call anecdotal evidence: You alone can’t determine reliably the real causality of things you think are connected.
Confirmation bias lets you accept things you expect or even wish to happen. Placebo effects can have real positive effects on you and your dog (aka placebo by proxy), but there are countless other placebo treatments without the risk of serious injury.
In short, if your subjective experiences differ from scientific findings, you should trust science more than your fallible, biased assessment.
See here for placebo effects on animals and here for Chiropractic on animals.
Yep
A combination of placebo, some focussed attention from someone who’s often sympathetic and caring and, with my accupunctire at any rate, half an hour or so in a darkened room with incense and mood music os bound to leave you feeling a bit better. I’d have said forget the needles, it’s the relaxing atmosphete leaves me feeling good but I didn’t want to upset the poor woman. Why did I go on the first place? I didn’t want to upset my wife and I made sure the needles came out of sealed packaging. Suffice to say my wife and I are no longer together and now when I’m sick I go see a doctor.
@zoolady
The “activator” your chiropractor used on your dog is a device invented by Arlan Fuhr that applies a very localised ‘hammer blow’ force to a vertebra. There’s not much energy in the blow [good thing!]. Chiropractors say it “adjusts” the position of the vertabra – as you’ll be aware it’s the device you can see it in action in the video in this post.
Do you really think it can “adjust” the position of your poodlex’s vertebrae? If it had the energy to do that it would also stress the nerve ‘cables’ inside the spine at a NOT INCONSIDERABLE RISK of paralysis. There is absolutely no movement of the positions of the vertebrae using the so-called “activator”
The honest name for the device is the “de-activator”…
And that’s the secret of the “activator” used on your companion – she was being ‘punched’ in the spine & thus arthritic pain signals from the hip to the brain were suppressed – she was NUMBED TEMPORARILY allowing her to use all four limbs FOR A WHILE & you were fooled & a few hundred dollars poorer!
I suggest that if your pooch is still with you that you try other FREE methods such as rest, massage, heat treatment & kisses
For humans with the same problem I suggest that these can help [not a cure for arthritis but help with pain]: lose weight, regular exercise especially swimming, busy brain to distract & Mary Jane of course – in cookies if you don’t smoke
Postscript: Obviously an “activator” that “works” [numbness]] on an ADULT may have a different [meaning bad] outcome on a KIDDO/CUB – their bones & musculature being so petite
Looking at the before and after…whatever she did WORKED. Now, dogs don’t have the ”placebo effect,” so it either works or it doesn’t. And, she would put down her foot and walk normally.
Why would you question what I’ve written? She never charged me for the services, by the way, so you can’t claim she’s a shyster.
I sense another agenda here.
I to sense an agenda. It is called education.
Before this comment thread gets too contentious y’all might want to have a look at Cindy’s comment (# 9 above) about chiro often being simply deep massage…makes sense to me…
If massage is all we are talking about that would be fine and I would say nothing. I am no authority on either. But I also listen to the others more familiar with the business of
Chiropractor and have seen many who have been. If it is simply massage, why do they put up big signs advertising Chiropractor and I know there is a difference in cost. I wish I had an editor that checked my comment before it went out – holy crap.
I know a lady who ran her massage business in the back of the office of a Chiropractor and they were not doing the same thing and not charging the same either.
I made sure to make it clear in my comment that I was not speaking of *all* chiropractors. This was just my personal experience and I think that in many cases it is true that they just fancy massage therapists.
The problem is, as you pointed out, there are loads of dangerous quacks out there – charlatans- and many people don’t know any better. And as others have pointed out on this thread, a lot of folks seem to believe that chiropractor is some sort of doctor. And they can do real damage with all of the neck cracking and so on.
I’ve had good luck with chiros, but it definitely is not representative. I also know enough to talk to them about what it is exactly that they do, and to be skeptical – not everyone will behave like that.
@zoolady
[1] I didn’t suggest that the “activator” works by placebo. Unless you consider a punch on the jaw making you forget about your broken leg is placebo. The suppression of pain signals to the brain through some other interference of the signal [by drug or by a jolly good physical shock] is NOT placebo. There’s therefore no requirement for the patient to have a ‘false’ belief in the efficacy of the treatment for it to work! It does work. FOR A WHILE.
[2] I was not aiming to offend you or your beloved dog Sadie
[3] So your chiropractor served your pet for free? Did your chiropractor also serve you for free? If you got free treatment for Sadie, then I expect it was a beautiful gesture from your chiropractor that also ensured that you came back for more treatments for yourself that cost you dollars. Right?
[4] Looking at the contents of my previous post to this one…
Please respond to the points I raised
[For example – is my analysis of how the “activator” works correct or not? And therefore what’s the point of a chiropractor when a free massage would be equally effective]
[5] Don’t be shy – what agenda are you speaking of?
[6] “Why would you question what I’ve written?” because your account is anecdotal & requires some effort on your part to fill in the details. Such as…
** How long Sadie was able to walk [4 legged] after the treatment
** Did you, yourself, try massage/manipulation or any other techniques to see if results were the same [but for free]?
You should not be defensive when someone questions your anecdotes. It is not an attack on your honesty zoolady.
Unless you consider a punch on the jaw making you forget about your broken leg
you forget about your broken leg but you are reminded that you are a Nazi!
Fuckin’ Nazis! I turn my back for ten minutes to make breakfast & already they have blitzkrieg motorcycle sidecar units machine-gunning my frontier po… ugh
[3] Compensation must not be money, social recognition is another big motivating force that explains the many layman “healers” out there.
As I wrote yesterday, you can’t assess what worked or not. Was it the chiropractic technique or just the increased attention the dog got from you and the chiropractor? Was there even an real improvement or just your wishful thinking come “true”?
If you don’t eat up today and it rains tomorrow, you (hopefully) wouldn’t think that you caused the rain. But if you get [insert “alternative” treatment here] today and you feel better tomorrow, you think the treatment worked. We all (and animals too, as research shows) are subject to these attribution errors. Being aware of them can help us avoid them by following the empiric research.
Humans are prone to many cognitive biases. The scientific method with double-blinded, placebo-controlled studies was invented to counter as many of them as possible.
A myth that’s especially common in non-empirical medicine. Placebo works on children and animals. See my other post for a link about placebo on animals or search the net for “placebo by proxy”.
Fun fact: Placebo even works if you know it’s a placebo.
This is interesting. I’ve heard conservatives complain about ”liberal” prejudices and attacks in public, but didn’t actually believe it until I posted in this thread.
Not ONE of you saw, felt, lived what I experienced when my dog was helped by a chiropractor (a casual friend, who offered to help when she saw my dog in pain.) She had absolutely no agenda, wasn’t looking for the publicity, etc. And shame on you for assuming that!
And yet, several of you felt soooooo confident of yourselves that you chose to flame me and my comments.
Know what? I suggest you all examine your consciences. You sound more like fans of the orange oligarch than people with open minds.
Goodbye.
There are people who believe that they objectively experienced a Near Death Experience and literally spoke to God because they *felt* that they did.
The fact that these people subjectively FEEL that they spoke to God while temporarily dead is not evidence that they objectively and scientifically spoke to God.
The fact that you FEEL that your dog was healed is not objective scientific proof that it WAS healed. You are making assumptions based on your subjective FEELINGS and not objective, measurable, scientific data.
We don’t deny your personal experiences, we deny your claim that they say anything about the effectiveness of Chiropractic.
Why do you fall back to personal attacks when your arguments get rejected?
Please contemplate what that may be telling about your argument. May it be false? If not, why the need to attack people instead of their arguments?
Ending an argument this way will never make you learn new things or the truth, which may not be what you believed for a long time. Please think about this. We’re here if you want to discuss it fair and polite.
So long.
Postscript II: Derren Brown [honest illusionist], Baptist healers [dishonest or deluded or both] & boxers/MMAs are all familiar with the principles that fool people into thinking they are experiencing/seeing a miracle of some sort
Alternative medicine is 90% this kind of bullshit
“Pick a card. Any card!”
Please explain your boxers/MMA fighters comment. I’m a boxing and MMA fan, and don’t understand what you mean. Thanx
Stuff like this brings me close to tears. Not just the fact that the baby was placed in mortal peril, but that the parents of the child are so gullible, and the chiro was not banned forever.
Here is the link.
Ooops. link
Thank you for an informative link.
I was particularly struck by the last paragraph I’ve put below between *****s: In an interview with news.com.au, Dr Chris Pappas said he was concerned by the footage released by Dr Rossborough particularly because “no scientifically proven benefits of chiropractic manipulation for young babies and children” exist.
“There are documented complications and injuries that have occurred because of spinal manipulation.
***** “What is concerning here is that the conditions which are being treated [colic and reflux] are harmless and self-limiting” *****
I certainly don’t think a chiropractor can effectively treat colic and reflux, but harmless and self-limiting they are not, at least not always. Reflux can cause serious damage if not properly addressed. In infants, particularly premature births, a common cause of reflux, and thus the behavior labeled “colic,” is that the LES is not fully developed and functioning yet. Sure, it usually will become fully functional given some time but if left untreated serious damage to the esophagus and even the lungs can occur in the mean time. Proper treatment for serious reflux is medication, an antacid and something to promote healing of the damaged esophagus.
I have nothing to say except that the comment posted is one of the funniest I’ve ever read. If he thought he was doing a service to the profession by posting it, he was sorely mistaken.
The chiro doth protest too much, methinks.
I know one chiropractor – He is a pilot and also a slum lord. It all seems to fit.
” Did I understand and read correctly that Chiropractic kills people…” Yes, you did, thanks for asking.
Deaths after chiropractic: a review of published cases, a review of 26 deaths due to vascular injuries associated with chiropractic manipulations, published in the International Journal of Clinical Practice. Note that this is not an exhaustive study.
We won’t miss him.
Sad to report that my vet offer Acupuncture for pets .
Anecdotal I realize: about 10 years ago my friend’s husband suffered a fractured cervical vertebrae at the hands of a chiropractor during a treatment. After arriving at the local hospital, he was transferred by jet to a hospital that had the orthopedic expertise to treat. Fortunately he wasn’t paralyzed and the chiropractor was well-insured.
This blog is devoted to science, and not smug and dismissive mockery, no? Then it’s worth taking note of kernels of truth in Dinoff’s post: “if any profession has killed more people as a whole then perhaps you should take a good look at the medical as well as the pharmaceutical businesses”. Remind me again of the death rates associated with medical error?
What kernel of truth?
(Risk is best conceptualized as a ratio or difference. Since chiropractic does approximately zero, its risk ratio is infinite.)
I remember an ad up at UBC when I was a graduate student, recruiting students to apply to a chiropratic college to do after an undergraduate degree. They *emphasized* how they had lower academic standards than a medical school – only a B+ average was required. Whatever one might think about that standard, drawing attention to the lower as a *selling* point was just weird, to say the least.
I just walked in, so I have no idea why this site is stomping on chiropractors. Look, chiropractic is nothing more or less than cracking knuckles in your shoulders, neck, hips and back. I’ve had it done myself when I had joints that got out of alignment, and it gave me much-needed relief. Since it’s a technology concerned with nothing but joints and bone alignments, it doesn’t require as much study as general medicine, which is also concerned with the rest of the anatomy and all its injuries and ailments. Now of course there are dangerously incompetent chiropractors who mess up their patients. There are dangerous incompetents in every other branch of medicine too, to the tune of about 90,000 deaths per year in the US alone. If anything, chiropractors are less likely to damage their patients than a lot of other doctors, because their scope of treatment is so limited. So what’s this got to do with chiropractors in general?
@Leslie You write that “…chiropractic is nothing more or less than cracking knuckles in your shoulders, neck, hips and back”, but that isn’t true. They have a woo system behind the practical application that reminds me of other woo systems that invoke energy flow & the like.
More importantly… I’m not too sure here, not being a philosopher-type myself, but have you employed the Tu Quoque fallacy when you write this or does it come under some other fallacy?: “There are dangerous incompetents in every other branch of medicine too, to the tune of about 90,000 deaths per year in the US alone” – I found it on your website in the section called “Master List of Logical Fallacies”
I suggest you read the comments above & note the ones that explain the problem of chiropractors ‘over-reaching’ beyond their limited medical knowledge. Chiropractors have self-titled themselves as “Doctor” & I think that’s a dishonest elevation of themselves for social acceptance & financial gain. They’re charlatans just for that one little detail never mind the woo too! And they know it.
In point of fact, chiropractic is no more a branch of medicine than homeopathy is a branch of medicine.
Me massaging someone is more medicine than homeopathy, and I’m very bad at massage.
Your definition of “medicine” is absurdly broad and would include kissing and shaking hands.
The critical phrase is “branch of medicine”, which is to say “a branch of a professional science-based discipline”. Chiropractic massage is not part of that discipline. Nor are auto mechanics or reiki. Or homeopathy.
Maybe I didn’t clearly bring the intended irony across. I intentionally chose one of the least applications of “medicine”, a layman’s massage which at least in it’s professional form is an evidence-based medical treatment.
It was meant as an example for the countless things that are more medicine than homeopathy, which produces placebo effects at best. Those also occur by kissing and other positive social contact like the shaking of hands you mentioned.
Given that kissing also trains our immune system by exchanging 80 millions of bacteria, it has a physical component homeopathy lacks (apart from ingesting either carbohydrates or water).
I hope I could clarify my intention to you and that we’re not talking at cross purposes.
I understand how homeopathic remedies (don’t) work.
But you continue to misuse the term “medicine”. Bacteria exchanged during a kiss is not a form of medicine. It is simply an environmental transfer of bacteria. If it can be considered medicine, then so can touching a stick in the back yard. In fact all contacts between a living organism and anything else would be “medicine”. You’ve reduced the word to meaninglessness.
Besides, as I pointed out before, we are talking about “a branch of medicine” which implies a recognized branch of a formal profession. Chiropractic “doctors” like to think of their practice as that. But so do homeopaths. They are both wrong.
Unless someone puts the stick into his or her mouth and has feelings for it like kissing people have, your analogy doesn’t fit. The positive medical effects of kissing are part of medical studies, stick touching is not.
Looking at Merriam-Webster, you talk about definition 2a+b whereas I’m talking about definition 1b and maybe the “art” part of 2a.
We don’t talk about branches. You did and still do while I forked to the broader term medicine. You can’t define what I am talking about.
So we are talking at cross purposes. Now that we both clarified our points, let’s leave it at that instead of moving in circles about terminology.
Mr Dinoff, just another in the long line of Snake Oil Salesmen.